Adam & Logic

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Regarding the Senses of Scripture. CCC, 115-119; How to read the account of the Fall, CCC, 390)

Many, not all, today’s readers of the first three chapters of Genesis are promoting the Scientific Sense. Motto: Genesis is not a scientific textbook.

The truth is that non-scientific liturature can describe the reality of the human person’s nature. For example. Read Genesis, chapter two, which was definitely not written by a Ph.D. scientist. Authors of non-scientific literature do have the capability of describing the characteristics of a human being.
  1. Perusing chapter two, we discover that the Genesis author places Adam in time and space which is the first thing needed for a real human being.
  2. The author does not equate Adam with God. While that description is not always necessary today, we have to recognize that in ancient times there were all kinds of gods in the “super-natural” sense. Adam, unlike God, has to eat to stay alive. Food is recognized as being a material substance since it comes from the material world of plants and trees. The need to eat tells us that Adam actually existed in the material world.
  3. Note: There are ancient cultures which did offer food to the gods. Some offered human sacrifices as a way to gain favor with the gods. What this tells us is that humans universally have recognized that communication between a human and a super-natural deity is possible. Genesis chapters two and three have plenty of divine conversations which demonstrate that Adam was a real person communicating with God.
  4. Ancient peoples were not scientifically curious about the world. They knew that rain falls from the sky which is good for gardening. Ancients accepted their surroundings and dealt with them. If the surroundings changed detrimentally, for example a long drought, they migrated to greener pastures. Interestingly, the Genesis author has God acting on behalf of first humans by creating a garden not subject to droughts. Evidence that it is possible for God to create both a garden and a real gardener is Genesis 1:1 and the Creed professed at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
  5. The author describes the fact that God carefully creates and sustains the first human person as the pinnacle of His earthly creation. Considering this aspect, it is common sense that the first human abode would be special. To make sure that the reader knew that the first gardener’s garden was top drawer, four rivers, needed for gardening in times of drought, are described and the land has precious gold.
To be continued in post 888.
Have you done any research into sacrifices of ancient times? I must have a “google”. I wondered why people then thought that offering food to a God they could not see would win them favor. I suppose it was an offering as something they had little of and so presenting it to a deity was all they could do…How sacrificing another human came to be I’ll have to look up.

Thanks 🙂
 
Have you done any research into sacrifices of ancient times? I must have a “google”. I wondered why people then thought that offering food to a God they could not see would win them favor. I suppose it was an offering as something they had little of and so presenting it to a deity was all they could do…How sacrificing another human came to be I’ll have to look up.

Thanks 🙂
This quote, from Pope Benedict’s/Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity, might be of interest to you:

“Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.
 
This quote, from Pope Benedict’s/Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity, might be of interest to you:

“Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.
Thanks for that.
But I was looking for a little referrence to human sacrifices, I came across this pretty easily and after reading it…whew…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

Adam had say a good relationship with God before the fall, so maybe he didn’t offer God any sort of gifts, because he didn’t need to, he had a friendship with his God, maybe a sort of peaceful living experience which we too can sometimes grasp in the midst of a crazy world.
After the fall, the distored vision of God appears, Adam is afraid. I just think how it came to be from not needing to appease God or offer him anything, to actually offering humans as an appeasement to God.
I think I may have a disordered view as to how Adam’s mind/rational thought worked from the moment of sin to the process after…
 
Thanks for that.
But I was looking for a little referrence to human sacrifices, I came across this pretty easily and after reading it…whew…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

Adam had say a good relationship with God before the fall, so maybe he didn’t offer God any sort of gifts, because he didn’t need to, he had a friendship with his God, maybe a sort of peaceful living experience which we too can sometimes grasp in the midst of a crazy world.
After the fall, the distored vision of God appears, Adam is afraid. I just think how it came to be from not needing to appease God or offer him anything, to actually offering humans as an appeasement to God.
I think I may have a disordered view as to how Adam’s mind/rational thought worked from the moment of sin to the process after…
Being in the state of Original Holiness (Sanctifying Grace), Adam gave himself to God – which is the greatest gift possible. Unfortunately, he yielded to the temptation of Satan.

Your description in post 894 is on target not only pre-Fall, but also in our lives post-Fall.
“… he had a friendship with his God, maybe a sort of peaceful living experience which we too can sometimes grasp in the midst of a crazy world.”

Original Sin did not destroy Adam’s human nature. Adam had shattered the relationship between humanity and Divinity. Yet, his wounded nature remained “in the image of God”. As long as he was alive on earth, Adam had the freedom to seek his Creator and freely share in His life. This is why, as you pointed out, we too can have peace in our crazy world.

Knowing what we know about the preciousness of human nature, we wonder how human sacrifice came to be. Because Adam’s descendants have the same freedom of choice, there is always the possibility of choosing between good and evil.

An additional thought –
Maybe, as we delve into the logic of Adam, not only will we find the truth of his existence, but our understanding of the human condition will become clearer. 😃

(Sources of information: CCC, 356-357; CCC, 396-400; CCC, 405-406;* CCC*, 401; CCC, 407; CCC,705; CCC, 1730-1732)
 
As long as he was alive on earth, Adam had the freedom to seek his Creator and freely share in His life. This is why, as you pointed out, we too can have peace in our crazy world.
I wonder if this is true-that Adam could still have shared in God’s life after the Fall, and obviously before Jesus’ advent. Man had been banned from the Tree of Life-and had never actually eaten from it-and God, the giver of life, hadn’t yet shown up to do His work of Atonement. Thoughts on this?
 
Continued from post 885.

There is one more way that the ancient epics became a source of information to be used in examining the nature of Adam pre-Fall. It follows from the first part of CCC, 28.
**28 **In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:
Checking the cross-references in the margin, I found this CCC paragraph.
**2566 **Man is in search of God. In the act of creation, God calls every being from nothingness into existence. “Crowned with glory and honor,” man is, after the angels, capable of acknowledging “how majestic is the name of the Lord in all the earth.” Even after losing through his sin his likeness to God, man remains an image of his Creator, and retains the desire for the one who calls him into existence. All religions bear witness to men’s essential search for God.
When reading these two valuable paragraphs, we need to keep in mind that frail humanity’s search for God does not mean that every search and every action is pure, good, and beautiful. For the purposes of the Adam & Logic thread, the take home message is that an awareness of the super-natural is inherent in human nature both
pre-Fall and post-Fall.

The following from the Wikipedia article on the* Epic of Gilgamesh* is evidence that Epic writers were interested in spiritual issues such as eternal life and the source of life and death due to gods who created man. The probing back to the dawn of human history occurs because the desire for super-natural information was natural to them.

Again, it is not the content of the epics that we use in relation to Adam, it is the fact that all human nature has the ability to search out what is beyond the confines of our material environment.
From the Wikipedia link in post 885. In the second half of the epic, Gilgamesh’s distress at Enkidu’s death causes him to undertake a long and perilous journey to discover the secret of eternal life. He eventually learns that “Life, which you look for, you will never find. For when the gods created man, they let death be his share, and life withheld in their own hands”.

There is always the question asking why one couple. The above is mainly about the human’s inherent ability to go above and beyond what we normally consider blood and guts, skin and bones. Genesis 2: 15-17 describes human’s inherent freedom to be master over his acts. In spite of a wounded nature, the human person, post-Fall, can still seek his Creator and freely share in His life. (information source.
CCC, 1730-1732: CCC, 356; CCC, 2258)

We do know by Revelation that Adam’s original state of living in harmony with God was meant for all human nature. (CCC, 404) All Adam’s descendants would receive by propagation his original nature which includes the freedom of rational thought and the freedom to shape one’s own life.

Depending on Adam’s response to the temptation of Satan, all descendants would receive the extraordinary gift of immortality or not receive it . (CCC, 376) In order to maintain the truth of “all”, there could not be another human who had Adam’s same individual responsibility. Recall that all mankind is in Adam as one body of one man. (St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, l; CCC, 404)

The second man, like Adam, would have a free intellect and will and could choose to deny God. Therefore, if Adam chose to remain faithful to God’s law, it would not be possible for all humanity to receive Adam’s gift of immortality at the same time that all humanity was contracting the second man’s state of separation from God which results in the loss of immortality. If both men made the same choice, then Occam’s razor or parsimony would apply. The creation of Adam’s “clone” would not be necessary.
wow, thank You.
this leads somewhere.

God bless
 
Continued from post 887. Scripture reference is Genesis, chapter two.
  1. It is important to recognize that the Catholic Church holds that the Holy Spirit inspired the Genesis author in spite of the fact that he was not writing a science textbook. Therefore, it is understandable and acceptable that chapter two refers back to Genesis 1:27. According to the Holy Spirit (Who inspired the Genesis author), humanity is destined to share in God’s divine life not only like Adam did on planet earth, but also in heaven’s eternal joy. This tells us that Adam also belongs in the spiritual world in addition to existing in the material world in point 2 in post 887. In fact, the Genesis author separates the creation of man from the creation of all other living organisms from cattle to creeping things. The first created human is described as being in the image of God. Because we, as a real human, are in the image of God, it follows that Adam is a living person like us because he is in the image of God.
  2. Being in the image of God, having a spiritual soul, gives a real human person the ability to communicate with God. We call that prayer and listening to Jesus in the Gospels. In the Catholic Church, the summit of communication is the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. In chapter two, there is meaningful intellective rational communication between Adam and His Creator. While God is Creator of all, seen and unseen, it is His communication with Adan which signifies that Adam is a living person.
  3. One of the prominent characteristics of a human being is his intellective rational abilities. The tools of reason include but are not limited to observation, analysis, conceptual thought, self-reflection, logical evaluation, and creativity. The Genesis author does not describe Adam using these skills on his own which Adam certainly could have done. Rather, Adam exercises his mental capabilities in the presence of the Creator.
  4. “In the presence of the Creator” leads us to the Divine Revelation that Adam is the real first human. If material anatomies were all that is necessary in order for a living organism to have the tools of reason mentioned in point 8, then birds not only could fly, but could also figure out how to land on the moon. When examining all the species, including the newly discovered ones, we find only one species which has all the human characteristics. That species had to begin from a first human being, because the defining characteristic of a spiritual soul in the image of God does not evolve from material substances in the universe.
  5. Obviously, “In the presence of the Creator” means that we believe in a Divine Creator Who can interact with a first human being biblically known as Adam. Because of a real Original Sin, we believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and it is He Who established the Catholic Church. This means that we cannot avoid St. Paul’s comparisons between the real Jesus Christ and the real first human Adam. Romans 5: 12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22. Nor can we avoid Humani generis, #35 “If such conjectural opinions are directly or indirectly opposed to the doctrine revealed by God, then the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.” vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html
beautiful 🙂
 
Here is post 875.

Please pardon my boldness. I simply dismissed option 1). I did not choose to answer 2) directly because I was worried that I would slip into the banned topic. Post 874 is more an overview of the Catholic general approach to science issues.
Many pardons; I suspected afterwards that you couldn’t answer fully because of the ban. We will just leave it as that. I am surprised at that though - bans I mean!! To me it somewhat goes against “freedom of speech” and I am most surprised to find it on such a forum.

May I also add that according to my research, the Bible shows that man in the initial state was an animal/monkey-like creature of some kind when it entered God’s garden. Only after (Gen. 2:8) it entered the garden did this animal gain God’s image (which eventually caused it to change - Homo Sapiens).

I hope that you don’t get in trouble because **I ** said it.
 
Being in the state of Original Holiness (Sanctifying Grace), Adam gave himself to God – which is the greatest gift possible. Unfortunately, he yielded to the temptation of Satan.

Your description in post 894 is on target not only pre-Fall, but also in our lives post-Fall.
“… he had a friendship with his God, maybe a sort of peaceful living experience which we too can sometimes grasp in the midst of a crazy world.”

Original Sin did not destroy Adam’s human nature. Adam had shattered the relationship between humanity and Divinity. Yet, his wounded nature remained “in the image of God”. As long as he was alive on earth, Adam had the freedom to seek his Creator and freely share in His life. This is why, as you pointed out, we too can have peace in our crazy world.

Knowing what we know about the preciousness of human nature, we wonder how human sacrifice came to be. Because Adam’s descendants have the same freedom of choice, there is always the possibility of choosing between good and evil.

An additional thought –
Maybe, as we delve into the logic of Adam, not only will we find the truth of his existence, but our understanding of the human condition will become clearer. 😃

(Sources of information: CCC, 356-357; CCC, 396-400; CCC, 405-406;* CCC*, 401; CCC, 407; CCC,705; CCC, 1730-1732)
Adam had given himself to God…I wonder did he know he had given himself to God?
We say he knew Good from Evil and was of goodness, but would still have the freewill we have to choose. We know when we are trying our best to do the will of God through our actions and words, but before the fall the world would have been a very different place. Adam being in friendship with God maybe didn’t need to give himself to God because he was one in union with him already. Of course after the fall, he then needed to seek God again…

After the fall, just thinking on how humans were convinced that God wanted human sacrifice, like you said they had the freedom to choose, but they didn’t have the leadership? If the leaders thought this was how they could stop the God from being angry with them and the world, then the people would follow the leader. Not to say ALL people thought that their leader was right, some did not.
 
I wonder if this is true-that Adam could still have shared in God’s life after the Fall, and obviously before Jesus’ advent. Man had been banned from the Tree of Life-and had never actually eaten from it-and God, the giver of life, hadn’t yet shown up to do His work of Atonement. Thoughts on this?
Thought 🙂

We know that when Adam and Eve sinned they were afraid and felt shame. The shame they felt was so intense that they hid from God. When God is asking “where are you” in the garden, could this have been for many years, rather than as I read, pretty soon after the fall?
God looks for A&E for years rather than hours or days, spiritually speaking, but because of the shame, they felt they could no longer seek God.
God takes them out of the garden, as punishment? But not as an eternity, God is still around, but man now in the fallen state finds it difficult to seek God, because he prefers his own ways and doesn’t ask God for anything.
 
Adam had given himself to God…I wonder did he know he had given himself to God?
We say he knew Good from Evil and was of goodness, but would still have the freewill we have to choose. We know when we are trying our best to do the will of God through our actions and words, but before the fall the world would have been a very different place. Adam being in friendship with God maybe didn’t need to give himself to God because he was one in union with him already. Of course after the fall, he then needed to seek God again…

After the fall, just thinking on how humans were convinced that God wanted human sacrifice, like you said they had the freedom to choose, but they didn’t have the leadership? If the leaders thought this was how they could stop the God from being angry with them and the world, then the people would follow the leader. Not to say ALL people thought that their leader was right, some did not.
I think it could be said that once man gave up God as his leader, then any all forms and qualities of leadership were/are candiates for the job.
 
Adam had given himself to God…I wonder did he know he had given himself to God?
Good question – because it asks a logical question flowing from the existence of human nature – that of the first human parent.

Here are the sources for the answer.

Genesis 2: 7-8; Genesis 2: 16-17; Genesis 2: 19-20; Genesis 2: 22; Genesis 3: 7-10; Genesis 3:15

Key concepts are “relationship” “comparison” and “status” as explained in CCC, 355-357; CCC; 1730;
CCC, 364; CCC, 374; CCC, 378-379; CCC, 396-398; CCC, 416-417; CCC, 410-411; CCC, 390

Logical tool is the Deductive Method of arriving at truth.
 
Thought 🙂

We know that when Adam and Eve sinned they were afraid and felt shame. The shame they felt was so intense that they hid from God. When God is asking “where are you” in the garden, could this have been for many years, rather than as I read, pretty soon after the fall?
God looks for A&E for years rather than hours or days, spiritually speaking, but because of the shame, they felt they could no longer seek God.
God takes them out of the garden, as punishment? But not as an eternity, God is still around, but man now in the fallen state finds it difficult to seek God, because he prefers his own ways and doesn’t ask God for anything.
Yes, I think we’re here to learn how and why to stop preferring our own ways over His. 🙂
 
It appears that Adam and Eve, if they truly felt shame after their first sin, were smarter than Lucifer, who felt no shame whatever and who seems to have been willing to take on Michael and God’s army to the last angel. Perhaps that is why Satan’s banishment to hell was irreversible. He had no shame, no remorse, and exulted in the prospect of ruling in hell rather than serving in heaven. Adam and Eve at least got a reprieve, as we all get reprieves and second chances … at least until we prove ourselves as incorrigible as Satan.
 
It appears that Adam and Eve, if they truly felt shame after their first sin, were smarter than Lucifer, who felt no shame whatever and who seems to have been willing to take on Michael and God’s army to the last angel. Perhaps that is why Satan’s banishment to hell was irreversible. He had no shame, no remorse, and exulted in the prospect of ruling in hell rather than serving in heaven. Adam and Eve at least got a reprieve, as we all get reprieves and second chances … at least until we prove ourselves as incorrigible as Satan.
Yes, that’s why Satan is called the father of lies (John 8:44) because lies and murder originated with him.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
I think it could be said that once man gave up God as his leader, then any all forms and qualities of leadership were/are candiates for the job.
We say that Adam “gave up” God by giving into the temption. Adam then has a fear of God and thinks God is angry with him.
After having a good relationship with God prior to the fall, Adam could have known that God wasn’t all that angry, if he once had a good relationship why didn’t he teach his family that killing was wrong for example. No where in the bible do we hear how Adam tried to teach his decendands about God and the relationship he once had.
We hear about Cain and Abel. But its God that speaks to Cain about what he did, and so he had a sort of relationship with God. So they would have known God had not abandoned them.
I don’t think there is much human sacrifice in the old testment, but we know of such from other cultures.
Adam and Eve are the first sole parents of ALL human’s, then cain, Abel etc, how then did human’s start to think they needed to sacrifice each other for God, is what I’m thinking about now.
🙂
 
Good question – because it asks a logical question flowing from the existence of human nature – that of the first human parent.

Here are the sources for the answer.

Genesis 2: 7-8; Genesis 2: 16-17; Genesis 2: 19-20; Genesis 2: 22; Genesis 3: 7-10; Genesis 3:15

Key concepts are “relationship” “comparison” and “status” as explained in CCC, 355-357; CCC; 1730;
CCC, 364; CCC, 374; CCC, 378-379; CCC, 396-398; CCC, 416-417; CCC, 410-411; CCC, 390

Logical tool is the Deductive Method of arriving at truth.
Thanks for the list of source’s. I’ve gone through them all. 🙂
 
We say that Adam “gave up” God by giving into the temption. Adam then has a fear of God and thinks God is angry with him.
After having a good relationship with God prior to the fall, Adam could have known that God wasn’t all that angry, if he once had a good relationship why didn’t he teach his family that killing was wrong for example. No where in the bible do we hear how Adam tried to teach his decendands about God and the relationship he once had.
We hear about Cain and Abel. But its God that speaks to Cain about what he did, and so he had a sort of relationship with God. So they would have known God had not abandoned them.
I don’t think there is much human sacrifice in the old testment, but we know of such from other cultures.
Adam and Eve are the first sole parents of ALL human’s, then cain, Abel etc, how then did human’s start to think they needed to sacrifice each other for God, is what I’m thinking about now.
🙂
Adam didn’t* know* evil prior to the fall-he only knew God’s command against it, against the granddaddy of all evils: disobedience of God. After that Adam would immediately know the first evil: separation from God, and then go on to experience all the other evils and darkness/ignorance that necessarily flow from that separation. Having been banned from the Tree of Life perhaps means that Adam wasn’t yet even* capable* of turning back to God, that his heart was still set on his own way after the Fall despite his deprived position. In any case this separation, this “ex-communion” with time spent in a much less graceful condition, causing some to stoop to even extreme baseness, is quite possibly a necessary first step in our learning of the need of “re-communion”.

I’m not sure just how well Adam really knew God; perhaps that was a major part of the problem; the “good relationship” may’ve been largely one-sided. It was mentioned a few posts back that, as a result of Adam’s original state of justice/holiness, he “gave himself to God”. But I don’t know about that: his state may’ve demanded this giving but his *will *certainly ended up opposing it-seems to me he never fully did give himself to God and his loss of sanctifying grace is the simple consequence of that when he broke communion altogether.
 
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