Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[ynotzap]

Adam was not united to God completely, if he was than he would have had union with God in the Beatific Vision, in infinite ecstacy , This is the purpose God has for all of us, to be united with Him and share His life. Adam had not completed his spiritual fulfillment as yet, even though he was in the state of sanctifying grace before the fall. He was disposed to advance in grace, but he failed the test. No one can be united completely with God and live a mortal life. Ecstacy means being out of one self, overpowered with joy and happiness, bliss and the mortal body could not sustain this condition without the help of God. Some saints have experienced a certain degree of ecstacy, but not complete union with God which takes place after we die.in the state of sanctifying grace. I hope this doesn’t present new problem for you. The Beatific vision is to see God as He is

 

[grannymh]

You said he was in relationship with God - SG. The SG I have come to know means graces for our soul, so that we can be strong in spirit, control our desires/actions etc. We receive SG at baptism, because we are not born with it due to O.S.

But, from where and how do the sanctifying graces appear?

To what degree could Adam have a spiritual relationship with God? God made him whole in body and spirit, with gifts to live in love with God, himself and Eve?

In reality, what would be the top degree of our own relationship with God?

Note: Creative answers are acceptable.

 

[ynotzap]

But, from where and how do the sanctifying graces appear?

In reality, what would be the top degree of our own relationship with God?

Note: Creative answers are acceptable.

Our individual top degree of our relationship with God would be: To love God with our whole heart and soul, and with all our strength, and to love our neighbor as our self. If we say that we love God, and don’t love our neighbor we are liars.

 

[simpleas]

Adam was not united to God completely, if he was than he would have had union with God in the Beatific Vision, in infinite ecstacy , This is the purpose God has for all of us, to be united with Him and share His life. Adam had not completed his spiritual fulfillment as yet, even though he was in the state of sanctifying grace before the fall. He was disposed to advance in grace, but he failed the test. No one can be united completely with God and live a mortal life. Ecstacy means being out of one self, overpowered with joy and happiness, bliss and the mortal body could not sustain this condition without the help of God. Some saints have experienced a certain degree of ecstacy, but not complete union with God which takes place after we die.in the state of sanctifying grace. I hope this doesn’t present new problem for you. The Beatific vision is to see God as He is

I hope this doesn’t present new problem for you

Ok we would think that Adam hadn’t completed his spiritual fulfillment as yet, because, he failed.
I remember reading that we as mortal beings would not be able to see God, But, Adam had the gift of immortality.
Our bodies will die, but before sin, they were immortal.

From CCC : 377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

So how if one is free from concupiscence, then able to fall into and commit sin?

 

[grannymh]

I hope this doesn’t present new problem for you

Ok we would think that Adam hadn’t completed his spiritual fulfillment as yet, because, he failed.
I remember reading that we as mortal beings would not be able to see God, But, Adam had the gift of immortality.
Our bodies will die, but before sin, they were immortal.

From CCC : 377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

So how if one is free from concupiscence, then able to fall into and commit sin?

Not sure how to put this. Concupiscence refers to desires for real things which exist in time and space like money and sex. Even excessive pride in oneself can be considered real because the person is a real being who is choosing to change, for the worse, his relationship with God. For example. Adam, in pride of self, choose himself over God. The status of Adam’s self is real in time and space. One could say that Adam had the opportunity to abandon his own mastery of self in order to be equal to his Maker.

Just because a person is free from concupiscence does not make the neighbor’s money disappear. Just because Adam being free from concupiscence does not make God subject to a human being.

To put it simply, Adam freely ignored his own mastery of himself. Adam, like us, was capable of ignoring God’s commandments. Adam’s freedom from concupiscence did not cause the forbidden fruit to rot on the tree.

 

[simpleas]

But, from where and how do the sanctifying graces appear?

In reality, what would be the top degree of our own relationship with God?

Note: Creative answers are acceptable.

From Prayer, sacraments of the church. But we are talking about Adam’s spiritual relationship, the first to know God.

I’m not sure what would be the top degree, there may not be a degree at all. Like our relationship could be infinite?

 

[simpleas]

Not sure how to put this. Concupiscence refers to desires for real things which exist in time and space like money and sex. Even excessive pride in oneself can be considered real because the person is a real being who is choosing to change, for the worse, his relationship with God. For example. Adam, in pride of self, choose himself over God. The status of Adam’s self is real in time and space. One could say that Adam had the opportunity to abandon his own mastery of self in order to be equal to his Maker.

Just because a person is free from concupiscence does not make the neighbor’s money disappear. Just because Adam being free from concupiscence does not make God subject to a human being.

To put it simply, Adam freely ignored his own mastery of himself. Adam, like us, was capable of ignoring God’s commandments. Adam’s freedom from concupiscence did not cause the forbidden fruit to rot on the tree.

Thanks.

The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

I thought self-assertion was a form of pride in a way, it’s an expression of ones own importants, so Adam being ordered in his being and free from that desire to express his own importants still didn’t move him towards God…

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.

The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

I thought self-assertion was a form of pride in a way, it’s an expression of ones own importants, so Adam being ordered in his being and free from that desire to express his own importants still didn’t move him towards God…

Re-reading Genesis, chapter 2, we see Adam’s direct relationship with God. Is that what you meant by Adam’s movement toward God?

 

[grannymh]

From Prayer, sacraments of the church. But we are talking about Adam’s spiritual relationship, the first to know God.

I’m not sure what would be the top degree, there may not be a degree at all. Like our relationship could be infinite?

It looks like degree is not the right word for what I was thinking.

The source of Sanctifying Grace is the presence of God within our soul. That is why we often refer to being in the State of Sanctifying Grace. By sharing in the life of the Holy Trinity, we are able to receive the Sacramental graces given to us by God. Sanctifying grace is our spiritual relationship with God. Sanctifying Grace, also known as Original Holiness, was Adam’s original spiritual relationship with God. Being in the State of Sanctifying Grace is the opposite of being in the State of Mortal Sin.

Sanctifying Grace differs from actual grace because it is the life of the soul which means that we are sharing in God’s life just as Adam did. Actual graces refer to God’s interventions in our lives, that is actual graces can be the beginning of conversion or repentance. In reality, it is difficult to pick apart these graces. One way is to consider Sanctifying Grace as the State of sharing God’s life.

The fact that Adam was created in the State of Sanctifying Grace, that is, he was created in a friendship relationship with God points to the fact that there had to be only one Adam. One Adam insures that all humankind is capable of a friendship relationship with God. God calls all of us to share in His life because all of us belong to the first human parent.

(Information source. Grace, CCC Index)

 

[simpleas]

Re-reading Genesis, chapter 2, we see Adam’s direct relationship with God. Is that what you meant by Adam’s movement toward God?

From Genesis 2, what I get from the writings is how God made Adam/Eve, the command not eat from the tree of knowledge of g&e etc.
Its like the foundation of the beginning, but not a direct relationship, only a relationship in the sense of how God created the first humans.

From Genesis 3.I get more from the writings about the relationship. There maybe more to dig into with regards to relationship. If Adam was sharing in the life of God,the way we know it, it is true he could still have chosen good or evil, but to me that means he was just like us, he had the same gifts to begin with. His soul was given freely from God, just like we are given a soul freely. He let his trust in his God die when he decided to go his own way. We can do the same in some ways, when we think we can “play” God.
Adam having a freedom from disordered desire could not be true in a sense, because we know he choose himself over God.
He must have been inclined to want what he shouldn’t, and when it came to the act of eating from the tree, the temptation was too much, he moved away from God to prefer his own action.

So how does this break our relationship with God within our soul if we as humans now, sound exactly like Adam and Eve in the beginning?

 

[grannymh]

Adam having a freedom from disordered desire could not be true in a sense, because we know he choose himself over God.

Did Adam know about the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Did having freedom from disordered desire prevent Adam from seeing the tree described as good for food, pleasing to eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom?

(Information source. Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 6)

Additional questions to consider. Did Adam’s basic nature have free will like current basic human nature? If no, then Adam would not be a fully-complete human. If yes, does Adam’s “mastery of self” remove intellect and free will from his human nature?

(CCC 377)

 

[simpleas]

Did Adam know about the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Did having freedom from disordered desire prevent Adam from seeing the tree described as good for food, pleasing to eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom?

(Information source. Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 6)

Additional questions to consider. Did Adam’s basic nature have free will like current basic human nature? If no, then Adam would not be a fully-complete human. If yes, does Adam’s “mastery of self” remove intellect and free will from his human nature?

(CCC 377)

1st= Yes.

2nd= No.

3rd= Yes.
B.= No.

But I don’t see how these questions “prove” Adam could be free from disordered passions, and still sin.

Maybe its the wording of the CCC that leads my thinking along the lines that had Adam been ordered in his nature, how on earth could he will his own desire over God.

2nd = No. He could see that the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for knowledge, but since he had a friendship with God and was ordered in his being…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . had Adam been ordered in his nature, how on earth could he will his own desire over God. . . .

It is understandable, the serpent made them an offer they would not refuse - to deprive themselves of something they wanted. They could have easily said no. Why submit to God, when you can be a god?

 

[grannymh]

1st= Yes.

2nd= No.

3rd= Yes.
B.= No.

But I don’t see how these questions “prove” Adam could be free from disordered passions, and still sin.

Maybe its the wording of the CCC that leads my thinking along the lines that had Adam been ordered in his nature, how on earth could he will his own desire over God.

2nd = No. He could see that the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for knowledge, but since he had a friendship with God and was ordered in his being…

My apology. I give up.

 

[grannymh]

1st= Yes.

2nd= No.

3rd= Yes.
B.= No.

But I don’t see how these questions “prove” Adam could be free from disordered passions, and still sin.

Maybe its the wording of the CCC that leads my thinking along the lines that had Adam been ordered in his nature, how on earth could he will his own desire over God.

2nd = No. He could see that the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for knowledge, but since he had a friendship with God and was ordered in his being…

1.Adam had knowledge of good and evil. 2. Adam can see for himself that the tree has good fruit. 3. Adam can hear for himself the words of Satan. 4. Adam has the ability to make a free will choice. 5. Adam has the ability to think about his choice. 6. Since “mastery of self” did not remove intellect and free will from Adam’s human nature, Adam is still capable of using his intellect and will as he chooses. 7. Therefore, he can intelligently and freely choose to sin.

My apology.
This is the best I can do.
I give up.

 

[ynotzap]

I think

1st= Yes.

2nd= No.

3rd= Yes.
B.= No.

But I don’t see how these questions “prove” Adam could be free from disordered passions, and still sin.

Maybe its the wording of the CCC that leads my thinking along the lines that had Adam been ordered in his nature, how on earth could he will his own desire over God.

2nd = No. He could see that the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for knowledge, but since he had a friendship with God and was ordered in his being…

I think there is something you should know about disordered passion (this is by the way) Having disordered passions, or a leaning towards disordered passions is not a sin in itself, but it leads to sin if we give in to it’s influence.

As it was stated deceived by Satan, to be as god if you eat of this fruit, appeals to pride, a false estimation of oneself. Instead of turning to God, and thanking Him, and acknowledging Him for all their blessings, they looked to themselves and desired to be like God, thats what pride does and it’s a lie. Satan fell for the same reason, Pride, instead of obeying God in the test he was given, he refused to do God’s will, he too looked to himself and beheld the beauty that God bestowed on him, and gave God no acknowledgement, or submission Sin ultimately is rebellion against God’s will, by our free will

 

[simpleas]

It is understandable, the serpent made them an offer they would not refuse - to deprive themselves of something they wanted. They could have easily said no. Why submit to God, when you can be a god?

Adam was ordered in his nature, because there was no such thing as sin before the fall, yes he had a free will so he could choose, but being ordered rather than disordered, he had a “extra step up the ladder” than we do. We can choose to sin or not, but we are more inclined to sin than Adam ever was.

To be “like Gods” and gain knowledge of Good from Evil, was what they did become, hence God stopping them from eating from the tree of life and live forever. So in effect we all (most of us) know good from evil, maybe Adam did us a favor! (apart from being mortal)

 

[simpleas]

1.Adam had knowledge of good and evil. 2. Adam can see for himself that the tree has good fruit. 3. Adam can hear for himself the words of Satan. 4. Adam has the ability to make a free will choice. 5. Adam has the ability to think about his choice. 6. Since “mastery of self” did not remove intellect and free will from Adam’s human nature, Adam is still capable of using his intellect and will as he chooses. 7. Therefore, he can intelligently and freely choose to sin.

My apology.
This is the best I can do.
I give up.

So there was evil in the garden then, Adam having a knowledge of both Good and Evil would mean he in some way experienced them both, not just Good.

You the “super” gran is giving up???:bigyikes:

 

[simpleas]

I think

I think there is something you should know about disordered passion (this is by the way) Having disordered passions, or a leaning towards disordered passions is not a sin in itself, but it leads to sin if we give in to it’s influence.

As it was stated deceived by Satan, to be as god if you eat of this fruit, appeals to pride, a false estimation of oneself. Instead of turning to God, and thanking Him, and acknowledging Him for all their blessings, they looked to themselves and desired to be like God, thats what pride does and it’s a lie. Satan fell for the same reason, Pride, instead of obeying God in the test he was given, he refused to do God’s will, he too looked to himself and beheld the beauty that God bestowed on him, and gave God no acknowledgement, or submission Sin ultimately is rebellion against God’s will, by our free will

Thanks.

I don’t really think of satan when I’m thinking of the first two humans, because satan was an angel, I believe is completely different species to a human being. A&E had no disordered passions or leanings towards disordered passions, they were the first two beings that God willed in all goodness, they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and I’m now thinking- this was a bad thing?
We can only survive because we know the difference between good and evil now. So perhaps they did us a favor in a way, only it sounds strange to say that, and I may need to lie down in a dark room now…

 

[Aloysium]

Adam was ordered in his nature, because there was no such thing as sin before the fall, yes he had a free will so he could choose, but being ordered rather than disordered, he had a “extra step up the ladder” than we do. We can choose to sin or not, but we are more inclined to sin than Adam ever was.

To be “like Gods” and gain knowledge of Good from Evil, was what they did become, hence God stopping them from eating from the tree of life and live forever. So in effect we all (most of us) know good from evil, maybe Adam did us a favor! (apart from being mortal)

Adam needed the serpent before he would sin. We do very well on our own.

We do have the fruit of the tree of eternal life available to us - the Eucharist.
There was no going back to Eden - it was forward to Christ.

We did not actually gain knowledge - we became ignorant in fact.
We followed our own will rather than God’s in eating of the fruit. We committed the first human evil act: Adam took the first blow on the nail that prierced the hand of our Lord and Saviour
To determine what is moral is not our prerogative. They are God’s laws, based on He Himself who is Love.

What favour did Adam do for us? What knowledge specifically do you have that you believe was granted through Adam’s sin?