Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

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Given that the original Adam & Logic thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=785994,

was closed due to the 1,000 posts limit, this 2nd Edition will continue exploring some of the original propositions. In addition, we should pay attention to St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings on Adam and relative issues. The ultimate goal is to demonstrate the real existence of Adam and his spouse Eve, which in turn is the foundation for some necessary Catholic doctrines.

I like the Deductive Method of Reasoning because truth follows truth. The key is that the first truths (axioms) need to be accepted as true. Following propositions or hypotheses need to be demonstrated as truth either by their logical connection to the initial axioms or by proper demonstrations of their truth. While the Deductive Method of Reasoning is my preference, there is a place for the Inductive Method of Reasoning.

Up front, I use the Catholic Church for basic truths. The source is the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
Links. Please read CCC, 18-22 first for the explanation of smaller print.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

General information source is CCC, “The Creator” beginning with paragraph 279; CCC, “Man” beginning with paragraph 355; CCC, “The Fall” beginning with paragraph 385; CCC, 1730-1733; and related cross-references in the margins. Additional information from other sources is appreciated.

Please read and respect the sticky notes at the top of this Forum.

Post 992 in the original Adam & Logic thread gives three working axioms (true statements).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11805951&postcount=992
  1. God as Creator exists.
    Therefore,
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
    Therefore,
  3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
A hearty welcome to all future participants. 😃
 
grannymh said:
Given that the original Adam & Logic thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=785994,

was closed due to the 1,000 posts limit, this 2nd Edition will continue exploring some of the original propositions. In addition, we should pay attention to St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings on Adam and relative issues. The ultimate goal is to demonstrate the real existence of Adam and his spouse Eve, which in turn is the foundation for some necessary Catholic doctrines.

I like the Deductive Method of Reasoning because truth follows truth. The key is that the first truths (axioms) need to be accepted as true. Following propositions or hypotheses need to be demonstrated as truth either by their logical connection to the initial axioms or by proper demonstrations of their truth. While the Deductive Method of Reasoning is my preference, there is a place for the Inductive Method of Reasoning.

Up front, I use the Catholic Church for basic truths. The source is the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
Links. Please read CCC, 18-22 first for the explanation of smaller print.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

General information source is CCC, “The Creator” beginning with paragraph 279; CCC, “Man” beginning with paragraph 355; CCC, “The Fall” beginning with paragraph 385; CCC, 1730-1733; and related cross-references in the margins. Additional information from other sources is appreciated.

Please read and respect the sticky notes at the top of this Forum.

Post 992 in the original Adam & Logic thread gives three working axioms (true statements).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11805951&postcount=992
  1. God as Creator exists.
    Therefore,
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
    Therefore,
  3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
A hearty welcome to all future participants. 😃
Click to expand...
I don’t think #2 follows from #1 because there is no minor premise.

Also, if you are accepting the Catechism as axiomatic, why don’t you just cite the paragraphs that teach what you want to prove?
 
Hello!

*1. God as Creator exists.
Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
Therefore,
3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human. *

Ok, this above can be accepted by many people, not just catholic/christians. So how does it prove (or does it?) that God created one fully human male and one fully human female?

PS
Are you glad I asked a question? lol 😃
 
simpleas said:
Hello!

1. God as Creator exists.
Therefore,
2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
Therefore,
*3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human. *

Ok, this above can be accepted by many people, not just catholic/christians. So how does it prove (or does it?) that God created one fully human male and one fully human female?

PS
Are you glad I asked a question? lol 😃
Click to expand...
Your questions stretch my poor brain. lol So I am glad. 😃

However, dmar198, post 2, has some valid questions which I need to address first.

Regarding your specific question “So how does it prove (or does it?) that God created one fully human male and one fully human female?”

My answer – At the moment I have no clue.
Together, we need to search for additional truths and test them. My gut instinct, or woman’s intuition, tells me that understanding some aspects, never all aspects, of God will lead us to the purpose of our creation. That purpose would be insured for all humanity by descent from one couple.
 
Cause and effect is a true physical phenomenon and a spiritual one too. The human race by observation can verify this phenomenon, eg. You are a product of your parents, and your parents are a product of their parents. This sequence of relationships go back in continuity to the first parents necessarily in the line of succession. If the line of succession were broken we could not regress to our first parents and we wouldn’t exist. When we regress to our first parents either they existed always, and if they existed always then we would have an infinite series of causes , no beginning and no end. Our nature would have to be existence.and infinite. If our nature was existence we would have the fullness of being, and we would not experience any change in our nature. This is contrary to all human experience which is constantly changing, (Potency and Act) Our first parents were given existence, they were not “Existence” Our first parents were caused by The Uncaused Cause, God

Another consideration : We find that we know that we can know, we have the power of reflection, if we existed forever we would have knowledge of ourselves existing forever, again this is contrary to human experience, the criterion of all our knowledge. The fact that we know that we know is the power of our spiritual soul capable of doing something not found in the material world.

God’s actions always are perfect acts (Pure Act) In making Adam and Eve, He made them perfect and even endowed them with gifts of justice and integrity. Also God acts with purpose. He designed Adam and Eve with the properties to propagate the human race, the seed of Adam had all the DNA needed to pass on physical human nature, a given fact. We speak about the fall of Adam, and the consequences of sin, and its effects, again this is confirmed by reality. All in all we find our faith is reasonable. Eve was also part of the plan in the propagation of the human race We find that humans are social creatures, and they communicate, Eve was said to be Adams companion, for Adam was alone. This again shows the needs of the human race, and Gods plan to remedy this need
 
If God didn’t make Adam and Eve perfect and expect them to pass on the seeds of the human race, then God would be incomplete in His purpose and design, and this makes God something less than God, Intelligence is an attribute of God, and God is the sum total of His attributes He makes nothing less than perfect in establishing the human race.
 
ynotzap said:
Cause and effect is a true physical phenomenon and a spiritual one too. The human race by observation can verify this phenomenon, eg. You are a product of your parents, and your parents are a product of their parents. This sequence of relationships go back in continuity to the first parents necessarily in the line of succession. If the line of succession were broken we could not regress to our first parents and we wouldn’t exist. When we regress to our first parents either they existed always, and if they existed always then we would have an infinite series of causes , no beginning and no end. Our nature would have to be existence.and infinite. If our nature was existence we would have the fullness of being, and we would not experience any change in our nature. This is contrary to all human experience which is constantly changing, (Potency and Act) Our first parents were given existence, they were not “Existence” Our first parents were caused by The Uncaused Cause, God

Another consideration : We find that we know that we can know, we have the power of reflection, if we existed forever we would have knowledge of ourselves existing forever, again this is contrary to human experience, the criterion of all our knowledge. The fact that we know that we know is the power of our spiritual soul capable of doing something not found in the material world.

God’s actions always are perfect acts (Pure Act) In making Adam and Eve, He made them perfect and even endowed them with gifts of justice and integrity. Also God acts with purpose. He designed Adam and Eve with the properties to propagate the human race, the seed of Adam had all the DNA needed to pass on physical human nature, a given fact. We speak about the fall of Adam, and the consequences of sin, and its effects, again this is confirmed by reality. All in all we find our faith is reasonable. Eve was also part of the plan in the propagation of the human race We find that humans are social creatures, and they communicate, Eve was said to be Adams companion, for Adam was alone. This again shows the needs of the human race, and Gods plan to remedy this need
Click to expand...
On another site, I am looking at infinite regress in regard to Our Maker. Never thought about infinite regress in humankind. Thank you for that. As a sidebar, I am using the unique rational tools of the human species as something which can be verified by the first principle of the scientific method – observe without prejudice.

You mentioned “If our nature was existence we would have the fullness of being, and we would not experience any change in our nature.” Could it be that if we had the fullness of being, we would not propagate?

Our human experience – Is it possible to connect the dots to one originating couple?
Your last sentences about Adam and his companion Eve may hold the answer.

So many thoughts. Must be Pepsi time. 😃
 
ynotzap said:
If God didn’t make Adam and Eve perfect and expect them to pass on the seeds of the human race, then God would be incomplete in His purpose and design, and this makes God something less than God, Intelligence is an attribute of God, and God is the sum total of His attributes He makes nothing less than perfect in establishing the human race.
Click to expand...
A Thomistic question.

When we use the word perfect – does that mean perfect according to our nature?

God’s purpose for us was to have us share in His divine life here on earth and eternally in the presence of the Beatific Vision. To accomplish that purpose, our nature is a perfect unification of both the material world (decomposing anatomy) and the spiritual world (immortal rational soul).
 
grannymh said:
On another site, I am looking at infinite regress in regard to Our Maker. Never thought about infinite regress in humankind. Thank you for that. As a sidebar, I am using the unique rational tools of the human species as something which can be verified by the first principle of the scientific method – observe without prejudice.

You mentioned “If our nature was existence we would have the fullness of being, and we would not experience any change in our nature.” Could it be that if we had the fullness of being, we would not propagate?

Our human experience – Is it possible to connect the dots to one originating couple?
Your last sentences about Adam and his companion Eve may hold the answer.

So many thoughts. Must be Pepsi time. 😃
Click to expand...
If we had the fullness of being we wouldn’t need to propagate, we could create directly, but we can’t because we can’t give what we don’t have. We wouldn’t be a link in the chain of causes, but be the Primal Cause If we had the fullness of being, all that we could be we would be and not subject to time and change., this means if we are not subject to change then we become Pure Act which is God, Our nature has the characteristics of Potency ( the capacity for change) to the actual change(Act) Our world is in constant change because it does not have the fullness of being, as a matter of fact our nature is “becoming” not full being
 
grannymh said:
A Thomistic question.

When we use the word perfect – does that mean perfect according to our nature?

God’s purpose for us was to have us share in His divine life here on earth and eternally in the presence of the Beatific Vision. To accomplish that purpose, our nature is a perfect unification of both the material world (decomposing anatomy) and the spiritual world (immortal rational soul).
Click to expand...
God’s acts are always perfect, our nature was made perfect, we had all the needs for perfect health of body and soul in the Garden of Eden, but sin was introduced into the world, that perfection was disturbed. Human nature was crippled, grace was lost, ignorance set in, feeling of passion had a strong sway on reason so that humanity doesn,t, always act rationally according to its nature. Jesus came to restore His Father’s kingdom by bringing us His Holy Spirit who was lost by sin. Sin has affected creation physically and spiritually.
 
Jesus is called the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve, this should show some reflection on we having a single parent for humanity. And why would God create many parents for humanity? We would have many first parents? This would counter God’s purpose in so many ways. For example: Humanity got into trouble because of the sin of our first parents. What would happen, if all our first parents were tested, and some sinned, and others didn’t It is understood that all men sin since the fall of our first parents. It would seem the God introduced us into a complicated mess. Then God isn’t God. He is infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, and He is the “I Am, who Am” His Essence is Existence What He creates is perfect, all creation is good, even Satan is good as an existing Angel even though he fell.

Perfection in our physical nature, as I stated has been affected by sin, but even so our movement in our nature is always a movement towards perfection, but our physical nature
can not achieve it because it not supplied the proper physical needs, and as a consequence of sin we experience death. Our spiritual nature also needs grace to bring it back to it’s original state. Jesus came to restore humanity. He conquered death, and there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth.
 
ynotzap said:
God’s acts are always perfect, our nature was made perfect, we had all the needs for perfect health of body and soul in the Garden of Eden, but sin was introduced into the world, that perfection was disturbed. Human nature was crippled, grace was lost, ignorance set in, feeling of passion had a strong sway on reason so that humanity doesn,t, always act rationally according to its nature. Jesus came to restore His Father’s kingdom by bringing us His Holy Spirit who was lost by sin. Sin has affected creation physically and spiritually.
Click to expand...
Understood. Along with post 11 which also has me thinking.

Later on, most likely, the concept of perfect health of body and soul needs to be addressed from the perspective of one Adam. Considering that the health of the soul includes free will, if there were more than one Adam, there is the possibility of division into those who remained in God’s friendship and those who chose to shatter their relationship with their Creator.
 
Granny’s proposed axioms
  1. God as Creator exists.
    Therefore,
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
    Therefore,
  3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
dmar198 said:
I don’t think #2 follows from #1 because there is no minor premise.

Also, if you are accepting the Catechism as axiomatic, why don’t you just cite the paragraphs that teach what you want to prove?
Click to expand...
Good observation about the missing minor premise. Thank you. I should not have used the “therefore”.

When I began preparation for Adam & Logic, I was not thinking about a syllogism format. From what I observed, it seemed that they were somewhat shaky. Thus, I looked for some basic truths which did not necessarily relate to each other with the exception that they all pertained to God as Creator. With the deductive method of reasoning, I could gain additional truths and finally, with the help of CAF posters, we could reach the goal of a living Adam.

Yet, I still had this feeling that something, like evidence, was missing. Perhaps a syllogism would take care of that feeling. Though I do not think I can start with the word “all” as in
  1. All men are mortal.
  2. Socrates is a man.
    3.Therefore, Socrates is mortal.
    (Example from Google)
Is it proper to say.
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. As the Creator, God is all powerful.
  3. Therefore, God as Creator can bring humans into existence and maintain their
    existence.
Regarding this question. " if you are accepting the Catechism as axiomatic, why don’t you just cite the paragraphs that teach what you want to prove?"

I am more interested in open discussions which provide creativity. For example. Considering the present popularity of syllogisms on CAF, perhaps I should use them – provided I can do them correctly.

What syllogisms or kinds of syllogisms would you suggest?
 
ynotzap said:
Jesus is called the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve, this should show some reflection on we having a single parent for humanity. And why would God create many parents for humanity? We would have many first parents? This would counter God’s purpose in so many ways. For example: Humanity got into trouble because of the sin of our first parents. What would happen, if all our first parents were tested, and some sinned, and others didn’t It is understood that all men sin since the fall of our first parents. It would seem the God introduced us into a complicated mess. Then God isn’t God. He is infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, and He is the “I Am, who Am” His Essence is Existence What He creates is perfect, all creation is good, even Satan is good as an existing Angel even though he fell.

Perfection in our physical nature, as I stated has been affected by sin, but even so our movement in our nature is always a movement towards perfection, but our physical nature
can not achieve it because it not supplied the proper physical needs, and as a consequence of sin we experience death. Our spiritual nature also needs grace to bring it back to it’s original state. Jesus came to restore humanity. He conquered death, and there will be a new Heaven and a New Earth.
Click to expand...
Who is the single parent of humanity? God or Adam. God can be the creator of Adam, and be Adams parent, but Adam then needs his Eve to become our first parents, not parent?
 
simpleas said:
Who is the single parent of humanity? God or Adam. God can be the creator of Adam, and be Adams parent, but Adam then needs his Eve to become our first parents, not parent?
Click to expand...
This has a spiritual meaning: By Adam sin came into the world, and the world was lost, by the New Adam Jesus Christ the world was redeemed, born again. But it always refers to a human, an individual in the human sense and this points to our first parents. It does not make Jesus a human to take Adam’s place You can say as an analogy that we are products of a single parent, God our Father, for God can bring us into existence. But when we beget children in the natural sense, it takes two to beget a child. Multiplicity belongs to the material physical world, part outside part. Such is not the case with God. So its very reasonable to believe that our begining came for one couple in coopeation with God’s creative act called Divine Concurrence

My use of “single parent” should have been " one couple, parents" first parents, but accidentally it brought up and interesting point.
 
:twocents:

At the Centre of all that is, was and will be, we find the Word incarnate.

The life of Jesus Christ on earth is the fulfillment of history; its meaning is found in Him - the one true vine.
Everything before and after points inward to where God from eternity, Himself entered into His creation.

Scripture reveals God and the nature of His relationship with man in history.

Genesis is a revelation of God as creator, and of the presence of the Word at the very Centre of what constitutes a right relationship with Him.
It is Christ, the Word Himself who is at the Centre of the Garden.
There is the symbolism of the wood of the trees and of the cross,
but more than this it, in the nature of the two trees, we find Jesus:
  • the Tree of Good and Evil - He who is Love and the only One to truly sit in judgement.
  • the Tree of Eternal Life - our Saviour, by whose sacrifice none of us need perish.
    Once God, Christ is no longer the centre of our being, having appropriated what is God’s and not ours, we are lost.
 
ynotzap said:
This has a spiritual meaning: By Adam sin came into the world, and the world was lost, by the New Adam Jesus Christ the world was redeemed, born again. But it always refers to a human, an individual in the human sense and this points to our first parents. It does not make Jesus a human to take Adam’s place You can say as an analogy that we are products of a single parent, God our Father, for God can bring us into existence. But when we beget children in the natural sense, it takes two to beget a child. Multiplicity belongs to the material physical world, part outside part. Such is not the case with God. So its very reasonable to believe that our begining came for one couple in coopeation with God’s creative act called Divine Concurrence

My use of “single parent” should have been " one couple, parents" first parents, but accidentally it brought up and interesting point.
Click to expand...
Ok thanks for explaining that. We say God our creator, is first and foremost our father.

In one of your preivous posts you asked why would God create many parents. This got me thinking.

If I remember from A&L 1 Grannymh only used genesis 1-3. But if we look at Gen 6 we are told of sons of God and daughters of men. That the sons of God had children to the daughters of men.
So the daughters would have decended from the first two parents, but given birth to children who in part came from the sons of God. So there could be or seems to be a break from pure decent of A&E for some humans…

I came across this from wikipedia : (most of you probably know of this)

Judaism[edit]

*In the first creation narrative (Elohim) account, it says male and female [Elohim] created them (Genesis 1:27), which has been interpreted to imply simultaneous creation of the man and the woman. Whereas the second creation account states that YHWH created Eve from Adam’s rib, because he was lonely (Genesis 2:18 ff.). Thus to resolve this apparent discrepancy, some medieval rabbis suggested that Eve from the second account, and the woman of the Elohim account, were two separate individuals: Eve and Lilith.

Midrash Rabbah Genesis VIII:1 interprets “male and female He created them” to mean that God originally created Adam as a hermaphrodite. In this way, adam was bodily and spiritually male and female. God later decides that “it is not good for adam to be alone,” and creates the separate beings, Adam and Eve. This promotes the idea of two people joining together to achieve a union of the two separate spirits.

The creation of Eve, according to Rabbi Joshua, is that:“God deliberated from what member He would create woman, and He reasoned with Himself thus: I must not create her from Adam’s head, for she would be a proud person, and hold her head high. If I create her from the eye, then she will wish to pry into all things; if from the ear, she will wish to hear all things; if from the mouth, she will talk much; if from the heart, she will envy people; if from the hand, she will desire to take all things; if from the feet, she will be a gadabout. Therefore I will create her from the member which is hid, that is the rib, which is not even seen when man is naked.”[32]

According to the Midrash of Genesis Rabba and other later sources, either Cain had a twin sister, and Abel had two twin sisters, or Cain had a twin sister named Lebuda, and Abel a twin sister named Qelimath. The traditional Jewish belief is that Eve is buried in the Cave of Machpelah.*

I never knew of the belief of two wives for Adam! or any of the rest of the above…
 
I’ll try again I hope I can repeat what I said.
If we had many first parents, then we would have many free wills, and if we had many free wills it may be possible that some would pass the test and others wouldn’t who then would represent humanity? Some might exist as sinners, others as saints with no sin? Humanity was completely affected as the whole human race, not part of the human race, so it would seem that one couple, Adam and Eve would be sufficient to represent the whole human race.

Another consideration is that God can not create an infallible human. Infallibility belongs to God alone, it is one of His attributes,and God and His attributes are One, He is His attributes. Humans are given infallibility as an endowment with divine assistance to the teaching Church, not to an individual, or human nature. Humans are fallible, and because they are somewhere down the line someone inevitably is going to sin, and Satan is a reality and more intelligent than any human without the grace of God to keep him from making mistakes (sin) Our Father knew this, so how resolve this dilemma? He sent His Son Jesus, who took on human nature and became God-man, who was incapable of sin, and death couldn’t keep Him. He represented the human race to the Father, and the Father listened to His Son
So that the situation of Adam and Eve being the first parents of humanity is logical considering the state of humanity.
 
ynotzap said:
I’ll try again I hope I can repeat what I said.
If we had many first parents, then we would have many free wills, and if we had many free wills it may be possible that some would pass the test and others wouldn’t who then would represent humanity? Some might exist as sinners, others as saints with no sin? Humanity was completely affected as the whole human race, not part of the human race, so it would seem that one couple, Adam and Eve would be sufficient to represent the whole human race.

Another consideration is that God can not create an infallible human. Infallibility belongs to God alone, it is one of His attributes,and God and His attributes are One, He is His attributes. Humans are given infallibility as an endowment with divine assistance to the teaching Church, not to an individual, or human nature. Humans are fallible, and because they are somewhere down the line someone inevitably is going to sin, and Satan is a reality and more intelligent than any human without the grace of God to keep him from making mistakes (sin) Our Father knew this, so how resolve this dilemma? He sent His Son Jesus, who took on human nature and became God-man, who was incapable of sin, and death couldn’t keep Him. He represented the human race to the Father, and the Father listened to His Son
So that the situation of Adam and Eve being the first parents of humanity is logical considering the state of humanity.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you mean by “many freewills” Freewill is being able to choose for ourself. God creating two first humans, gave them freewill, also it seems the angels too had freewill, so if there were other parents, they too would have freewill, none could be ordered will towards good or evil.

So who are the sons of God and the daughters of men?
 
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