Adam and Eve

[SteveVH]

Can you explain what “Baptism of Desire” is? I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll be graduating from BYU-IDAHO by December and moving back to Pittsburgh and will start RCIA there.

To be honest, I don’t even think Rexburg has a catholic church. and if it did, would they do RCIA classes?

The Catholic Church believes in a merciful God. If we consider a person in a part of the world who has never heard of Christ, much less Baptism, through no fault of his own, we believe that he can still be saved. Only God can read our hearts and only God knows whether or not that person would, if he were made aware, choose to be Baptized. The same would be true of an RCIA candidate who died before Easter Vigil and was not Baptized. We call that Baptism of desire. The same would apply (along with “invincible ignorance”, possibly) in the case of one brought up in a false religion who is now asking questions. If that person is truly seeking the truth (God) and their lack of Christian Baptism is due to ignorance, it could apply there as well.

I cannot imagine that there is not a Catholic parish either in your community or very close by which serves your community. If there is, then they most likely offer RCIA. I would advise you , however, to attend RCIA at a larger parish as they have more resources and better odds of having someone who actually knows their stuff teach you.

You will be in my prayers.

God bless.

 

[TheIrishman]

uppervalleycatholic.com

You can contact them about RCIA and start there. Being so small, they may not have an RCIA group, but the priest or a deacon can always work with you one on one. Then “transfer”, so to speak, to Pittsburgh in December and continue RCIA there.

There are several rites in RCIA, one which brings you into the church as a catechumen. The catechism has this:

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Holy **** there’s a catholic church in rexburg and it’s called St. Patrick’s…This is a sign

 

[RebeccaJ]

Holy **** there’s a catholic church in rexburg and it’s called St. Patrick’s…This is a sign

Even better.

 

[TheIrishman]

The Catholic Church believes in a merciful God. If we consider a person in a part of the world who has never heard of Christ, much less Baptism, through no fault of his own, we believe that he can still be saved. Only God can read our hearts and only God knows whether or not that person would, if he were made aware, choose to be Baptized. The same would be true of an RCIA candidate who died before Easter Vigil and was not Baptized. We call that Baptism of desire. The same would apply (along with “invincible ignorance”, possibly) in the case of one brought up in a false religion who is now asking questions. If that person is truly seeking the truth (God) and their lack of Christian Baptism is due to ignorance, it could apply there as well.

I cannot imagine that there is not a Catholic parish either in your community or very close by which serves your community. If there is, then they most likely offer RCIA. I would advise you , however, to attend RCIA at a larger parish as they have more resources and better odds of having someone who actually knows their stuff teach you.

You will be in my prayers.

God bless.

In your case I think

This is very interesting and very soothing at the same time. It shows me that God is a merciful and a just God. Thank you for sharing this with me.

I actually live near a pretty big Catholic church in Pittsburgh, Sacred Heart Parish in Shadyside. I really would like to start RCIA there but wouldn’t be able to until December. Should I just study on my own for now?

 

[Nicea325]

Want to know how i first started to doubt? I went through the temple back in 2007 for the first time and saw the video’s and such. But while i was there I thought to myself…

“in the beginning, Satan tries to put himself on the same level as God and gets cast out for doing so. But by the end of our lives and journey back to God, we in turn become like God and be gods ourselves? That sounds a lot like Satan’s plan from the beginning, only more cleverly appealing.”

And that’s where it all began.

Wow! Very dangerous. No where and mean no where, does the Eternal God say we can become “like” God. Yes Scripture reads:

be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:48)

Now the above verse does mean God wants us to be his “equal” in substance or His nature.

You are right, it borders Lucifer’s rebellion not to serve, but for him to be served as though He IS God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Holy **** there’s a catholic church in rexburg and it’s called St. Patrick’s…This is a sign

One thing, being at BYU-ID and the “honor code”, it would be wise to speak to a priest about how to go about studying to be received into the Church, while simultaneously protecting your investment in your eduction.

 

[SteveVH]

One thing, being at BYU-ID and the “honor code”, it would be wise to speak to a priest about how to go about studying to be received into the Church, while simultaneously protecting your investment in your education.

Wow. Are non-Mormons allowed to attend BYU? What is the deal with the honor code? One cannot attend university while contemplating changing religions?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow. Are non-Mormons allowed to attend BYU? What is the deal with the honor code? One cannot attend university while contemplating changing religions?

Non-Mormons can attend BYU. For LDS members though, the honor code means staying a faithful Mormon, with a Bishop’s interview to make sure the student is “worthy”.

A definitive action or statement that says you’re leaving Mormonism, could be viewed as making the student not “worthy”, therefore, making them not eligible to attend the school. There was a high profile case a couple of years ago where the student had finished ALL the required coursework but BYU would not issue him the diploma.

 

[SteveVH]

Non-Mormons can attend BYU. For LDS members though, the honor code means staying a faithful Mormon, with a Bishop’s interview to make sure the student is “worthy”.

A definitive action or statement that says you’re leaving Mormonism, could be viewed as making the student not “worthy”, therefore, making them not eligible to attend the school. There was a high profile case a couple of years ago where the student had finished ALL the required coursework but BYU would not issue him the diploma.

Again, external pressure being applied to keep Mormons faithful. Amazing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Again, external pressure being applied to keep Mormons faithful. Amazing.

Yes, they make it difficult to follow conscience.

 

[TheIrishman]

Non-Mormons can attend BYU. For LDS members though, the honor code means staying a faithful Mormon, with a Bishop’s interview to make sure the student is “worthy”.

A definitive action or statement that says you’re leaving Mormonism, could be viewed as making the student not “worthy”, therefore, making them not eligible to attend the school. There was a high profile case a couple of years ago where the student had finished ALL the required coursework but BYU would not issue him the diploma.

I’m not at BYU in provo. I’m at BYU in Idaho, which is even stricter if you can believe it. If i was to become Catholic and this point in my schooling (one more semester left until I graduate) they wouldn’t give me my diploma…

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not at BYU in provo. I’m at BYU in Idaho, which is even stricter if you can believe it. If i was to become Catholic and this point in my schooling (one more semester left until I graduate) they wouldn’t give me my diploma…

I believe it.

 

[mtolympus]

This is what worries me the most. Because I have only been baptized LDS. If I was to die tomorrow, i wouldn’t be washed clean from original sin. What do you think would happen to me? Where would I go?

This is a sincere question

And a very good question.

The atonement of Jesus Christ paid for original sin for ALL:

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

Baptism is a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Our sins, not Adams.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the **baptism of repentance **for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:4-5) (emphasis added)

Jesus appeared to Paul and then sent him to Damascus to learn what he should do. Blinded by the intense light, Saul had to be led to Damascus. There he met Ananias who restored Saul’s vision, and then said to him:

And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16) emphais added

Baptism was to wash away Pauls sins, not Adams.

 

[SteveVH]

And a very good question.

The atonement of Jesus Christ paid for original sin for ALL:

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

Baptism is a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Our sins, not Adams.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the **baptism of repentance **for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:4-5) (emphasis added)

Jesus appeared to Paul and then sent him to Damascus to learn what he should do. Blinded by the intense light, Saul had to be led to Damascus. There he met Ananias who restored Saul’s vision, and then said to him:

And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16) emphais added

Baptism was to wash away Pauls sins, not Adams.

This is a perfect example of how far off the path one can stray when not in communion with the one, true Church.

Very simply, John’s baptism was for the purpose of repentance. Christian baptism in water and the Holy Spirit is for the purpose of remission of sins and new birth. This is how we are “born again”. Christ had no need of baptism of any sort. He had no need to repent (in the case of the Baptism of John) and no need for sins to be forgiven (in the case of Christian baptism). Christ’s baptism was an epiphany, of sorts, revealing the Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all manifested themselves).

As for “original Sin” we know that sin was brought into the world through Adam and passed on to all mankind.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” (Romans 5:12)

As RebeccaJ pointed out in another thread, original sin is not something we “have”, but rather something we are lacking. Baptism restores our relationship with God which was broken in the Garden by cleansing our souls, infusing us with supernatural life and allowing the Holy Spirit two dwell within us once again. The baptism of John cannot be compared to Christian Baptism. They are two different things.

.

 

[mtolympus]

This is a perfect example of how far off the path one can stray when not in communion with the one, true Church.

Or, baptism is the perfect example of why the one true church needed to be restored.

Very simply, John’s baptism was for the purpose of repentance.

John baptised Christ! Christ did not need repentance! Christ was baptised because he has set the perfect example that we should follow.

Christian baptism in water and the Holy Spirit is for the purpose of remission of sins and new birth.

Yes, the remission of our own sins and rebirth.

This is how we are “born again”. Christ had no need of baptism of any sort. He had no need to repent (in the case of the Baptism of John) and no need for sins to be forgiven (in the case of Christian baptism).

So, are you saying Jesus Christ didn’t have a Christian baptism?

As for “original Sin” we know that sin was brought into the world through Adam and passed on to all mankind.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” (Romans 5:12)

Yes, because of Adam a mortal state was passed on to all men and all will all suffer physical death. However, because of the atonement of Jesus Christ all will be made alive. We do not need baptism to overcome the sin of Adam. All will be made alive!

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

As RebeccaJ pointed out in another thread, original sin is not something we “have”, but rather something we are lacking. Baptism restores our relationship with God which was broken in the Garden by cleansing our souls, infusing us with supernatural life and allowing the Holy Spirit two dwell within us once again. The baptism of John cannot be compared to Christian Baptism. They are two different things.

The LDS Christ was baptised by John the baptist.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe it.

That really blows me away.

 

[SteveVH]

John baptised Christ! Christ did not need repentance! Christ was baptised because he has set the perfect example that we should follow.

Did I say something different?

Yes, the remission of our own sins and rebirth.

Agreed. It also restores the relationship broken when Adam disobeyed God (i.e. original sin).

So, are you saying Jesus Christ didn’t have a Christian baptism?

Yes.

Yes, because of Adam a mortal state was passed on to all men and all will all suffer physical death. However, because of the atonement of Jesus Christ all will be made alive. We do not need baptism to overcome the sin of Adam. All will be made alive!

Adam’s sin resulted in spiritual death as well as physical death. Through Baptism, our spiritual life is restored. That is what we lost and that is what we gain. Christ’s redemption of mankind made this possible, but it is only accomplished through Baptism.

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22) (emphasis added)

Be careful here. It is ALL those that are in Christ that will be made alive. We will not be made alive if we reject Christ. We know from Christ himself that not all will be made alive but that some will suffer eternal death (hell). That knowledge must be considered when interpreting a verse such as this.

The LDS Christ was baptised by John the baptist.

Good for you. So was mine.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That really blows me away.

It is a very strict code, one that the students sign to in agreement as part of the admittance process. Students are encouraged to monitor and report each other.

 

[SteveVH]

It is a very strict code, one that the students sign to in agreement as part of the admittance process. Students are encouraged to monitor and report each other.

I am without words.

 

[TheIrishman]

I’ve got another question now that has rose from these discussions.

Steve, you mention that Christ baptism isn’t a Christian baptism, what do you mean by this?

When Christ was born, did he have the same original sin on Him that we have on us? I’m not sure if i’m conveying this question properly so let me know if you understand what i’m asking.

Thanks again for the knowledge.