Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

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Consider that Adam and Eve were the prototypical humans and necessary for our existence. God created them, to procreate themselves.


  1. *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
    *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
    *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
    *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
    *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
    *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
 
The soul is a complete spirtual entity when God creates it. It the source of all the activity of the body. When it is created, it inherits the consequences of original sin and it’s effect. this affected the powers of the soul, which are “intelligence” the power to know, and the will the power to make choices. The soul is a perfect entity in it’s spiritual nature, but not perfect in the state of its powers. Because of OS, and it’s effects it left these powers diminished. Ignorance of the truth was one effect, weakness of will was another, the sway of feelings over intelligence was another. Jesus said "Unless a man be born again of the Spirit and water he can not enter the kingdom of Heaven
this means that man can not attain that knowledge of the truth, and that strengh of will that he will need to reach his final end which is God.
Baptism reinstates us into the friendship of God again and makes us children of God, it also give us the Holy Spirit who gives us sanctifying grace by the powers of Faith, Hope, and Charity, the theological virtues that empower us to live virtuous and holy lives The intellect is enlightened with the truth, and the will is empowered with strength to follow the truth, and thus attain to God At this point the soul is purified, and made perfect through its powers, and it becomes sanctified through its powers and the work of the Holy Spirit. The soul does not come into the world sanctified, made holy, but it is complete in it’s nature. It’s condition is “fallen” spiritually handicapped without the grace of God
 
Aloysium said:
:twocents:

When we are conceived, God gives the world a new spiritual soul: all that constitutes our individual ability to relate in this fallen world in embryonic form - alive and miraculous.

As to the soul’s state at conception, I would go by:
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That is the words that stand out to me, the kingdom of God belongs to the children, how could it, if the childrens soul is affected by the sin of Adam? Jesus spoke to adults concerning how they were living and sinning in the eyes of God. But the children are innocent of sin until the age of reason.

I read a example of another way some believe when the soul is given. The baby in the womb is not a human being until it is born, once born the baby receives the soul then. I would disagree with that. But thinking on God giving the breath of life to Adam and our first contact with life out of the womb is oxygen, breath, life, I can see why they think this.
 
buffalo said:
Consider that Adam and Eve were the prototypical humans and necessary for our existence. God created them, to procreate themselves.


  1. *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
    *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
    *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
    *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
    *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
    *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
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  1. Not to sound like a broken record, 5 and 6 is what I’m thinking on. God gives each of us an individual soul. Created by him and from him, which is our own spiritual connection with our divine creator. To me our soul can’t have been given from our God lacking grace.
 
simpleas said:
Not to sound like a broken record, 5 and 6 is what I’m thinking on. God gives each of us an individual soul. Created by him and from him, which is our own spiritual connection with our divine creator. To me our soul can’t have been given from our God lacking grace.
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Perhaps the real question is –

What is the difference between grace, either Sanctifying or Actual, and God’s life in one’s soul?

Another question –

Can the soul exist without God’s unique presence there?
I am not asking if God as Creator maintains the presence of His creatures. I am referring to what happens when a mortal sin is committed. Does our soul disappear?

Going back to your post 35
It was this piece :

“… it is evident that original sin in Adam’s descendants has not the character of personal guilt. It is the privation of sanctifying grace… .” Privation means the lack of what ought to be there. So when we speak of transmission of original sin, it would be more accurate to speak of non-transmission of sanctifying grace.

In my opinion, the author was assuming that readers would understand the whole meaning of “privation of sanctifying grace.” In other words, here is a subsequent question --What accompanies God when He is present in the soul?
 
To be like a child Jesus meant, that a child is simple, and when its parents out of love take the child by the hand, and the child lets the parent lead it across a busy street to protect it the child signifies in a simple way it’s trust in it’s parents. A simple Faith that we all should have, instead of being involved in intellectual complexity before we reach a complete understanding of our Faith. Can you imagine a simple child asking its parents “Why do I have to hold your hand when I cross the street? I won’t do so, until I understand? Jesus said when referring to children " these children enter the kingdom easier, than others because of their simple acceptance of Faith” paraphrasing

Forget the idea that the soul is received at the birth of the child, when it takes its first breadth of fresh air. That baby is fully alive in the womb, the souls power is immediately active in the development of the fetus, it is causing the fertilized ovum to mature This is an erroneous logic that pro-abortionists use to justify abortion
 
grannymh said:
Perhaps the real question is –

What is the difference between grace, either Sanctifying or Actual, and God’s life in one’s soul?

Another question –

Can the soul exist without God’s unique presence there?
I am not asking if God as Creator maintains the presence of His creatures. I am referring to what happens when a mortal sin is committed. Does our soul disappear?

Going back to your post 35
It was this piece :

“… it is evident that original sin in Adam’s descendants has not the character of personal guilt. It is the privation of sanctifying grace… .” Privation means the lack of what ought to be there. So when we speak of transmission of original sin, it would be more accurate to speak of non-transmission of sanctifying grace.

In my opinion, the author was assuming that readers would understand the whole meaning of “privation of sanctifying grace.” In other words, here is a subsequent question --What accompanies God when He is present in the soul?
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I should have said, Sanctifying grace rather than grace when I said God gives us a soul without grace. I see the difference between actual grace and sanctifying grace.
Because of Adams sin SG was lost for all of us.
The soul created by God at conception can have grace, but not sanctifying grace, hense the need for baptism. For the soul to be reborn into the new creation.
I just struggle to think of God giving a soul to a human without SG at conception, I still see Adam’s loss of SG as his own loss because we do not receive our soul from Adam.

God gave Adam a soul with SG in the beginning, but he still could choose to stay in that state or go against it. We don’t get to choose, we are told we do not have SG when we are born, that we don’t have the life of God within us.
It seems wrong to think that God doesn’t give us SG the moment we are conceived, like he couldn’t give us share in his life because of what Adam did, when Adam was just a creature and no where near as powerful as his God.

No our souls don’t disappear when we are in mortal sin. Our souls can never die.

Yes “privation of sanctifying grace.” means lack of…so if something is lacking, it is less than perfect imo, that is all I meant when I pointed that piece out. 🙂
 
simpleas said:
I just struggle to think of God giving a soul to a human without SG at conception, I still see Adam’s loss of SG as his own loss because we do not receive our soul from Adam.
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This CCC paragraph has a good explanation especially the parts which Iput in bold.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.** But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.** By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
 
grannymh said:
This CCC paragraph has a good explanation especially the parts which Iput in bold.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.** But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.** By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
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Ok thanks for quoting the CCC. 👍
 
grannymh said:
Post 992 in the original Adam & Logic thread gives three working axioms (true statements).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11805951&postcount=992
  1. God as Creator exists.
    Therefore,
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
    Therefore,
  3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
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If we remove the “therefore”, we would have three coherent statements of truth.
Do I hear any objections?
  1. God as Creator exists.
  2. God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.
  3. God as Creator interacts personally with each individual human.
Point 2 would follow Point 1 because the act of “creating” includes bringing something into existence and, according to Catholicism, the Creator maintains existence. (Information Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, “The Mystery of Creation”, paragraphs 295-301)

As I review Point 3, I wonder if an explanation is needed for the transition from general creation to the specific creation of humankind. The objective of this thread is to logically demonstrate the specific existence of Adam. Considering all the objections to the reality of Adam, it seems important to look at Adam from the Creator’s point of view in Point 2.
 
It is believed that Adam was the first human God created. And logically, through the phenomenon of Cause and effect if we go back to the first person (Adam) in the line of human species we find the same human nature- body and soul, we find that we share a common humanity, even though we are individually unique.

In the design of human nature we find that we are autonomous, free acting agents with our own intelligence, and will, the spiritual powers of the soul. The intelligence of man was designed to pursue and acquire the truth, and the will was designed to acquire the good. happiness. Both of these objects are spiritual, and find them united in God, who is both the Truth and the Good. He satiates the intellect and the will with Himself, and no material reality can do the same. This can only happen when man has a relationship with God, and this includes the whole human race, and every individual that makes it up. What was intended for Adam, was intended for his posterity.

Adam was created a perfect man endowed with sanctifying grace ( a personal relationship with God,) , a body that impervious to sickness and death. With all the means to sustain it in that condition. He was endowed with the gift of integrity, with a mind, and will in control of his passions, he suffered no corruption of body and soul. Each individual was designed to share in Adams blessings, The needs of Adam and his posterity are ultimately spiritual. and this need has to be permanent, not transient. If they were transient, then happiness would be incomplete. Every thing in this world is transient, and we were not designed to find our complete truth, and good in this material world.
God did promise a Redeemer to bring this ultimate spiritual need in us Through and by this Redeemer we now can have this relationship with God. Jesus was born of a woman who was like all of us the posterity of Adam, but she was spared the fallen condition of Adam and Eve.for her special part in the redemption of the human race. If we observe humanity in action you will find this fallen state of man to be very obvious, intelligent beings doing many many irrational things, you will find disunity where you should find unity, you will find hate where there should be love, you will find war where there should be peace and prosperity. You will find Satan, where there should be God, the same individual spiritual being that tempted Adam and Eve to break their relationship with God. Jesus Christ came to establish again that original relationship with God through sanctifying grace.
 
grannymh said:
. . . As I review Point 3, I wonder if an explanation is needed for the transition from general creation to the specific creation of humankind. The objective of this thread is to logically demonstrate the specific existence of Adam. Considering all the objections to the reality of Adam, it seems important to look at Adam from the Creator’s point of view in Point 2.
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Just a couple of comments:
  • It seems more a matter of “relationship” than “interaction”. Ynotzap effectively describes the particular qualities of our nature that were created in the image of God. It is not stated directly, so I would add to the list, the capacity for love. God wishes to engage us in a loving relationship, so much so that He became one of us and sacrificed Himself that we might be reconciled
  • I would also emphasize that our individual uniqueness is something that we share as central to our being persons. In dying on the cross Jesus takes on all sin and suffering onto Himself; it is not the pain of thirty-forty billion people but rather what each one of us is likely to experience at some point in our lives. God relates to us, as He related to Adam, and then to Adam and Eve, individually and together, through His church.
 
ynotzap said:
It is believed that Adam was the first human God created. And logically, through the phenomenon of Cause and effect if we go back to the first person (Adam) in the line of human species we find the same human nature- body and soul, we find that we share a common humanity, even though we are individually unique.

In the design of human nature we find that we are autonomous, free acting agents with our own intelligence, and will, the spiritual powers of the soul. The intelligence of man was designed to pursue and acquire the truth, and the will was designed to acquire the good. happiness. Both of these objects are spiritual, and find them united in God, who is both the Truth and the Good. He satiates the intellect and the will with Himself, and no material reality can do the same. This can only happen when man has a relationship with God, and this includes the whole human race, and every individual that makes it up. What was intended for Adam, was intended for his posterity.

Adam was created a perfect man endowed with sanctifying grace ( a personal relationship with God,) , a body that impervious to sickness and death. With all the means to sustain it in that condition. He was endowed with the gift of integrity, with a mind, and will in control of his passions, he suffered no corruption of body and soul. Each individual was designed to share in Adams blessings, The needs of Adam and his posterity are ultimately spiritual. and this need has to be permanent, not transient. If they were transient, then happiness would be incomplete. Every thing in this world is transient, and we were not designed to find our complete truth, and good in this material world.
God did promise a Redeemer to bring this ultimate spiritual need in us Through and by this Redeemer we now can have this relationship with God. Jesus was born of a woman who was like all of us the posterity of Adam, but she was spared the fallen condition of Adam and Eve.for her special part in the redemption of the human race. If we observe humanity in action you will find this fallen state of man to be very obvious, intelligent beings doing many many irrational things, you will find disunity where you should find unity, you will find hate where there should be love, you will find war where there should be peace and prosperity. You will find Satan, where there should be God, the same individual spiritual being that tempted Adam and Eve to break their relationship with God. Jesus Christ came to establish again that original relationship with God through sanctifying grace.
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How indeed was our first parents perfect? They could not have been perfect, because they still fell to the temptation of the devil. The same temptations we experience now and again.
They may not have been in a state of SG either in their human condition, that is unless their relationship with God was very different from ours.
Sometimes when people describe Adam being perfect, it sounds like he was a God himself.
 
simpleas said:
How indeed was our first parents perfect? . . . Sometimes when people describe Adam being perfect, it sounds like he was a God himself.
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Thank you for your observations.

:twocents:

Adam was perfect as God made him.
Through free will we participate in the creation of our destiny.
We would have been truly perfect had we chosen God from the beginning.
We cannot be made to love, we must give it.
We chose to put ourselves at the Centre of our being-in-creation, where God is: self-interest where there must be love.
Christ came to save and redeem us.
In taking up His yoke, we become more Christ-like.
He is the Way to becoming perfect as truly loving beings, incapable of sin, as we will be in heaven.
 
Aloysium said:
Thank you for your observations.

:twocents:

Adam was perfect as God made him.
Through free will we participate in the creation of our destiny.
We would have been truly perfect had we chosen God from the beginning.
We cannot be made to love, we must give it.
We chose to put ourselves at the Centre of our being-in-creation, where God is: self-interest where there must be love.
Christ came to save and redeem us.
In taking up His yoke, we become more Christ-like.
He is the Way to becoming perfect as truly loving beings, incapable of sin, as we will be in heaven.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

So Adam was never perfect because he didn’t choose God. 🤷

If when you say Adam was perfect as God made him you mean it as we would say, a new born is perfect in innocents/body (just as God allows)
But he wasn’t perfect in the way we think we can be perfect, (free from sin and in a state of SG) We can be free from sin, but still fall, sounds exactly like our first parents. Unless we make them out to be supernatural first and then when they fall they become what human nature is now.
 
simpleas said:
Thanks.

So Adam was never perfect because he didn’t choose God. 🤷

If when you say Adam was perfect as God made him you mean it as we would say, a new born is perfect in innocents/body (just as God allows)
But he wasn’t perfect in the way we think we can be perfect, (free from sin and in a state of SG) We can be free from sin, but still fall, sounds exactly like our first parents. Unless we make them out to be supernatural first and then when they fall they become what human nature is now.
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You are taking this in a direction that is unfamiliar to me.
I would stop using the word “perfect” if it were causing me this sort of trouble.
The whole point is to become a more loving person:
to grow in Christ - that is the reality we should be living.
I don’t know how to respond to your concerns.
 
simpleas said:
Thanks.

So Adam was never perfect because he didn’t choose God. 🤷

If when you say Adam was perfect as God made him you mean it as we would say, a new born is perfect in innocents/body (just as God allows)
But he wasn’t perfect in the way we think we can be perfect, (free from sin and in a state of SG) We can be free from sin, but still fall, sounds exactly like our first parents. Unless we make them out to be supernatural first and then when they fall they become what human nature is now.
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Perfection admits of degrees We must qualify what we mean by physical perfection and spiritual perfection. A baby is baby to that degree it is perfect in its nature, but we know that the baby is going to be an adult when it reaches maturity, then we say that the baby has reached the peak of its physical perfection. So too when the human soul is created it is perfect to that degree in its nature, but we know that when the soul has reached the fulfilment of its capacities, then we say the soul is in the state of perfection to that degree

What are the capacities of the soul? The movement from ignorance to knowledge, this involves the power of the soul, intelligence. The movement of the will from a lesser good, to a greater good, and like the body it’s maturity is acquired in degrees. The soul is incapable of achieving what it doesn’t have it must receive it from God, and that is grace that makes it possible for the soul by the practice of virtue to reach perfection. And that varies with every person, that’s why Jesus said "…in Heaven there are many mansions, meaning there are many degrees of spiritual perfection. When I stated that Adam was a perfect man, I did not mean he reached the summit of spiritual perfection. Although I implied that he was in a state of physical perfection, he didn’t start as a baby. He was in a state of spiritual perfection to some degree

Since the soul is not limited by physical limitations, it’s capacities for perfection is limitless. eg. the more we love the greater capacity we have to have God indwell in us, the more we empty ourselves of self, the more God can fill us with Himself, and He does sustain us infinitely, so eternity is the limit, this involves all degrees of spiritual perfection. No one can exhaust God.

So since Adams fall the human race was crippled in its spiritual perfection, and incapable to have what it needed for spiritual perfection, and that is grace, in short the Holy Spirit, and we can only receive Him through Jesus Christ who merited Him for us, the gift of love from the Father, the message of salvation.
 
Aloysium said:
You are taking this in a direction that is unfamiliar to me.
I would stop using the word “perfect” if it were causing me this sort of trouble.
The whole point is to become a more loving person:
to grow in Christ - that is the reality we should be living.
I don’t know how to respond to your concerns.
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Thanks, I’ve been told before to stop using the word perfect :o But I was interested in why people will say A&E were “perfect”. Maybe its because they started out with the gifts etc, and we are told that we don’t.

I agree whole heartedly that we should grow in Christ and become more loving people.
 
ynotzap said:
Perfection admits of degrees We must qualify what we mean by physical perfection and spiritual perfection. A baby is baby to that degree it is perfect in its nature, but we know that the baby is going to be an adult when it reaches maturity, then we say that the baby has reached the peak of its physical perfection. So too when the human soul is created it is perfect to that degree in its nature, but we know that when the soul has reached the fulfilment of its capacities, then we say the soul is in the state of perfection to that degree

What are the capacities of the soul? The movement from ignorance to knowledge, this involves the power of the soul, intelligence. The movement of the will from a lesser good, to a greater good, and like the body it’s maturity is acquired in degrees. The soul is incapable of achieving what it doesn’t have it must receive it from God, and that is grace that makes it possible for the soul by the practice of virtue to reach perfection. And that varies with every person, that’s why Jesus said "…in Heaven there are many mansions, meaning there are many degrees of spiritual perfection. When I stated that Adam was a perfect man, I did not mean he reached the summit of spiritual perfection. Although I implied that he was in a state of physical perfection, he didn’t start as a baby. He was in a state of spiritual perfection to some degree
Since the soul is not limited by physical limitations, it’s capacities for perfection is limitless. eg. the more we love the greater capacity we have to have God indwell in us, the more we empty ourselves of self, the more God can fill us with Himself, and He does sustain us infinitely, so eternity is the limit, this involves all degrees of spiritual perfection. No one can exhaust God.

So since Adams fall the human race was crippled in its spiritual perfection, and incapable to have what it needed for spiritual perfection, and that is grace, in short the Holy Spirit, and we can only receive Him through Jesus Christ who merited Him for us, the gift of love from the Father, the message of salvation.
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You said he was in relationship with God - SG. The SG I have come to know means graces for our soul, so that we can be strong in spirit, control our desires/actions etc. We receive SG at baptism, because we are not born with it due to O.S.

To what degree could Adam have a spiritual relationship with God? God made him whole in body and spirit, with gifts to live in love with God, himself and Eve?

PS. I’m not trying to argue or debate this as I’m no good at it, my questions come mostly from my seeking mind, and I’m interested in how others understand with their own thinking (with alittle help from the CCC of course) 👍
 
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