Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[ynotzap]

Your understanding is right about free will, since with many first parents, there are many free wills, a free will for every individual and there are many individuals.

I can only speculate about the sons of god, and daughters of men. Maybe it had some r
eference to Greek mythology, where their gods intermingled with human women

Your reference to Judaism made some statements that I could not agree with, it was a man’s interpretation or opinion it didn’t smack of divine inspiration, IMHO

 

[grannymh]

A few personal thoughts about human free will.

Unlike many philosophers, I personally consider free will as the key characteristic of the human species. Free will is often, but not always, an outward action that has an important, little or large, result for the individual. Because humans normally live in some form of community, starting with family, an individual’s free will can affect others.

The value and responsibility of free will is seen in our relationship with our almighty Maker. Because the goal of God is to have all humans share in His Divine Life, there had to be a way to insure that all humans could do that. This means that there could be no deviation in basic human nature. No deviation can only be assured by having all humans descend by propagation from one original set of human parents.

Information source. CCC, 1730-1734; CCC, 396; CCC, 301; CCC, 311; CCC, 356.

 

[simpleas]

Your understanding is right about free will, since with many first parents, there are many free wills, a free will for every individual and there are many individuals.

I can only speculate about the sons of god, and daughters of men. Maybe it had some r
eference to Greek mythology, where their gods intermingled with human women

Your reference to Judaism made some statements that I could not agree with, it was a man’s interpretation or opinion it didn’t smack of divine inspiration, IMHO

Thanks for your opinion

 

[ynotzap]

A few personal thoughts about human free will.

Unlike many philosophers, I personally consider free will as the key characteristic of the human species. Free will is often, but not always, an outward action that has an important, little or large, result for the individual. Because humans normally live in some form of community, starting with family, an individual’s free will can affect others.

The value and responsibility of free will is seen in our relationship with our almighty Maker. Because the goal of God is to have all humans share in His Divine Life, there had to be a way to insure that all humans could do that. This means that there could be no deviation in basic human nature. No deviation can only be assured by having all humans descend by propagation from one original set of human parents.

Information source. CCC, 1730-1734; CCC, 396; CCC, 301; CCC, 311; CCC, 356.

Sounds good to me: Its because of free will in co-operation with the grace of God that someone told us the Good News, and where would we be if we were alone. The fact that we indentify with each others as members of one human race, and that we can communicate because we are social beings that God leads us to salvation. Not only that but we have universal problems that affect all of us, they are simular, and so is their remedy.

 

[simpleas]

A few personal thoughts about human free will.

Unlike many philosophers, I personally consider free will as the key characteristic of the human species. Free will is often, but not always, an outward action that has an important, little or large, result for the individual. Because humans normally live in some form of community, starting with family, an individual’s free will can affect others.

The value and responsibility of free will is seen in our relationship with our almighty Maker. Because the goal of God is to have all humans share in His Divine Life, there had to be a way to insure that all humans could do that. This means that there could be no deviation in basic human nature. No deviation can only be assured by having all humans descend by propagation from one original set of human parents.

Information source. CCC, 1730-1734; CCC, 396; CCC, 301; CCC, 311; CCC, 356.

How can we be born with a freewill if we are born with a state that was broken? (relationship with God)

Adam used his freewill to choose what he considered to be good to him…fair enough. That isn’t our choice, because we don’t get to use our freewill before birth, only after…

 

[grannymh]

How can we be born with a freewill if we are born with a state that was broken? (relationship with God)

Adam used his freewill to choose what he considered to be good to him…fair enough. That isn’t our choice, because we don’t get to use our freewill before birth, only after…

It looks to me like there is some difficulty with “Church” vocabulary.

When Church teachings refer to human nature, it is referring to our unique unification of spiritual soul and decomposing anatomy. Our nature is what makes us human in the image of God.

As for the word state. We often refer to the state of our health, the economic state of our county, and the state of our charge account, etc. In addition, we refer to the state of our soul such as the State of Sanctifying Grace and the State of Mortal Sin. Since I have been on CAF, I have learned about the Contracted State of Original Sin.

Regardless of what “state” we are in, our human nature does not basically change. We are still body and soul. Our rational intellect and free will are our spiritual resources basic to our human nature per se. We are born with a complete human nature because Adam had a complete human nature. What happened is that Adam and Eve’s human nature was wounded. Wounded in the sense that we do not have Adam’s original freedom from concupiscence and from death.

This wounded, yet complete, human nature was transmitted to us by propagation. Human nature, blood and guts, intellect and free will, is ours at conception when God creates our spiritual soul.

It is true that we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness. We do not have the extra, above and beyond, gifts which God gave Adam and Eve. But we do receive God’s constant graces, actual or common, so that we can choose to be in a “friendship” relationship with Him. This means that we can share in God’s life. Sharing in God’s life is also known as being in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

If we have any idea of applying a bit of logic to Adam’s existence, we need to recognize the essential basic human nature, ours and Adam’s.

I am not sure if I gave enough information to answer your post. Please let me know what else I need to do.

 

[ynotzap]

As Grannymh stated free will is basic to our nature, everyone has free will when they are born. It is true that Adam broke his and our relationship with God, and as a consequence our wills were weakened, St. Paul confirms this truth when he said “The things I want to do I don’t do, and the things I do are not the things I want to do, in me there is a war, the flesh against the spirit, and spirit against the flesh, who will help me, Jesus Christ”

Jesus strengthens our wills and enlightens our minds where we do what we should do. this is the effect that God’s grace has on us.

Adam was not born a baby but was created as a mature adult so he could make intelligent use of his will.We on the other hand a born babies and have to develop to make intelligent use of our wills.

 

[simpleas]

It looks to me like there is some difficulty with “Church” vocabulary.

When Church teachings refer to human nature, it is referring to our unique unification of spiritual soul and decomposing anatomy. Our nature is what makes us human in the image of God.

As for the word state. We often refer to the state of our health, the economic state of our county, and the state of our charge account, etc. In addition, we refer to the state of our soul such as the State of Sanctifying Grace and the State of Mortal Sin. Since I have been on CAF, I have learned about the Contracted State of Original Sin.

Regardless of what “state” we are in, our human nature does not basically change. We are still body and soul. Our rational intellect and free will are our spiritual resources basic to our human nature per se. We are born with a complete human nature because Adam had a complete human nature. What happened is that Adam and Eve’s human nature was wounded. Wounded in the sense that we do not have Adam’s original freedom from concupiscence and from death.

This wounded, yet complete, human nature was transmitted to us by propagation. Human nature, blood and guts, intellect and free will, is ours at conception when God creates our spiritual soul.

It is true that we are not born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness. We do not have the extra, above and beyond, gifts which God gave Adam and Eve. But we do receive God’s constant graces, actual or common, so that we can choose to be in a “friendship” relationship with Him. This means that we can share in God’s life. Sharing in God’s life is also known as being in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

If we have any idea of applying a bit of logic to Adam’s existence, we need to recognize the essential basic human nature, ours and Adam’s.

I am not sure if I gave enough information to answer your post. Please let me know what else I need to do.

Thanks.

I’m clear on the church teaching that our human nature is both matter and soul

We are descended from A&E who were fully human, and also had a soul. We receive our matter from A&E but not a soul. God gives us a soul at conception. This soul isn’t complete because it is given without the grace it would have had if A&E had not sinned.

Its difficult to say that God gives a soul lacking in something (grace) To me anyway, Because God is all good and perfect.The soul animates the body, not the body animates the soul.
Now if we said our soul came from the first two souls, who had lost their grace, and we receive our souls along with matter from the first two parents, I can see the logic in that.

If we are born with freewill, then maybe we get the same choice as A&E did in the garden, but if we say we are lacking in grace from birth then we have no freewill to choose to do our own will or Gods will…

We can’t compare God to a human, because God is spirit, but when I think about us as humans (which God made us to be, in his image of course) and our freewill, I see this example :
If a human wants another human to do something, or live a certain way and the other human does this then they are not using their freewill, they are doing the will of another person.
God wants us to do his will, and not our own will. Same as he wanted of A&E, but even with their gift of SG, they still chose their own will.

PS My logic maybe upside down, inside out, and round the bend…

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.

I’m clear on the church teaching that our human nature is both matter and soul

We are descended from A&E who were fully human, and also had a soul. We receive our matter from A&E but not a soul. God gives us a soul at conception. This soul isn’t complete because it is given without the grace it would have had if A&E had not sinned.

Its difficult to say that God gives a soul lacking in something (grace) To me anyway, Because God is all good and perfect.The soul animates the body, not the body animates the soul.
Now if we said our soul came from the first two souls, who had lost their grace, and we receive our souls along with matter from the first two parents, I can see the logic in that.

If we are born with freewill, then maybe we get the same choice as A&E did in the garden, but if we say we are lacking in grace from birth then we have no freewill to choose to do our own will or Gods will…

We can’t compare God to a human, because God is spirit, but when I think about us as humans (which God made us to be, in his image of course) and our freewill, I see this example :
If a human wants another human to do something, or live a certain way and the other human does this then they are not using their freewill, they are doing the will of another person.
God wants us to do his will, and not our own will. Same as he wanted of A&E, but even with their gift of SG, they still chose their own will.

PS My logic maybe upside down, inside out, and round the bend…

And I am round the bend, downside up, outside in…

What will happen to this sentence from post 28…
“This soul isn’t complete because it is given without the grace it would have had if A&E had not sinned.”
…if we looked at the soul as complete because its spiritual nature is what makes us in the image of God. If that is correct, would the completeness of the soul depend on Adam’s actions?

As you said, the soul animates the body, not the body animates the soul. I really wish more people knew that fact. Is it possible to look at that fact as the soul making a rational decision and the body carrying out the decision. Would anything change if the decision was to do what someone else wanted?

I am searching for an answer. Seriously, I am curios enough to ask these questions, because on my side of the bend, the answers may provide a better direction.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . We receive our matter from A&E but not a soul. God gives us a soul at conception. This soul isn’t complete because it is given without the grace it would have had if A&E had not sinned.

Its difficult to say that God gives a soul lacking in something (grace) To me anyway, Because God is all good and perfect.The soul animates the body, not the body animates the soul.
Now if we said our soul came from the first two souls, who had lost their grace, and we receive our souls along with matter from the first two parents, I can see the logic in that. . . .

:twocents:

As animals come from animals, plants from plants, humans (spirit and flesh) are born of humans (spirit and flesh).
All creation is maintained by God, but in each person we see a new creation - a new human soul.
I tend to see the glass as half full (sometimes); so it is not that some people are lacking in grace, but that some have more besowed (bestowed is what I meant but the sowing of grace as a seed that grows feels right - so I’m not changing the spelling) on them than others.
It is my experience that grace often comes with suffering; so in worldly terms, it is not frequently seen as a blessing.

 

[simpleas]

And I am round the bend, downside up, outside in…

What will happen to this sentence from post 28…
“This soul isn’t complete because it is given without the grace it would have had if A&E had not sinned.”
…if we looked at the soul as complete because its spiritual nature is what makes us in the image of God. If that is correct, would the completeness of the soul depend on Adam’s actions?

As you said, the soul animates the body, not the body animates the soul. I really wish more people knew that fact. Is it possible to look at that fact as the soul making a rational decision and the body carrying out the decision. Would anything change if the decision was to do what someone else wanted?

I am searching for an answer. Seriously, I am curios enough to ask these questions, because on my side of the bend, the answers may provide a better direction.

A&E already had a complete soul and the gifts to control their human instincts I think. If A&E had not sinned we all would have been born with a soul, complete with the gifts to aid us to live lives of holiness etc.

The O.S stops this soul being born with the gift SG
.
But I don’t think Adams actions effects individual souls, Adam is not the provider of our soul only our human body, like we know the soul is given at conception, only the human body is created by the parents. How can the soul, which doesn’t come from any human, only from God in a spiritual way be effected by another person?

Granted we will never know how the miracle of infusion of a soul into the human takes place, but thinking this soul “arrives” without completeness, makes God alittle less complete…

The soul making a decision and the body carrying it out is correct to me because it is a spiritual decision, sort of like prayer/connection to God in carrying out certain acts.
But we also need a brain (any going spare?) and an intellect too. The soul seems to me to be the deep down inside of us source that points us toward God, I’m not sure if the soul relies on our brains etc to aid it or the other way round.

I’m not to sure about the sentence makes God alittle less complete… no offense is intended to God or fellow Catholic.

The being born without SG (not complete) I read on the link below :

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/goda42.htm

 

[simpleas]

:twocents:

As animals come from animals, plants from plants, humans (spirit and flesh) are born of humans (spirit and flesh).
All creation is maintained by God, but in each person we see a new creation - a new human soul.
I tend to see the glass as half full (sometimes); so it is not that some people are lacking in grace, but that some have more besowed (bestowed is what I meant but the sowing of grace as a seed that grows feels right - so I’m not changing the spelling) on them than others.
It is my experience that grace often comes with suffering; so in worldly terms, it is not frequently seen as a blessing.

So are you saying our spirit (soul) is passed by humans? I seem to separate the two, because the soul can live independently, or I believe it can, so it would be given to the human at conception, and leave the body upon death.
But yes God maintains all of his creation.

 

[ynotzap]

When Adam sinned he lost the holy Spirit who gives sanctifying grace. Heaven was closed, as no human can make up for this offense against God. Man lost this contact with God, this friendship. No person was worthy enough to represent mankind. So we inherited this condition from Adam. The purpose of Jesus coming as God-man, a human, with a divine personality was to establish this friendship with God, for humanity, as He was God, and He was man. We now have and intercessor for mankind, a High Priest to make intercession for us, now the Father pays attention to us through the merits of Jesus, where before we had no possibility of being heard, or redeemed. Now every person that is born is born with original sin and its effects. By being Baptized into Jesus, being reborn, we are made the children of God by the Holy Spirit and we can receive His sanctifying grace again.

 

[grannymh]

A&E already had a complete soul and the gifts to control their human instincts I think. If A&E had not sinned we all would have been born with a soul, complete with the gifts to aid us to live lives of holiness etc.

The O.S stops this soul being born with the gift SG
.
But I don’t think Adams actions effects individual souls, Adam is not the provider of our soul only our human body, like we know the soul is given at conception, only the human body is created by the parents. How can the soul, which doesn’t come from any human, only from God in a spiritual way be effected by another person?

Granted we will never know how the miracle of infusion of a soul into the human takes place, but thinking this soul “arrives” without completeness, makes God alittle less complete…

The soul making a decision and the body carrying it out is correct to me because it is a spiritual decision, sort of like prayer/connection to God in carrying out certain acts.
But we also need a brain (any going spare?) and an intellect too. The soul seems to me to be the deep down inside of us source that points us toward God, I’m not sure if the soul relies on our brains etc to aid it or the other way round.

I’m not to sure about the sentence makes God alittle less complete… no offense is intended to God or fellow Catholic.

The being born without SG (not complete) I read on the link below :

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/goda42.htm

Is this the line which caught your attention?
3) He gave them the life of grace, a share in His own life, which made the soul basically capable of the vision of God in the life to come.

Followed by this explanation.
God clearly intended they should pass on all thee gifts to their children, including us. Through the narrative of the forbidden fruit, however, the Sacred author tells us that God gave our first parents some kind of command, whether it was about a tree or something else. Whatever it was, they violated His orders, and fell from His favor, losing sanctifying grace and the coordinating gift. Hence they transmitted to us only that basic humanity, without the other gifts.

I went back to the beginning of the paragraph where this line is.
God had given to Adam and Eve, our first parents, three levels of gifts:
Try focusing on the word “levels”. By doing this, can you separate the three gifts according to their level? Personally, I do not like the word level; yet, at the moment I cannot think of a better word to describe the differences in the gifts when it comes to Adam having human nature, spiritual soul and physical body. To me the three gifts are not equal gifts.

 

[simpleas]

Is this the line which caught your attention?
3) He gave them the life of grace, a share in His own life, which made the soul basically capable of the vision of God in the life to come.

Followed by this explanation.
God clearly intended they should pass on all thee gifts to their children, including us. Through the narrative of the forbidden fruit, however, the Sacred author tells us that God gave our first parents some kind of command, whether it was about a tree or something else. Whatever it was, they violated His orders, and fell from His favor, losing sanctifying grace and the coordinating gift. Hence they transmitted to us only that basic humanity, without the other gifts.

I went back to the beginning of the paragraph where this line is.
God had given to Adam and Eve, our first parents, three levels of gifts:
Try focusing on the word “levels”. By doing this, can you separate the three gifts according to their level? Personally, I do not like the word level; yet, at the moment I cannot think of a better word to describe the differences in the gifts when it comes to Adam having human nature, spiritual soul and physical body. To me the three gifts are not equal gifts.

Hi, Thanks.

It was this piece :

“… it is evident that original sin in Adam’s descendants has not the character of personal guilt. It is the privation of sanctifying grace… .” Privation means the lack of what ought to be there. So when we speak of transmission of original sin, it would be more accurate to speak of non-transmission of sanctifying grace.

Personally, I do not like the word level; yet, at the moment I cannot think of a better word to describe the differences in the gifts when it comes to Adam having human nature, spiritual soul and physical body. To me the three gifts are not equal gifts.

Your description of the three gifts don’t seem to be the same as the Rev’s? I’m probably wrong, but you say Adam human nature, soul and physical body.
The Rev say’s 1) basic humanity, consisting of a body and soul, with mind and will.

1. God gave to our first parents an added gift, which is just such a coordinating gift, which made it easy to keep each drive in its place. (It is sometimes called the gift of integrity).
2. He gave them the life of grace, a share in His own life, which made the soul basically capable of the vision of God in the life to come.

Then further down he states :

Hence they transmitted to us only that basic humanity, without the other gifts.

The basic human nature the Rev describes is body and soul.

The soul isn’t given by the human? So I don’t follow the Rev here.

As we said before, the soul animates the body. God breathes life into Adam and Eve once he had created them, so the body/soul is separate to begin with(like ours) Then by the Rev’s description God gives the soul grace so that the soul, (not the human?) can be capable of the vision of God in the life to come.

When A&E fall, they loose grace for their soul, but they can’t affect anothers soul by procreation because they only pass on human matter.
Hence my misunderstanding on how God gives a new life a soul without grace to begin a life with.

 

[ynotzap]

Human nature is Body and soul united, not just body, not just soul, If we were just bodies we would be just animals, if we were just souls, we would be angels. On the ladder of grades of being we are between animals, and angels. We have animality (animal like senses but also r.ational intelligence(a spiritual faculty of the soul, the power to reason, and understand ) So human nature consists of animality and rationality, a separate species of being from animals and angels. When Adam sinned he lost the gift of integrity which allowed his intelligence to rule over the animal part of his nature. When he sinned and lost this grace or gift, immediately he experienced guilt. He experienced the influence of the animal part of his nature had over his mind In a sense his passions, often described as the “flesh” or feelings had a powerful sway on his mind, so that he lost control over them ,his mind is often referred to as the “spirit” because it is one of powers of the soul Thats why St.Paul refers to man’s condition as a war, the flesh against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. This is one of the effects of original sin. Our wills are weakened, this is another effect of Original sin. The will, the power to make a choice is another faculty or power of the soul. We do things we know we shouldn’t do because we are not strong enough spiritually to resist the temptation.
Man is not complete in his nature without his body, although the soul is the noblist part of his nature, because it is like God, it is spiritual, and God is spiritual. Of course now since Jesus took on human nature, He gave our bodies great dignity, our bodies are called "the temples of the Holy Spirit, and our souls will be united with our glorified bodies as Jesus was at His resurrection. Our bodies are temples because of the effect that grace which was merited for us by Jesus when we are baptized has on us restoring us back to where Adam was before the fall, in the state of sanctifying grace. Once we are in this state we are able to control our passions, and desires if they fight against our minds, our intelligence. When this happens man does rational things, and not irrational things caused by his feelings and passions uncontrolled. I hope this helps. You must remember even when we are in the state of grace we have a spiritual struggle on our hands to remain faithful to God we will be tested and we may fall from the state of grace, but Jesus is merciful and we can again be reconciled with Him through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[simpleas]

Human nature is Body and soul united, not just body, not just soul, If we were just bodies we would be just animals, if we were just souls, we would be angels. On the ladder of grades of being we are between animals, and angels. We have animality (animal like senses but also r.ational intelligence(a spiritual faculty of the soul, the power to reason, and understand ) So human nature consists of animality and rationality, a separate species of being from animals and angels. When Adam sinned he lost the gift of integrity which allowed his intelligence to rule over the animal part of his nature. When he sinned and lost this grace or gift, immediately he experienced guilt. He experienced the influence of the animal part of his nature had over his mind In a sense his passions, often described as the “flesh” or feelings had a powerful sway on his mind, so that he lost control over them ,his mind is often referred to as the “spirit” because it is one of powers of the soul Thats why St.Paul refers to man’s condition as a war, the flesh against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. This is one of the effects of original sin. Our wills are weakened, this is another effect of Original sin. The will, the power to make a choice is another faculty or power of the soul. We do things we know we shouldn’t do because we are not strong enough spiritually to resist the temptation.
Man is not complete in his nature without his body, although the soul is the noblist part of his nature, because it is like God, it is spiritual, and God is spiritual. Of course now since Jesus took on human nature, He gave our bodies great dignity, our bodies are called "the temples of the Holy Spirit, and our souls will be united with our glorified bodies as Jesus was at His resurrection. Our bodies are temples because of the effect that grace which was merited for us by Jesus when we are baptized has on us restoring us back to where Adam was before the fall, in the state of sanctifying grace. Once we are in this state we are able to control our passions, and desires if they fight against our minds, our intelligence. When this happens man does rational things, and not irrational things caused by his feelings and passions uncontrolled. I hope this helps. You must remember even when we are in the state of grace we have a spiritual struggle on our hands to remain faithful to God we will be tested and we may fall from the state of grace, but Jesus is merciful and we can again be reconciled with Him through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Thanks.

God who creates all that is good and perfect, can then give us a soul that is less than perfect before we are born, is what we are taught. It makes little sense to me at the moment. Of course I know we all are sinners, we fall short of the glory of God, but thats not usually the case until we reach the age of reason.
Adam fell and lost his own state of SG for his own soul. We can do this too, but does it mean we have to be born without SG from God himself?

 

[grannymh]

Thanks.

God who creates all that is good and perfect, can then give us a soul that is less than perfect before we are born, is what we are taught.

Being older than dirt, I have raced across town to yell “Stop the Press!”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_press

However, it wasn’t a newspaper that was being printed, it was a small booklet. The printing press was stopped, the error corrected, and smiles were all around.

This afternoon, we need to stop the “less than perfect” error from being printed in the wrong context.

Seriously, at conception, God gives us a spiritual soul so that we can share in His divine life. A soul is a soul is a soul. In that sense, a soul is always perfect. The real question is – What is the state of a soul at conception, etc.?

 

[simpleas]

Being older than dirt, I have raced across town to yell “Stop the Press!”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_press

However, it wasn’t a newspaper that was being printed, it was a small booklet. The printing press was stopped, the error corrected, and smiles were all around.

This afternoon, we need to stop the “less than perfect” error from being printed in the wrong context.

Seriously, at conception, God gives us a spiritual soul so that we can share in His divine life. A soul is a soul is a soul. In that sense, a soul is always perfect. The real question is – What is the state of a soul at conception, etc.?

Ok we can stop using less than perfect (well I will…) If you say, *God gives us a spiritual soul so that we can share in His divine life. * AND A soul is a soul is a soul. In that sense, a soul is always perfect Why then do we need SG if the soul is already perfect, before we have actually committed sin?

The soul is given, but it lacks the supernatural life God intended it to have, this is our teaching.

Still, I don’t think we can answer the question on how individual souls are affected by Adams sin.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

When we are conceived, God gives the world a new spiritual soul: all that constitutes our individual ability to relate in this fallen world in embryonic form - alive and miraculous.

As to the soul’s state at conception, I would go by:

Matt: 19: 14 - But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”