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davidv
Guest
Why is this confusing? A&E were human. Humans have human nature. This is different from what Jesus is.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, they certainly didn’t behave as people who were satisfied with what they had.Being in communion with God would be all the means of happiness/fulfillment they and we would need. Them more so, because they did not have appetites that a fallen free from O.S but suffers the effects of O.S human has.
So we can’t really say they wanted more.
They are a interesting pair.
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simpleas
Guest
Because Jesus became one of us (human will), but also had a divine will, and was able to obey God, A&E had only a human will, and they failed to obey. Having only a human will would be less than having a divine will, which is fine because they were only created to have a human will, and having so fell into temptation.
As I said a few posts back, if they had some form of both disobeying God is more extreme when there is a divine connection, than just being a human creature with a freewill to do the right thing or not.
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simpleas
Guest
Exactly.
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grannymh
Guest
In the true Catholic Church, “all the means of happiness/fulfillment they [Adam and Eve] and we would need” is the Beatific Vision in heaven.
No matter how many people call the “Garden of Eden” by the word paradise, Catholics should recognize that earthly paradise is not the same as the Beatific Vision.
Because human nature is not identical with God’s Divine nature, it becomes necessary logic that Adam is the first and only Original Human. Therefore, all humans, as descendants of Adam and his spouse Eve, can seek the “perfect good” which is to be in the presence of the Divine Beatific Vision. This seeking is possible because real humans have the ability to seek God over and above earthly goods.
Because there are earthly good things, there is the temptation to seek immediate earthly goods and skip obedience to God.
There is one Original Adam because that assures us that God’s promised reconciliation holds for all humans.
God’s Divine Revelation trumps the garbage presented in the name of free speech.
:clapping:
No matter how many people call the “Garden of Eden” by the word paradise, Catholics should recognize that earthly paradise is not the same as the Beatific Vision.
Because human nature is not identical with God’s Divine nature, it becomes necessary logic that Adam is the first and only Original Human. Therefore, all humans, as descendants of Adam and his spouse Eve, can seek the “perfect good” which is to be in the presence of the Divine Beatific Vision. This seeking is possible because real humans have the ability to seek God over and above earthly goods.
Because there are earthly good things, there is the temptation to seek immediate earthly goods and skip obedience to God.
There is one Original Adam because that assures us that God’s promised reconciliation holds for all humans.
God’s Divine Revelation trumps the garbage presented in the name of free speech.
:clapping:
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fhansen
Guest
And this seems to be the point of our faith-and of Adam’s obligation as well. God wants us to trust-to believe without seeing, and even Adam & Eve’s vision was impaired in comparison to the BV. But it was not so fully impaired that they couldn’t-and shouldn’t- be expected to seek that fuller vision, to seek the true and ultimate Good. This obligation is a moral one; its both, at one and the same time, the best and highest good for us and our happiness and simply the right thing to do. So we have a role to play, an obligation; God didn’t want to overwhelm our wills with the BV; He wants to draw and stretch our wills; He wants us to do the willing IOW; that’s the essence of our free will anyway. He wants us to freely choose the good; that choosing, not without the aid of grace, is the measure of our justice, integrity, and spiritual maturity.In the true Catholic Church, “all the means of happiness/fulfillment they [Adam and Eve] and we would need” is the Beatific Vision in heaven.
No matter how many people call the “Garden of Eden” by the word paradise, Catholics should recognize that earthly paradise is not the same as the Beatific Vision.
Because human nature is not identical with God’s Divine nature, it becomes necessary logic that Adam is the first and only Original Human. Therefore, all humans, as descendants of Adam and his spouse Eve, can seek the “perfect good” which is to be in the presence of the Divine Beatific Vision. This seeking is possible because real humans have the ability to seek God over and above earthly goods.
Because there are earthly good things, there is the temptation to seek immediate earthly goods and skip obedience to God.
There is one Original Adam because that assures us that God’s promised reconciliation holds for all humans.
God’s Divine Revelation trumps the garbage presented in the name of free speech.
:clapping:
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simpleas
Guest
No, if they were created without sin and in communion with God, that is happiness/fulfillment of a human creature surely? No pain or suffering of any kind while enjoying the beauty of the world and all its creatures.In the true Catholic Church, “all the means of happiness/fulfillment they [Adam and Eve] and we would need” is the Beatific Vision in heaven.
No matter how many people call the “Garden of Eden” by the word paradise, Catholics should recognize that earthly paradise is not the same as the Beatific Vision.
Because human nature is not identical with God’s Divine nature, it becomes necessary logic that Adam is the first and only Original Human. Therefore, all humans, as descendants of Adam and his spouse Eve, can seek the “perfect good” which is to be in the presence of the Divine Beatific Vision. This seeking is possible because real humans have the ability to seek God over and above earthly goods.
Because there are earthly good things, there is the temptation to seek immediate earthly goods and skip obedience to God.
There is one Original Adam because that assures us that God’s promised reconciliation holds for all humans.
God’s Divine Revelation trumps the garbage presented in the name of free speech.
:clapping:
Wasn’t that part of why God even bothered to creature an intelligent, spiritual, loving creature in his own image to live, participate in life and eventually become as God in heaven.
The garden wasn’t heaven, but it sounds close from a human perspective, especially since we experience a very different garden, (earth) And while the earth isn’t heaven because we aren’t in the beatific vision, it is meant to be a heaven. (will be done on earth as it is in heaven).
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, but also as a matter of that creature’s choice.
The Beatific Vision should have, by its nature, not allowed for the will of man to orient itself to anything else.-simply because all that a human could possibly desire would be fulfilled. Man’s purpose, his end, would be complete. But our own uncertainty or doubt about that very truth mirrors Adam & Eve’s uncertainty IMO, and so, like us, they couldn’t have possessed that vision either.
In God’s world perhaps there’s no growth without struggle, having made His universe in a state of journeying to perfection. He’s cultivating in us a sort of valuing of the right thing, an appreciation for the true good, an acknowledgement of our need for Him-and why. We need to sort of deserve the BV, to desire it, but in order for this to happen we might also need to spend time away from Him, so the heart can grow fonder, as we become jaded by the futility of our more mundane pursuits. Grace and revelation give us the knowledge we need to leave the world behind, so to speak, and begin to pursue the better course.
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grannymh
Guest
Please. What is your “Catholic” definition of “in communion with God”? There are plenty of non-Catholic, even non-religious meanings for being in communion with god. (lower case g is intended).
I realize that there are plenty of non-Catholic versions of heaven. I am wondering which definition of heaven is being used in post 880. Then, it seemed that there was a misreading of the prayer Our Father …
I will try another attempt at posting much later since I am traveling.
This depends on Simpleas sharing the definitions of “in communion with God” and of “heaven”.
I did ask about “Catholic” definitions but maybe none are known.
Sad to say, there have been times when I felt that it is useless to speak about “Catholic” definitions.
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simpleas
Guest
What you say sounds right to me for us as descendants of Adam and Eve, the seeking, suffering etc in order to focus our will towards God’s will, but not when we think about Adam and Eve. The ccc even states (as you know) that they did not suffer or die as long as they remained in divine intimacy. So God’s world in the beginning was free from struggle…at least struggle as we know it. We of course can not know why they became prideful when they were free from this sin. Satan gets left out of our discussion, yet he if he exists, he played a role in the fall, just as much. Jesus calls him the father of lies, not sure who’s father he is (maybe his angels). But when satan is mentioned, it’s almost like we can not put any blame on him because A&E had freewill and knew exactly what they were doing, and so we are just" passing the buck".
A&E being in harmony with God, creation and themselves, still must have had a desire to “see” God because only goodness could come from being in this harmony, satan is the reason I think, because no other desire (evil) was within them.
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simpleas
Guest
By being in communion with God I mean like harmony/peace between God and his creation.
The garden was not heaven, BV. But it would seem to be a “heaven” when it was first created, even the CCC has a part named Man in Paradise, maybe that is not a place, but a state, just like heaven may not be a place, but a state. To be honest I don’t know what the Catholic version of heaven is, other than seeing God as he is. I know PJP described it as a state of being on earth and then as the BV which is the end goal.
I’m sorry I must have missed the post where you asked about Catholic definitions, I thought I had answered questions (well at least tried!) I haven’t had Catholic definitions inbedded in my mind, most of my learning has been limited, but I have always believed in the one true God.
Happy Travels.
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fhansen
Guest
But why should they be attracted away from God and towards satan and his lies? Yes, Eden involved no struggle, unless for a struggle of the wills. Man still had his obligation to his Creator, he still had to *decide *. And to make the right decision, it appears, A&E apparently needed to struggle even more anyway, in order to gain an appreciation of the love, peace, and harmony that they ended up forsaking. It’s *hard *to find God-and to find why we need Him-but it’s a good struggle if the end is still Him.
Anyway, I don’t think A&E were meant to stay neutral; they needed to act, to define their position vis a vis God. Only to the extent that they chose Him and His will would the promises be or remain theirs. Do you think that Adam & Eve loved God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength? Because, if not, then they still had a ways to go.
In a way, maybe Eden was just *too *darn easy.
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grannymh
Guest
Pardon me. I do not intend to be rude. However, I have seen enough harmony/peace communion stuff on CAF to either throw up or lose my tempter at all the omissions of annoying Catholic teachings. It is time for me to ignore these topics and some other very different topics but with a similar intent, so that I may live to fight another day.
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simpleas
Guest
:ehh:Pardon me. I do not intend to be rude. However, I have seen enough harmony/peace communion stuff on CAF to either throw up or lose my tempter at all the omissions of annoying Catholic teachings. It is time for me to ignore these topics and some other very different topics but with a similar intent, so that I may live to fight another day.
I don’t know what you think being in communion with God means, I’m still learning that myself, I also have no idea what other people think it is. Maybe you are thinking some people are of the lovey dovey la la land of communion and harmony with God?
From the CCC :
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
*Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}. *
*760 Christians of the first centuries said, "The world was created for the sake of the Church."153 God created the world for the sake of communion with his divine life, a communion brought about by the “convocation” of men in Christ, and this “convocation” is the Church. The Church is the goal of all things,154 and God permitted such painful upheavals as the angels’ fall and man’s sin only as occasions and means for displaying all the power of his arm and the whole measure of the love he wanted to give the world: *
Sorry to quote so much, but the source of communion with God and creation comes from our own CCC, also their harmony as creatures within themselves, each other and creation.
If communion does not mean a sort of peace and harmony with God and creation to you, can I ask what it does mean? I know you often refer to living in God’s life by being in a state of grace, or words close to this, and believe that means being at peace with God’s will, and harmony with others and creation.
I maybe going off topic, but my point was about A&E being in communion with God from their creation.
Got to run will, nip back later
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fhansen
Guest
In any case our communion with God on this earth is only a relatively dim foretaste or shadow of the BV.** “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”** 1 Cor 13:12. Human desire is by no means totally fulfilled or satsified yet, at this point.:ehh:
I don’t know what you think being in communion with God means, I’m still learning that myself, I also have no idea what other people think it is. Maybe you are thinking some people are of the lovey dovey la la land of communion and harmony with God?
From the CCC :
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
*Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}. *
*760 Christians of the first centuries said, "The world was created for the sake of the Church."153 God created the world for the sake of communion with his divine life, a communion brought about by the “convocation” of men in Christ, and this “convocation” is the Church. The Church is the goal of all things,154 and God permitted such painful upheavals as the angels’ fall and man’s sin only as occasions and means for displaying all the power of his arm and the whole measure of the love he wanted to give the world: *
Sorry to quote so much, but the source of communion with God and creation comes from our own CCC, also their harmony as creatures within themselves, each other and creation.
If communion does not mean a sort of peace and harmony with God and creation to you, can I ask what it does mean? I know you often refer to living in God’s life by being in a state of grace, or words close to this, and believe that means being at peace with God’s will, and harmony with others and creation.
I maybe going off topic, but my point was about A&E being in communion with God from their creation.
Got to run will, nip back later
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Richca
Guest
On this analysis, maybe Christ should have sinned so he could see what it is like to be a sinner. Of course, this would be heretical and then Christ himself would need a redeemer. Sin and the consequences of sin are not a mark of what it is to be truly human or a perfect human but on the contrary I think, they are a mark of a sinful and defectible human. Christ was and is a perfect man, he is our model of perfection.
The fathers of the second council of Constantinople (553), the fifth Ecumenical Council of the Church, rejected this teaching of Theodore of Mopsuestia that Christ “was burdened with the passions of the soul and the desires of the flesh” (Enchiridion Symbolorum. 224).
In virtue of Christ’s freedom of original sin, bodily defects such as being capable of suffering and death were not in Him as in other humans, i.e., as consequences of original sin, but He voluntarily adopted them in order, for example, to make a vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind, to demonstrate the reality of His human nature, and to afford mankind a model of patience in the bearing of suffering. Jesus said "This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again.* This command I have received from my Father.”(John 10: 17-18).
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simpleas
Guest
Well if they were intended to struggle and to appreciate God more so, then the CCC needs to be re-written about the fall. Just my thoughts.But why should they be attracted away from God and towards satan and his lies? Yes, Eden involved no struggle, unless for a struggle of the wills. Man still had his obligation to his Creator, he still had to *decide *. And to make the right decision, it appears, A&E apparently needed to struggle even more anyway, in order to gain an appreciation of the love, peace, and harmony that they ended up forsaking. It’s *hard *to find God-and to find why we need Him-but it’s a good struggle if the end is still Him.
Anyway, I don’t think A&E were meant to stay neutral; they needed to act, to define their position vis a vis God. Only to the extent that they chose Him and His will would the promises be or remain theirs. Do you think that Adam & Eve loved God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength? Because, if not, then they still had a ways to go.
In a way, maybe Eden was just *too *darn easy.
I don’t know, maybe they did love God with their minds, soul etc, there was nothing tempting in the way until satan arrived. Even though they sinned, they were ashamed after all, that to me proves they did love God.
What do you mean by them staying neutral, if their end was to be complete in God, then staying in communion and harmony with God is the obvious choice, don’t you think?
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davidv
Guest
So, why do you think that people choose the non-obvious option?Well if they were intended to struggle and to appreciate God more so, then the CCC needs to be re-written about the fall. Just my thoughts.
I don’t know, maybe they did love God with their minds, soul etc, there was nothing tempting in the way until satan arrived. Even though they sinned, they were ashamed after all, that to me proves they did love God.
What do you mean by them staying neutral, if their end was to be complete in God, then staying in communion and harmony with God is the obvious choice, don’t you think?
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simpleas
Guest
I know why people now choose the non obvious, but we are discussing the first two humans created without sin.
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fhansen
Guest
OK?? So why do you suppose the first two humans didn’t choose the obvious?I know why people now choose the non obvious, but we are discussing the first two humans created without sin.
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