Adam & Logic

[grannymh]

Thanks for that, you did nearly answer my question.

What did you find that answered the question that God made only one male/female rather than a group we evolved from?

In post 868, I included both modern science disciplines (plural intended) and ancient epics in my list of information sources.

In the beginning of human life, natural science (today’s multitude of science categories and specialties) is founded on human curiosity. The human ability to be curious about our universe is demonstrated in the first verses of Genesis, chapter 1. We brilliant moderns make the mistake of comparing the Genesis descriptions of their material environment with our description of our material environment. What we ignore is the rational abilities of the author which are capable of examining the amazing sky and earth. We also ignore that Genesis author’s ability to build on previous information by organizing it into more understandable segments. The beginning verses of Genesis can be understood in the terminology of their day.

The knowledge needed to operate space stations had to start somewhere.

God making only one female and one male needs to be examined in terms of the terminology or semantics of the first three chapters of Genesis. Just because the author did not have 21st century textbooks does not mean that he was incapable of the first principle of natural science which is – observe without prejudice.

This thread’s axiom 2. “God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.” includes a number of things like the fact that our decomposing anatomy is still being studied in natural science. We can also legitimately look at our decomposing skin and bones as described in the first three chapters of Genesis. In addition, we have to face the fact that many of the Catholic doctrines which flow from the initial Genesis chapters were slowly revealed by God throughout Holy Scripture and culminated in Jesus Christ. (information sources: CCC, 65-67; CCC, 410-411)

Please note:

This cranky granny does not intend to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I share my sources of information by listing sources such as Holy Scripture, the* Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition*, and the protocol of the visible Catholic Church in regard to Divine Revelation. It is rare that I use quotation marks for a line by line rendition of the CCC. There are certain CCC teachings which, in my humble opinion, do need a line by line official quotation. On the other hand, I believe that readers should have the opportunity to read beyond the words I use. That is why I provide extensive sources to choose from. Finally, the opening post clearly states the source of information that I intend to use.

Back to the list of sources for information which can be used to demonstrate the unique position of Adam and Eve as founders of humankind. (post 868)

The beginning of this post is actually asking readers to give the Genesis author credit for his human curiosity which is the base or foundation for all human knowledge. As I learned in my childhood neighborhood, “Curiosity killed the cat. Satisfaction brought it back.” This post is only one piece of the beautiful puzzle of our ancestors biblically known as Adam and Eve.

What did I find that explains the creation of only two human persons as founders of the human species. ???

There is no single “what”. What there is – is a series of interlocking clues. The above is one clue to hang on to and then compare it with the clues found in the ancient epics.That comparison will be dealt with in subsequent posts. I need to leave space for readers’ questions.

I tell my kids that I am going to live to the age of 104 because I enjoy annoying them. I also told my grannykids that when I grow up I want to be Mary Poppins. The reality is that I, like most people, are driven by curiosity. We hate the idea of learning ending. We are told to keep our minds sharp as a means to good health. Therefore, I will continue the ideas in this post and continue to explore the list in post 868 in order to demonstrate the reality of the first two and only two human residents in an organic Garden on planet earth.

Someday I will know how to slide up the staircase railing.

 

[aragonjohn1]

In post 868, I included both modern science disciplines (plural intended) and ancient epics in my list of information sources.

In the beginning of human life, natural science (today’s multitude of science categories and specialties) is founded on human curiosity. The human ability to be curious about our universe is demonstrated in the first verses of Genesis, chapter 1. We brilliant moderns make the mistake of comparing the Genesis descriptions of their material environment with our description of our material environment. What we ignore is the rational abilities of the author which are capable of examining the amazing sky and earth. We also ignore that Genesis author’s ability to build on previous information by organizing it into more understandable segments. The beginning verses of Genesis can be understood in the terminology of their day.

The knowledge needed to operate space stations had to start somewhere.

God making only one female and one male needs to be examined in terms of the terminology or semantics of the first three chapters of Genesis. Just because the author did not have 21st century textbooks does not mean that he was incapable of the first principle of natural science which is – observe without prejudice.

This thread’s axiom 2. “God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.” includes a number of things like the fact that our decomposing anatomy is still being studied in natural science. We can also legitimately look at our decomposing skin and bones as described in the first three chapters of Genesis. " In addition, we have to face the fact that many of the Catholic doctrines which flow from the initial Genesis chapters were slowly revealed by God throughout Holy Scripture and culminated in Jesus Christ ". (information sources: CCC, 65-67; CCC, 410-411)

Please note:

This cranky granny does not intend to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I share my sources of information by listing sources such as Holy Scripture, the* Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition*, and the protocol of the visible Catholic Church in regard to Divine Revelation. It is rare that I use quotation marks for a line by line rendition of the CCC. There are certain CCC teachings which, in my humble opinion, do need a line by line official quotation. On the other hand, I believe that readers should have the opportunity to read beyond the words I use. That is why I provide extensive sources to choose from. Finally, the opening post clearly states the source of information that I intend to use.

Back to the list of sources for information which can be used to demonstrate the unique position of Adam and Eve as founders of humankind. (post 868)

The beginning of this post is actually asking readers to give the Genesis author credit for his human curiosity which is the base or foundation for all human knowledge. As I learned in my childhood neighborhood, “Curiosity killed the cat. Satisfaction brought it back.” This post is only one piece of the beautiful puzzle of our ancestors biblically known as Adam and Eve.

What did I find that explains the creation of only two human persons as founders of the human species. ???

There is no single “what”. What there is – is a series of interlocking clues. The above is one clue to hang on to and then compare it with the clues found in the ancient epics.That comparison will be dealt with in subsequent posts. I need to leave space for readers’ questions.

I tell my kids that I am going to live to the age of 104 because I enjoy annoying them. I also told my grannykids that when I grow up I want to be Mary Poppins. The reality is that I, like most people, are driven by curiosity. We hate the idea of learning ending. We are told to keep our minds sharp as a means to good health. Therefore, I will continue the ideas in this post and continue to explore the list in post 868 in order to demonstrate the reality of the first two and only two human residents in an organic Garden on planet earth.

Someday I will know how to slide up the staircase railing.

so, little we all know now, so much to learn, what kind of ancient epics do you speak of: legend, history, myth? curiousity leads to reason is faith then is derived from Love and Truth? " . We brilliant moderns make the mistake of comparing the Genesis descriptions of their material environment with our description of our material environment. What we ignore is the rational abilities of the author which are capable of examining the amazing sky and earth. We also ignore that Genesis author’s ability to build on previous information by organizing it into more understandable segments. The beginning verses of Genesis can be understood in the terminology of their day. " what other methods of interpretation does catholicism teach in the Love of the Word?

Thank You

God bless

 

[dmwessel]

In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.

Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.

Pardon me for jumping in late (and my question may have been asked already) but I know for certain that the Vatican supports evolution. How then does the Catholic Church explain that in the context of Adam?

 

[simpleas]

In post 868, I included both modern science disciplines (plural intended) and ancient epics in my list of information sources.

In the beginning of human life, natural science (today’s multitude of science categories and specialties) is founded on human curiosity. The human ability to be curious about our universe is demonstrated in the first verses of Genesis, chapter 1. We brilliant moderns make the mistake of comparing the Genesis descriptions of their material environment with our description of our material environment. What we ignore is the rational abilities of the author which are capable of examining the amazing sky and earth. We also ignore that Genesis author’s ability to build on previous information by organizing it into more understandable segments. The beginning verses of Genesis can be understood in the terminology of their day.

The knowledge needed to operate space stations had to start somewhere.

God making only one female and one male needs to be examined in terms of the terminology or semantics of the first three chapters of Genesis. Just because the author did not have 21st century textbooks does not mean that he was incapable of the first principle of natural science which is – observe without prejudice.

This thread’s axiom 2. “God as Creator interacts with humans by bringing them into existence and maintaining their existence.” includes a number of things like the fact that our decomposing anatomy is still being studied in natural science. We can also legitimately look at our decomposing skin and bones as described in the first three chapters of Genesis. In addition, we have to face the fact that many of the Catholic doctrines which flow from the initial Genesis chapters were slowly revealed by God throughout Holy Scripture and culminated in Jesus Christ. (information sources: CCC, 65-67; CCC, 410-411)

Please note:

This cranky granny does not intend to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I share my sources of information by listing sources such as Holy Scripture, the* Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition*, and the protocol of the visible Catholic Church in regard to Divine Revelation. It is rare that I use quotation marks for a line by line rendition of the CCC. There are certain CCC teachings which, in my humble opinion, do need a line by line official quotation. On the other hand, I believe that readers should have the opportunity to read beyond the words I use. That is why I provide extensive sources to choose from. Finally, the opening post clearly states the source of information that I intend to use.

Back to the list of sources for information which can be used to demonstrate the unique position of Adam and Eve as founders of humankind. (post 868)

The beginning of this post is actually asking readers to give the Genesis author credit for his human curiosity which is the base or foundation for all human knowledge. As I learned in my childhood neighborhood, “Curiosity killed the cat. Satisfaction brought it back.” This post is only one piece of the beautiful puzzle of our ancestors biblically known as Adam and Eve.

What did I find that explains the creation of only two human persons as founders of the human species. ???

There is no single “what”. What there is – is a series of interlocking clues. The above is one clue to hang on to and then compare it with the clues found in the ancient epics.That comparison will be dealt with in subsequent posts. I need to leave space for readers’ questions.

I tell my kids that I am going to live to the age of 104 because I enjoy annoying them. I also told my grannykids that when I grow up I want to be Mary Poppins. The reality is that I, like most people, are driven by curiosity. We hate the idea of learning ending. We are told to keep our minds sharp as a means to good health. Therefore, I will continue the ideas in this post and continue to explore the list in post 868 in order to demonstrate the reality of the first two and only two human residents in an organic Garden on planet earth.

Someday I will know how to slide up the staircase railing.

Great positive post.

I hope more readers post up question’s.

Its like the never ending story

 

[grannymh]

Pardon me for jumping in late (and my question may have been asked already) but I know for certain that the Vatican supports evolution. How then does the Catholic Church explain that in the context of Adam?

Glad to have you join us.

Please note the sticky in the top of this Forum
Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/multipage.gif 12)
Jo Benedict

With proper respect of the ban, I will reply from the position of the Vatican.

First, the Catholic Church recognizes that there is a variety of scientific “evolution” theories. Some apply to plants, or to bacteria, or to animals, or to human’s decomposing anatomy. Thus, it is an urban myth or urban legend that the “Vatican supports evolution” as if it had no clue about the differences between plants, bacteria, animals, and the human person.

On the other hand, members of the Catholic clergy often give their opinions on this or that point in science. And the media gobbles up every word which sounds like a contradiction of Adam. What has to be remembered is that members of the clergy have the same right as ordinary folk to let loose with opinions, even wrong opinions. Opinions do not a doctrine make.

In order to sort everything out, we can start with the Catholic doctrines on human origin. Did the first human parents live in Africa is a geographical issue not related to the human goal of reaching heaven; therefore, there is no official doctrinal teaching on the “Out of Africa theory” which currently reigns. Did the first human parents have a rational spiritual soul? The current scientific “emergence theory” substitutes some form of material epiphenomenon for God’s creative action at conception. This theory opposes the need for the spiritual in order to attain joy eternal after bodily death. Therefore, the Catholic Church says no to that “evolution” theory.

Catholic teachings explain Adam first of all in the spiritual context. Then Adam is explained as living in a material universe. For example. In the first three chapters of Genesis, Adam had the responsibility of naming animals. We have the responsibility of using animals properly. Adam had the responsibility to cultivate and care for the Garden. We have the responsibility for using our earth properly. Adam had the marriage responsibility of loving Eve as the two of them became “one body.” Today, that moral responsibility to be true to each other is often avoided.

What the above suggests is that all of us, regardless of our faith or no faith, can make use of the Catholic approach to Adam. Even the basic concept that Adam was special can lead to the conclusion that because we are human descendants of Adam, we are individually special. Our own life on planet earth is uniquely special – even non-theists can understand that.

 

[dmwessel]

Originally Posted by grannymh View Post

In post 868, I included both modern science disciplines (plural intended) and ancient epics in my list of information sources.

In the beginning of human life, natural science (today’s multitude of science categories and specialties) is founded on human curiosity. The human ability to be curious about our universe is demonstrated in the first verses of Genesis, chapter 1. We brilliant moderns make the mistake of comparing the Genesis descriptions of their material environment with our description of our material environment. What we ignore is the rational abilities of the author which are capable of examining the amazing sky and earth. We also ignore that Genesis author’s ability to build on previous information by organizing it into more understandable segments. The beginning verses of Genesis can be understood in the terminology of their day.

The knowledge needed to operate space stations had to start somewhere.

God making only one female and one male needs to be examined in terms of the terminology or semantics of the first three chapters of Genesis. Just because the author did not have 21st century textbooks does not mean that he was incapable of the first principle of natural science which is – observe without prejudice.

Do you explain the seeming sudden appearance of Adam as being:

1. molded from a lump of clay into the form of a human male into which God immediately breathed the breath of life and Adam ‘came alive’
2. evolutionary development

 

[grannymh]

Do you explain the seeming sudden appearance of Adam as being:

1. molded from a lump of clay into the form of a human male into which God immediately breathed the breath of life and Adam ‘came alive’

Genesis 2: 7, referenced in point 1, is one marvelous explanation on a par with classical literature. At the same time, it can be read as both literal and figurative. Its simplicity leads the reader’s mind to further great thoughts about the mighty God Creator and the amazing unique pinnacle of creation which is the human person who is worthy of profound respect. Hours can be spent digging its gems.

How would I explain the sudden appearance of Adam? I would simply say that it is an historical fact similar, not the same, to the historical fact that you and I exist.

1. evolutionary development

May I suggest a re-reading of post 874.

By definition, natural science is confined to the material/physical world. Therefore, any kind of development would come from existing material matter in this world. The sudden appearance of Adam not only signaled the advent of a new species, it was a sign that the new species was different in kind from all others. What made Adam peerless is his God-created spiritual soul. The spiritual does not somehow burst forth from a decomposing anatomy.

Going back to Genesis 2: 7, we can see the literal reality of God as Creator in His act of Creation. Figuratively we see that God is the superior being because He can give a creature a share of His life. Breath can be seen figuratively, that is, representing God’s life. What is really interesting about the literal view of the word breath is that God Himself would not need breath because He is a pure spiritual transcendent super-natural being. The literal breath used by God becomes the means of connecting Adam to his Creator. We are free to think about a literal breath as the literal creation of our spiritual soul which is why we can enjoy a relationship with our spiritual Creator. A literal breath is possible for a Supreme Creator.

Both the literal and figurative view of breath leads to the simple truth that humans are in the image of God in the sense that it is possible for us to share in God’s life. (information source. CCC, 355-357)

 

[dmwessel]

Genesis 2: 7, referenced in point 1, is one marvelous explanation on a par with classical literature. At the same time, it can be read as both literal and figurative. Its simplicity leads the reader’s mind to further great thoughts about the mighty God Creator and the amazing unique pinnacle of creation which is the human person who is worthy of profound respect. Hours can be spent digging its gems.

How would I explain the sudden appearance of Adam? I would simply say that it is an historical fact similar, not the same, to the historical fact that you and I exist.

I’m sorry perhaps I’m missing it but you still haven’t told me what you mean exactly. Are you saying that you believe the God molded a male body from a lump of clay and immediately breathed life into it?

I will read 874 right away.

 

[djames99]

Thank you for your reply and yes I understand the teaching authority of the church, however my question remains even our recent popes leave open the possibility of human evolution according to God’s divine plan…it is the gift of the Spirit at some point along the evolutionary chain Man has received a Soul, man comes to know God and God calls us His Children.
Is it Possible that God gave a Soul to ONE MAN along that chain ? One Woman?
I don’t understand …does not God make a Soul for each person as they are born… It is the Soul that is not part of the evolutionary process,not the flesh.
Please if possible…I like more information.
Tony

Man always had a soul. Animals and plants only have an animating souls. Man had a soul with other capabilities besides.

 

[grannymh]

I’m sorry perhaps I’m missing it but you still haven’t told me what you mean exactly. Are you saying that you believe the God molded a male body from a lump of clay and immediately breathed life into it?

I will read 874 right away.

Here is post 875.

Originally Posted by grannymh View Post

Do you explain the seeming sudden appearance of Adam as being:

1. molded from a lump of clay into the form of a human male into which God immediately breathed the breath of life and Adam ‘came alive’
2. evolutionary development

Please pardon my boldness. I simply dismissed option 1). I did not choose to answer 2) directly because I was worried that I would slip into the banned topic. Post 874 is more an overview of the Catholic general approach to science issues.

I am used to seeing “sudden appearance” as referring to Adam after the Fall when he appeared merged with other living creatures. That is why I consider his appearance an historical fact.

You are also correct in referring to Adam’s *sudden *appearance in Eden. And option 1) does describe Adam’s nature either figuratively or literally.
Thank you.

In my own search for meanings, I sometimes shy away from complicated or controversial meanings and go straight to the heart of the situation which is that Adam really.

Please accept my apology for being too vague in my original reply to you.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Are you saying that you believe the God molded a male body from a lump of clay and immediately breathed life into it?

You didn’t ask me, but if you did, I would respond that I don’t know. I also don’t believe science will ever tell us since the soul is not something that it studies or about which it can provide any sort of opinion.
It would be interesting to know, if it is the case, what makes you believe it could not happen. What are the basic assumptions that underlie such a belief?

 

[simpleas]

Talking about souls…

Years ago I heard that when a person dies, they weigh slightly less than they did alive, this was something scientists couldn’t explain, and was thought to be the reason for less weight was the soul had left the body…

Maybe someone was pulling my leg? lol

 

[Aloysium]

Talking about souls…

Years ago I heard that when a person dies, they weigh slightly less than they did alive, this was something scientists couldn’t explain, and was thought to be the reason for less weight was the soul had left the body…

Maybe someone was pulling my leg? lol

can’t speak to the motivation, but any change in weight would be due to fluid loss occuring between the two measurements
BTW: The body leaves the soul, which frequently struggles to stay as one.

 

[simpleas]

can’t speak to the motivation, but any change in weight would be due to fluid loss occuring between the two measurements
BTW: The body leaves the soul, which frequently struggles to stay as one.

The Body and soul are united, they can never be separated, until death…I would say…

Here’s what I must have heard about…just for interest

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor

 

[grannymh]

Thank you for your reply and yes I understand the teaching authority of the church, however my question remains even our recent popes leave open the possibility of human evolution according to God’s divine plan…it is the gift of the Spirit at some point along the evolutionary chain Man has received a Soul, man comes to know God and God calls us His Children.
Is it Possible that God gave a Soul to ONE MAN along that chain ? One Woman?
I don’t understand …does not God make a Soul for each person as they are born… It is the Soul that is not part of the evolutionary process,not the flesh.
Please if possible…I like more information.
Tony

The word “matter” is a general term which refers to the substance of physical/material things. It is loosely defined in science. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter or google matter.

When we look at ourselves, we can say that our physical anatomy is made of matter in the same way that we say that our anatomy is material. Matter can also be used to describe the physical bodies of animals, etc., though we really do not use the word matter in our casual conversations. Our soul is not matter because it is spiritual.

CCC, 365 says that it is because of our spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body. What is important to know is that the union of spiritual soul and material matter is instant at conception. This union, immediately created by God, is so profound that it becomes a single nature which is our human nature. As you say, God makes a soul for each person when they are born.

When we talk about Adam as the first human, we legitimately ask – where did the material matter of Adam’s body come from? We wonder about the fossils which are studied in the science of paleoanthropology. What produced the first human flesh?
I will try to explain the answers to those difficult questions.

The first answer is that God as Creator created human nature which is the unique unification of the spiritual world and the material world. What is most important is our spiritual soul which is why we can say we are in the image of God. Being in the image of God means that we have the opportunity to share in God’s life here on earth in the state of sanctifying grace and in heaven after bodily death. (information source, CCC, 355-357)

The difficult question concerns our human flesh, bones, blood and guts. Our anatomy is part of the material world which means that it is in the realm of science, especially medical science. Genesis 2: 7 says “the Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.” That is the best description of the creative power of God considering that no one actually saw the creation of the first human. The reason it is so good is that it clearly describes man’s nature coming from the material world (clay) and that the material or matter comes to life because of the spiritual soul (God’s breath).

The reason for our difficulty is that Genesis 2:7 does not contain definite information about the source of the material or matter which became our physical anatomy. Was there somehow preexisting matter which God could transform into a human anatomy or was the human anatomy instantly created for Adam? While it would be nice to have an exact answer, the real answer is that God created Adam, body and soul.

When it comes to the modern theories about the first human, we need to keep in mind that natural science can only examine the material anatomy of any living being. Over centuries, anatomies of animals often change in keeping with the changes in their environment. Likewise, there are humans whose lungs have adapted to living in extremely high altitudes. However, changes and adaptations are restricted to the anatomy. Anatomies alone cannot be used to determine if a living being is a human. We cannot say that over the centuries there is a chain of “human” anatomies because for an anatomy to be a “human” one, there has to be a spiritual soul – which means that there had to be a first, fully-complete human such as Adam. There cannot be humans before the existence of the first human.

When all is said and done, we have to leave the origin of humankind to God. Perhaps, the limitations of science are there in order to remind us that God the Creator is unlimited.

 

[grannymh]

so, little we all know now, so much to learn, what kind of ancient epics do you speak of: legend, history, myth?

Going back to when I first landed on CAF, there were a number of posts discussing the comparison of ancient literature with the early chapters of Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh was highlighted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh
From the *Wikipedia link. *Various themes, plot elements, and characters in the Epic of Gilgamesh have counterparts in the book of Genesis, notably the accounts of the Garden of Eden and Noah’s Flood. The parallels between the stories of Enkidu/Shamhat and Adam/Eve have been long recognized by scholars.
As I recall, legend, history, myth, and so on was in the CAF Gilgamesh conversation which often would end with a debate question – Did Genesis copy Gilgamesh or did Gilgamesh copy Genesis? In regard to your question “What kind of ancient epics do you speak of: legend, history, myth?” I would have to answer all of them.

However, this nit-picking granny is not totally comfortable with that short answer. Technically, I only consider the first three chapters of Genesis when writing about the existence of Adam. Then comes chapter four, which begins the population explosion. Considering the length of female fertility, including a healthy good looking Eve, people multiplied like rabbits. And just like today’s generations, some of Adam and Eve’s offspring kept to the teachings of their parents and some asked for their inheritance and went off to see the world. Therefore, what we need to learn from ancient writings is not which legend came first, but rather why are there are similarities.

Similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the first three chapters of Genesis indicate that there was one original story which, over time, absorbed added details or lost details as the original geographic origin of humans expanded and separated into new geographic locations across the globe. It is hard to imagine the amount of work facing the Holy Spirit when it came time to inspirer the author of the first three chapters of Genesis. Of course, this author had an edge because his people had kept intact the initial Revelation given by God and thus, he upfront stated the foundation for all truth which is Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth.” Still, the author had to figure out how to describe the indescribable. We need to remember that he wasn’t a Ph.D. scientist.

The message I took home from the CAF ancient epics discussions is that there is a unity to humanity as evinced in similar ancient stories which go back to the original story transmitted by the principal actors (Adam and Eve) in that story. In my mind, I have this mental picture of the Holy Spirit looking over the shoulder of the Genesis author who is writing. Most of the time, the Holy Spirit is smiling; but now and then, He hands an eraser to the author.

To be continued.

 

[grannymh]

Continued from post 885.

There is one more way that the ancient epics became a source of information to be used in examining the nature of Adam pre-Fall. It follows from the first part of CCC, 28.
**28 **In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:
Checking the cross-references in the margin, I found this CCC paragraph.
**2566 **Man is in search of God. In the act of creation, God calls every being from nothingness into existence. “Crowned with glory and honor,” man is, after the angels, capable of acknowledging “how majestic is the name of the Lord in all the earth.” Even after losing through his sin his likeness to God, man remains an image of his Creator, and retains the desire for the one who calls him into existence. All religions bear witness to men’s essential search for God.
When reading these two valuable paragraphs, we need to keep in mind that frail humanity’s search for God does not mean that every search and every action is pure, good, and beautiful. For the purposes of the Adam & Logic thread, the take home message is that an awareness of the super-natural is inherent in human nature both
pre-Fall and post-Fall.

The following from the Wikipedia article on the* Epic of Gilgamesh* is evidence that Epic writers were interested in spiritual issues such as eternal life and the source of life and death due to gods who created man. The probing back to the dawn of human history occurs because the desire for super-natural information was natural to them.

Again, it is not the content of the epics that we use in relation to Adam, it is the fact that all human nature has the ability to search out what is beyond the confines of our material environment.
From the Wikipedia link in post 885. In the second half of the epic, Gilgamesh’s distress at Enkidu’s death causes him to undertake a long and perilous journey to discover the secret of eternal life. He eventually learns that “Life, which you look for, you will never find. For when the gods created man, they let death be his share, and life withheld in their own hands”.

There is always the question asking why one couple. The above is mainly about the human’s inherent ability to go above and beyond what we normally consider blood and guts, skin and bones. Genesis 2: 15-17 describes human’s inherent freedom to be master over his acts. In spite of a wounded nature, the human person, post-Fall, can still seek his Creator and freely share in His life. (information source.
CCC, 1730-1732: CCC, 356; CCC, 2258)

We do know by Revelation that Adam’s original state of living in harmony with God was meant for all human nature. (CCC, 404) All Adam’s descendants would receive by propagation his original nature which includes the freedom of rational thought and the freedom to shape one’s own life.

Depending on Adam’s response to the temptation of Satan, all descendants would receive the extraordinary gift of immortality or not receive it . (CCC, 376) In order to maintain the truth of “all”, there could not be another human who had Adam’s same individual responsibility. Recall that all mankind is in Adam as one body of one man. (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, l; CCC, 404)

The second man, like Adam, would have a free intellect and will and could choose to deny God. Therefore, if Adam chose to remain faithful to God’s law, it would not be possible for all humanity to receive Adam’s gift of immortality at the same time that all humanity was contracting the second man’s state of separation from God which results in the loss of immortality. If both men made the same choice, then Occam’s razor or parsimony would apply. The creation of Adam’s “clone” would not be necessary.

 

[grannymh]

Regarding the Senses of Scripture. CCC, 115-119; How to read the account of the Fall, CCC, 390)

Many, not all, today’s readers of the first three chapters of Genesis are promoting the Scientific Sense. Motto: Genesis is not a scientific textbook.

The truth is that non-scientific liturature can describe the reality of the human person’s nature. For example. Read Genesis, chapter two, which was definitely not written by a Ph.D. scientist. Authors of non-scientific literature do have the capability of describing the characteristics of a human being.

1. Perusing chapter two, we discover that the Genesis author places Adam in time and space which is the first thing needed for a real human being.
2. The author does not equate Adam with God. While that description is not always necessary today, we have to recognize that in ancient times there were all kinds of gods in the “super-natural” sense. Adam, unlike God, has to eat to stay alive. Food is recognized as being a material substance since it comes from the material world of plants and trees. The need to eat tells us that Adam actually existed in the material world.
3. Note: There are ancient cultures which did offer food to the gods. Some offered human sacrifices as a way to gain favor with the gods. What this tells us is that humans universally have recognized that communication between a human and a super-natural deity is possible. Genesis chapters two and three have plenty of divine conversations which demonstrate that Adam was a real person communicating with God.
4. Ancient peoples were not scientifically curious about the world. They knew that rain falls from the sky which is good for gardening. Ancients accepted their surroundings and dealt with them. If the surroundings changed detrimentally, for example a long drought, they migrated to greener pastures. Interestingly, the Genesis author has God acting on behalf of first humans by creating a garden not subject to droughts. Evidence that it is possible for God to create both a garden and a real gardener is Genesis 1:1 and the Creed professed at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
5. The author describes the fact that God carefully creates and sustains the first human person as the pinnacle of His earthly creation. Considering this aspect, it is common sense that the first human abode would be special. To make sure that the reader knew that the first gardener’s garden was top drawer, four rivers, needed for gardening in times of drought, are described and the land has precious gold.

To be continued in post 888.

 

[grannymh]

Continued from post 887. Scripture reference is Genesis, chapter two.

1. It is important to recognize that the Catholic Church holds that the Holy Spirit inspired the Genesis author in spite of the fact that he was not writing a science textbook. Therefore, it is understandable and acceptable that chapter two refers back to Genesis 1:27. According to the Holy Spirit (Who inspired the Genesis author), humanity is destined to share in God’s divine life not only like Adam did on planet earth, but also in heaven’s eternal joy. This tells us that Adam also belongs in the spiritual world in addition to existing in the material world in point 2 in post 887. In fact, the Genesis author separates the creation of man from the creation of all other living organisms from cattle to creeping things. The first created human is described as being in the image of God. Because we, as a real human, are in the image of God, it follows that Adam is a living person like us because he is in the image of God.
2. Being in the image of God, having a spiritual soul, gives a real human person the ability to communicate with God. We call that prayer and listening to Jesus in the Gospels. In the Catholic Church, the summit of communication is the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. In chapter two, there is meaningful intellective rational communication between Adam and His Creator. While God is Creator of all, seen and unseen, it is His communication with Adan which signifies that Adam is a living person.
3. One of the prominent characteristics of a human being is his intellective rational abilities. The tools of reason include but are not limited to observation, analysis, conceptual thought, self-reflection, logical evaluation, and creativity. The Genesis author does not describe Adam using these skills on his own which Adam certainly could have done. Rather, Adam exercises his mental capabilities in the presence of the Creator.
4. “In the presence of the Creator” leads us to the Divine Revelation that Adam is the real first human. If material anatomies were all that is necessary in order for a living organism to have the tools of reason mentioned in point 8, then birds not only could fly, but could also figure out how to land on the moon. When examining all the species, including the newly discovered ones, we find only one species which has all the human characteristics. That species had to begin from a first human being, because the defining characteristic of a spiritual soul in the image of God does not evolve from material substances in the universe.
5. Obviously, “In the presence of the Creator” means that we believe in a Divine Creator Who can interact with a first human being biblically known as Adam. Because of a real Original Sin, we believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and it is He Who established the Catholic Church. This means that we cannot avoid St. Paul’s comparisons between the real Jesus Christ and the real first human Adam. Romans 5: 12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22. Nor can we avoid Humani generis, #35 “If such conjectural opinions are directly or indirectly opposed to the doctrine revealed by God, then the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.” vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

 

[simpleas]

Going back to when I first landed on CAF, there were a number of posts discussing the comparison of ancient literature with the early chapters of Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh was highlighted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh
From the *Wikipedia link. *Various themes, plot elements, and characters in the Epic of Gilgamesh have counterparts in the book of Genesis, notably the accounts of the Garden of Eden and Noah’s Flood. The parallels between the stories of Enkidu/Shamhat and Adam/Eve have been long recognized by scholars.
As I recall, legend, history, myth, and so on was in the CAF Gilgamesh conversation which often would end with a debate question – Did Genesis copy Gilgamesh or did Gilgamesh copy Genesis? In regard to your question “What kind of ancient epics do you speak of: legend, history, myth?” I would have to answer all of them.

However, this nit-picking granny is not totally comfortable with that short answer. Technically, I only consider the first three chapters of Genesis when writing about the existence of Adam. Then comes chapter four, which begins the population explosion. Considering the length of female fertility, including a healthy good looking Eve, people multiplied like rabbits. And just like today’s generations, some of Adam and Eve’s offspring kept to the teachings of their parents and some asked for their inheritance and went off to see the world. Therefore, what we need to learn from ancient writings is not which legend came first, but rather why are there are similarities.

Similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the first three chapters of Genesis indicate that there was one original story which, over time, absorbed added details or lost details as the original geographic origin of humans expanded and separated into new geographic locations across the globe. It is hard to imagine the amount of work facing the Holy Spirit when it came time to inspirer the author of the first three chapters of Genesis. Of course, this author had an edge because his people had kept intact the initial Revelation given by God and thus, he upfront stated the foundation for all truth which is Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth.” Still, the author had to figure out how to describe the indescribable. We need to remember that he wasn’t a Ph.D. scientist.

The message I took home from the CAF ancient epics discussions is that there is a unity to humanity as evinced in similar ancient stories which go back to the original story transmitted by the principal actors (Adam and Eve) in that story. In my mind, I have this mental picture of the Holy Spirit looking over the shoulder of the Genesis author who is writing. Most of the time, the Holy Spirit is smiling; but now and then, He hands an eraser to the author.

To be continued.

Excuse me…why must it be Eve thats heathly and good looking? LOL