Adam & Logic

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As we are all aware, the earth appears flat because it is so large. Appearance, illusion and reality, very difficult concepts, given our emersion in it all.

It may sound ignorant, but actually the earth is at the centre of the universe, as is everything else according to science today.

Having a rational, spiritual soul, we basically cognitively structure the universe around ourselves as frames of reference. In physics, I understand that everything is relative; it is relative because we must insert our understanding into creation and see events centred around a particular point of view/scale of measurement. Physics is not my area of expertise, so I can’t speak much about it. I know more about the struggles of the faceless hero confronting life and its challenges.

But, if I may venture further into the enigma of our being both physical and spiritual being: consider us sitting in front of our monitors. It is far easier to describe than the obvious mystery and complexity of gazing into the beloved’s eyes.

So here we are at the monitor. We and it exist within a continuous physical reality. It includes events such as the release of photons from the screen, travelling through space to the retinal where chemical reactions ensue, followed by a cascade of events that include the travelling of action potentials down axons, releasing neurochemicals across synapses where dentrites meet. These “messages” travel through the midbrain to the occipital cortex and across areas of the brain involved in “decoding” the “information” (Again, all that is happening according to the model of neural physiology, are complex biochemical changes - no “mesages”, no “information” - just chemicals) so that we are able to understand what is on the page. All this, is what is happening physically speaking: no me, you, monitor, just physical events within this structure.

Because this is happening we are able to communicate. I have an understanding and these words will have some meaning for you.

We are now in the realm of mind.

Notice that this is real; this is happening. There is a reality to the experience that is a whole. Although we are sitting in the midst of infinite number of events within the totality of the universe, this experience is closed. It is happening as a finite now and not within the eternal Now that encompasses all time (that is God’s mind). So you and I are one with our monitors in a finite sense as we are one with all creation. All this is where mind meets spirit. In this moment we exist as eternal beings. As eternal beings, acting with free will, we participate in God to create ourselves as part of His infinite creative moment. This doesn’t do justice to what is the spiritual world, since its nature is love and compassion. This spritual world, believe or not, contains a universe of beings that exist between this world and God, a world of angels and demons. I do recognize that this sounds crazy so I do not say such things except to a few people who understand what I am talking about and under the anonimity afforded by the forums.

Only those who are members of God’s church will be in heaven, beginning with Peter, the Catholic Church was given the responsibility of bringing all those people together to that end.
This is far too long-winded than I like and still seems to explain nothing.
Couldn’t wait to read you whole post…stopped at the earth is the center of the universe…er…NO…and I understand the expanding universe …but the earth REVOLVES around the SUN and we are not getting further away … just closer…til one day…and the sun revolves around OUR Milky Wat Galaxy and being drawn closer to it’s core… and some galaxy revolve around each other as to other stars,so,no the earth is not the center of everything…
 
Couldn’t wait to read you whole post…stopped at the earth is the center of the universe…er…NO…and I understand the expanding universe …but the earth REVOLVES around the SUN and we are not getting further away … just closer…til one day…and the sun revolves around OUR Milky Way Galaxy and being drawn closer to it’s core… and some galaxy revolve around each other as do other stars,so,no the earth is not the center of everything…[no matter what fancy words you choose /QUOTE]and that is the problem…the self ego…which by the way is wonderfully displayed …God is the Center any arguments about that? …even if Gods is OUTSIDE,Transcendent, HE IS ,and that is the name of that tune.

WOW now that I read it all…I dont know why…sorry we just are in two separate mindsets on different earths , both the center of the universe…lol
Have a good day

PS it is a shame to waste big words
 
Couldn’t wait to read you whole post…stopped at the earth is the center of the universe…er…NO…and I understand the expanding universe …but the earth REVOLVES around the SUN and we are not getting further away … just closer…til one day…and the sun revolves around OUR Milky Wat Galaxy and being drawn closer to it’s core… and some galaxy revolve around each other as to other stars,so,no the earth is not the center of everything…
physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=162467
exploratorium.edu/hubble/tools/center.html
Google centre of the universe
 
FYI

There are significant differences between the natural science hypotheses from the middle of the 20th century and those popular in this century. It is my understanding that these differences, which intersect with foundational Catholic doctrines, cannot be discussed because of the public policy position at the top of this Forum. Emphasis in bold is mine.

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/multipage.gif 12)
Jo Benedict
Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads
For the foreseeable future, there shall be no discussion in the Philosophy Forum of evolution or atheism. Anyone who starts such a thread or revives an old thread on those topics will be banned. This ban is planned to be temporary, but there are to be no public or private petitions that the ban be lifted. It will be lifted only when the mod (yours truly) discerns that the atmosphere in this forum has sufficiently cooled.
Since it is not my intention to violate this discussion ban, I am now leaving this thread.

Thank you, all, for your thoughtful responses.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
FYI

There are significant differences between the natural science hypotheses from the middle of the 20th century and those popular in this century. It is my understanding that these differences, which intersect with foundational Catholic doctrines, cannot be discussed because of the public policy position at the top of this Forum. Emphasis in bold is mine.

Sticky: Temporary Ban on Evolution/Atheism Threads ( 12)
Jo Benedict

Since it is not my intention to violate this discussion ban, I am now leaving this thread.

Thank you, all, for your thoughtful responses.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
WOW a ban in a Roman Catholic forum… on a deeply rooted religious issue…how…1950’ Is communism really back?
Seriously… there is a ban ??? I am fairly new here,so with apologies I ask…who makes these rules? I am shocked …really.
 
Post 1 of this thread
In my humble opinion, it is logical, given the human nature that you and I possess, that Adam existed as explained by the Catholic Church.
Source:* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*.

Because the Catholic Church holds that a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions (simplified description) does in fact exist–the presupposition for this thread is God as Creator exists.
Returning to the philosophical approach to the single creation of Adam, personally, I think that it is Adam’s will which necessitates that there be a* first* true human.

So far, I know that the human will seeks goodness, which is God, the ultimate good. In its section on Original Sin, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 396-409, says that Adam “chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398). The reasoning is " God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God." (CCC 396) No matter how one looks at the above, Adam had to make his own, free choice between seeking shared life with God and seeking the priority or dominance of his own life.

The Catechism offers St. Thomas Aquinas,* DeMalo *4,1. as footnote 293 for the beginning of CCC 404. “How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.”

What I would like to know is
1.Did St. Thomas address the will and its freedom in DeMalo? How?
2. What did St. Thomas teach about the will and was it ascribed particularly to Adam as the first human.

Here is where I want to make a leap in logic, but will probably fall on my arse. I am prepared to hear you declare that some of my ideas are codswallop while you are rolling on the floor laughing.😃

When I start with Satan’s offer to make Adam like an all-knowing God – what other knowledge is there besides good and evil–I wonder if this omniscience was viewed by the Genesis writer as a possibility for making Adam equal to God. After all, Adam was living the good life in the Garden of Eden so the temptation had to be major and also had to be seen as something good. Even today, knowledge is considered at the top of worthwhile goals.

CCC 298 refers to Adam’s sin. “In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned Him.” Original Sin shattered humanity’s relationship with divinity.

At this point, I would like to learn more about St. Thomas’ words “as one body of one man.” (See CCC 404 quoted above and reference to DeMalo 4, 1.)

“One man” is very important. Logically, given the scenario below, there could only be one man and his spouse as founders of the human species.

Think what would happen if Adam were the representative figure of a group of human first parents with each person having free will since they would possess human nature. Some, of course, would freely follow Adam’s choice and their wounded nature, which would be transmitted to their descendants, would be in a state deprived of original holiness and justice. (CCC 399-400). Others would freely live in submission to God; therefore, their descendants would be born in the state of original holiness and justice. (CCC 374-379)
???
 
Knowledge transforms us. It is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to mankind.
There must have been some knowledge of good and evil present in the original man, or Eve would not have understood the serpent.
Angels are messengers. Satan having turned from God, acts in the opposite manner to angels coming from God; he speaks to us in ways that would turn us from God.
He suggested that eating the fruit would bring greater knowledge, inferring that God was keeping it from them, not wishing that they be like Him. This could have been a future gift; but we forced the issue, not trusting, pridefully, and in disobedience to God’s clearly stated will.
The outcome was not knowledge, but ignorance. Just as the Holy Spirit gives us wisdom and understanding, Adam’s decision had the effect of renouncing these gifts, thereby leaving us imperfect.
We are redeemed through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I believe that when the angels themselves chose, the consequence was either hell or the beatific vision; there was no awareness of this before their decision (whatever before means within the reality of eternity). I believe we would have participated in that vision, had we decided differently. With regards to St. Thomas Aquinas, whose works I have not studied sufficiently, I understand that he described that each angel is a species in itselves, so perhaps just as they individually chose for themselves, our original parents decided for the entire species of man, since until Jesus, they were the perfection of humankind.
 
1.Did St. Thomas address the will and its freedom in DeMalo? How?
2. What did St. Thomas teach about the will and was it ascribed particularly to Adam as the first human.
Hi Grannymh;

Here’s my first crack at your question about Thomas…

Thank you for reigniting the very interesting post! I have a few thoughts on the passage from De Malo. In question 4 of DM, Thomas is asking whether, and in what way, sin can be said to be transmitted from one person to another—i.e., from Adam to the whole human race. The quote from the CCC is taken from article 1 of the question. Here, Thomas makes a very interesting claim which he repeats throughout many of his works, especially for example in his Commentaries on the Pauline Epistles. What he says is that the human person can be considered in two ways: first, as an individual per se (hence his definition of the person as being “an individual substance of a rational nature”) and in a secondary way as a member of a community. It is not possible to understand the human person without understanding the human being as being oriented towards other in community. In fact, St Thomas’ whole virtue theory (keep in mind here that the possession and practice of virtue involves the perfection of human nature) is that virtues orient us towards others and that individual perfection comes about through the perfection of the proper interaction of the individual with the community. There is no virtue in other words without other people: the human person is thus only truly perfected in the context of a community: the person is essential community-oriented. Thus, the community itself is manifest “as one body of one man”. Thomas is fond of quoting Genesis 1:28, which is God’s very first words to the human creature: “be fruitful and multiply”. The human person is, from the very moment of creation, oriented towards others, to the community.

While I was reflecting on this, I was reminded of the “inward turn to the subject” brought about by the Enlightenment philosophers. The whole loss of confidence in the truth which we find in modernity, and the loss of confidence in Revelation (which comes to us through the community) and in Religious authority is rooted in the shift from understanding the human person and human freedom as being oriented towards Another, and instead becomes oriented inwardly to the Cartesian subject, closed off from the world. The modern mind set considers human freedom as being an expression of the self, independently of others, and in fact freedom is often conceived of as only being realised in opposition to others. This is in fact quite a radical departure from the Christian understanding of the human person which prevailed prior to the Enlightenment. What we find in Thomas is an understanding of the human person only fully realised in reference to others, and freedom as being only fully alive in cooperation with others and oriented towards the perfection of the community. Hence, Thomas sees original sin as being in one sense a violation and disintegration of the community of humanity, exemplified in the disorientation of society as a whole.

I’ll keep brewing this one…
 
In post 104, Aloysium begins with the observation that knowledge transforms us.
“Knowledge transforms us. It is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to mankind.
There must have been some knowledge of good and evil present in the original man, or Eve would not have understood the serpent.”

A friend reasons that however our material/physical anatomy came about, God’s infusion of the spiritual soul transformed the being into a radically superior natural species, our own human species.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 365 scborromeo.org/ccc/para/365.htm
**“365 **The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.”

Link to Catechism scborromeo.org/ccc.htm. While perusing this link, check out paragraphs 355-421. Comments are welcomed on this thread.🙂

Replying to my questions about CCC 404, (post 103) which has this informative statement,** …**
**"**How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice."
… hicetnunc, in post 105, writes about the reference to “as one body of one man”.
“I have a few thoughts on the passage from De Malo. In question 4 of DM, Thomas is asking whether, and in what way, sin can be said to be transmitted from one person to another—i.e., from Adam to the whole human race. The quote from the CCC is taken from article 1 of the question. Here, Thomas makes a very interesting claim which he repeats throughout many of his works, especially for example in his Commentaries on the Pauline Epistles. What he says is that the human person can be considered in two ways: first, as an individual per se (hence his definition of the person as being “an individual substance of a rational nature”) and in a secondary way as a member of a community. It is not possible to understand the human person without understanding the human being as being oriented towards other in community.”
The first thing I spotted in hicetnunc’s post was St. Thomas Aquinas’ definition of the person as being “an individual substance of a rational nature".

Looking at this post as I write it, there is a consensus that the human person can think (which is a faculty or ability of the spiritual soul) in a manner beyond the sentience or consciousness of other species. :doh2:

I do recognize that current published research on the human being often implies that our ability to think rationally comes from our blood and guts, especially the lump in our scull. Technically, this is known as the “emergence from the physical anatomy” theory or an epiphenomenon of matter. But is that really a rational conclusion when one observes nature without prejudice?

Of all the wonderful species that share our natural environment, we, the walking-on-two-legs people are the only ones who use our rational (because we have a spiritual soul) minds in a superior productive manner. Birds fly. We sit in airplanes. Birds sing. We design and build opera houses. Birds sing in a set pattern of sounds. We sing…

Our friend, St. Thomas, an observer of nature par excellence, a quintessential seeker of truth, observed, in the above from post 105, that while we are individuals, we are also necessarily a member in community.
Did I get that right, hicetnunc?

Could it be that St. Thomas was observing the origin of the “unity of the human race” mentioned in the above sample from CCC 404?
 
Our friend, St. Thomas, an observer of nature par excellence, a quintessential seeker of truth, observed, in the above from post 105, that while we are individuals, we are also necessarily a member in community.
Did I get that right, hicetnunc?
Yes, I think that is right Granny. This also forms the basis of his whole sacramental theology, which likewise brings us into perfection in the Community of God.
Could it be that St. Thomas was observing the origin of the “unity of the human race” mentioned in the above sample from CCC 404?
Yes, another great observation Granny.

In his Compendium of Theology (q29) St Thomas notes that the original unity of mankind was found in its friendship with God (which friendship is also mediated through our friendship with one another). In fact, in several places in the Summa Theologica (for example II-II, q.106) he remarks that the whole point of the virtuous life is for the perfection of friendship, and virtue is the reason for which we are loved (love being the “form” of all the virtues). The reparation for original sin worked by Christ is in order to restore the human race to this original unity in friendship, which of course, is the foundation of the perfect or true community. In other words, Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to restore us to friendship with God and one another.
 
In his Compendium of Theology (q29) St Thomas notes that the original unity of mankind was found in its friendship with God (which friendship is also mediated through our friendship with one another). In fact, in several places in the Summa Theologica (for example II-II, q.106) he remarks that the whole point of the virtuous life is for the perfection of friendship, and virtue is the reason for which we are loved (love being the “form” of all the virtues). The reparation for original sin worked by Christ is in order to restore the human race to this original unity in friendship, which of course, is the foundation of the perfect or true community. In other words, Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to restore us to friendship with God and one another.
I have some unconnected thoughts.

To me, it doesn’t really matter if the writer(s) of the first three chapters of Genesis were not scientists. They were basically philosophers who could go from the natural, material world to the supernatural, spiritual world. (At least that is what appears to me.) As philosophers, they used the deductive method of reasoning starting with axioms which were objective truths. Genesis 1: 1 is the first axiom.

Skipping to your comment about our friend St. Thomas–that he often referred to Genesis 1: 28. "God blessed them saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it…” as indicating a true community with God. I am beginning to understand the idea of community because I go from God’s blessing, which would be true since it follows from the axiom that God exists, straight to
Genesis 2: 18-23. While I love Eve, I think that the most valuable information is verse 23, “the man said: ‘This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;’…” I see this as a strong affirmation that Eve had the same nature as Adam. Scientifically, they were the same species. Obviously, their children would be born with their parents’ nature which was in the image of God, Genesis 1: 26-27.

A supporting verse of the single uniqueness of human nature is Genesis 2: 20. “The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.” Of course not. Adam’s nature was an unique unification of both the material world and the spiritual world. Only one with the same nature could be his lifelong spouse. All others, including ancient beings which were similar in their decomposing anatomy, were excluded from the marriage bond.

I would think that logically, given the above, true human beings would have had to directly descend from Adam and Eve.

As thinking philosophers, the writer(s) writing about human origin would have had access to all kinds of stories about creation. Yet, it seems to me, their description of God and His first two human creatures is the most logical, especially since we can observe human nature in community beginning with the family which is in relationship with God Who is necessary. It is only God Who directly creates the spiritual soul at conception. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body. It is the union of spirit and matter which forms the single nature of our self.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-366)
 
In his Compendium of Theology (q29) St Thomas notes that the original unity of mankind was found in its friendship with God (which friendship is also mediated through our friendship with one another). In fact, in several places in the Summa Theologica (for example II-II, q.106) he remarks that the whole point of the virtuous life is for the perfection of friendship, and virtue is the reason for which we are loved (love being the “form” of all the virtues). The reparation for original sin worked by Christ is in order to restore the human race to this original unity in friendship, which of course, is the foundation of the perfect or true community. In other words, Christ’s sacrifice is a sacrifice to restore us to friendship with God and one another.
Middle of the night thoughts about the word “community” in the above sentence and in other places. From post 107: “The reparation for original sin worked by Christ is in order to restore the human race to this original unity in friendship, which of course, is the foundation of the perfect or true community.”

When I picture descendants of Adam in my mind, I picture it vertically. But when I think of a community, I picture it horizontally. Now, I am wondering about these sentences from Humani Generis 37.
“When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.”
When I think of polygenesis in its dictionary meaning – development* from* more than one source–it is vertical in my mind. But when I think of Adam and Eve as the beginners of a family, which is the original small community, I think of them horizontally like Adam’s description of Eve as being bone of his bone. Yes, I realize that Eve could be thought vertically since she is the second human. Still, there are CCC paragraphs 369-373.

When I look at polygenism, which is basically a population of random breeding pairs, I can see it horizontally in that whatever complementary anatomy is the closest becomes the physical, biological co-progenitor of…? However, humans are distinct from all other species. Random breeding may produce different species, but humankind is one, totally separate species because it is rational. The human species being rational is deftly described by those non-scientific writers as being an unique species in the image of God. (Genesis 1: 26-28) Unique in biological terms because this species started as one fully-complete human being and developed horizontally in a relationship with the Creator and in relationship with Eve who has the same fully-complete, both decomposing anatomy and eternal spiritual soul, unique nature.

In short, monogenism is logically necessary to maintain this uniqueness.😃

Hicetnunc. I can hear you saying: “granny, put your brain in a horizontal position and get some more sleep!”
 
I was initially irked at the suggestion that the authors of Genesis were philosophers, but it got me thinking.

The natural universe is the physical testimony of God’s glory. Through our human nature, our senses and cognitive faculties, we can enter into a relationship with it, and thereby the human reality of oneslf-in-the-world comes into being: this very experience we are having. By means of our reason and what we have learned we develop ideas, models, representations of creation, allowing us to know all this to greater depths and to manipulate it for our use. Whether it is through mathematical formulations, flow charts, geometric models, or whatever, we come to understand the patterns that are the workings of this miraculous dust.

Just as concepts emerge through our interactions as part of the material, they do likewise in the relationship with the world of the spirit.

This world of the divine is greater in its beauty, power and significance, than the physical universe is in its size (from the subatomic to the macrocosm of “infinite” space). How many galaxies would it take if one could compare their grandness with that of St. Paul or St. Stephen and the complexity of their relationship? Is there any light so bright in the universe as that which eminates from their existence through time, affecting all mankind, bringing us to God.? Is there a supernova that could match the sight of Satan, like lightening, falling from heaven? All the black holes that are, have been and will be could be no greater horror then hell.

The world of the spirit is revealed to mankind and shared among us. While our spirit may understand, the communication within and between ourselves, because we are physical/mental beings, has to take on the shape of words, visual representations and/or joyous noise. Before we can formulate precise ideas, which are usually dried out shells of the original revelation, we grasp symbols. All the world’s religions have symbols, stories, ideas to represent and connect to the divine.

The ancients did not think out Genesis; it was revealed to them. Although no different from ourselves, they would not have understood it as we do today. Pretty much having daily contact with birth and death, the creation of Adam and then Eve would have been far more miraculous than it would appear in today’s culture of CGI movies and biochemical experimentation. They knew it to be true. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the story was passed on, remaining true in its fundemental message about God, creation and man.

It seems to me that the mind follows the heart. It was not an idea that brought me back to Catholicism. It was a simple question: What is a soul?. In the face of the reality of the soul asking me, all my thoughts, all my words revealed themselves to be shadows disappearing in its light.
 
I am old enough to have raced across St. Louis, in a taxi, and literally yell, “Stop the presses!” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_press That is what one did in the days before the internet and smart phones. My situation did not involve the city newspaper. It was the color of a public relations brochure which needed changing. :eek: I also learned that a good proof reader looks for the missing information which is a tad different from spell check.

So… what is it that we are missing? What is the needed linchpin for the first three chapters of Genesis and published natural science research. A friend, off CAF, commented that philosophy could demonstrate the existence of God, but he wasn’t sure if philosophy could demonstrate monogenism. As one who could survive wild taxi rides, I say – Of course, our friend St. Thomas will provide the linchpin. :eek:
 
So… what is it that we are missing? What is the needed linchpin for the first three chapters of Genesis and published natural science research. A friend, off CAF, commented that philosophy could demonstrate the existence of God, but he wasn’t sure if philosophy could demonstrate monogenism. As one who could survive wild taxi rides, I say – Of course, our friend St. Thomas will provide the linchpin. :eek:
HI Grannymh;

Thanks for those thoughts!

I am not convinced that philosophy cannot demonstrate monogenism. It may not be able to do so from the point of view of efficient causation (which is where most people come at it) but rather from the point of view of final causation.

In the Summa, St Thomas considers the origin of the first human pair from the point of view of production (or efficient/instrumental causation) in ST Ia.q.90 and 91. But then he goes on to consider the origin of the first human pair from the point of view of final causation (q.93). Nowhere in q.90-91 (which deal with the origin of the human soul and human body) does he treat of the question of unity of the human race or person. It is not until he considers the creation of man from the point of view of the final cause that he considers the original unity of the human person.

There is nothing explicit in this treatise on the distinction between monogenism and polygenism as we understand this debate today; but St Thomas takes for granted that monogenism is the correct view, because you cannot derive the unity of the species considered from the point of view of diverse efficient causes.

The unity of the human race considered from the point of view of the final cause requires a corresponding unity of efficient causality. When we consider the unity of the human race, we have to consider what St Thomas would call either a perfective or dispositive efficient cause at the root. The perfective efficient cause induces the substantial form of a thing, while a dispositive efficient cause prepares matter for that final form.

I think it is harder, if not impossible, to explain the unity of the human race considered from the point of view of finality from a polygenistic starting point. Mongenism is a better candidate…at least it is easier to explain the unity of the race from this point of view.

I will give it some more thought grannymh, although I am off to sunny climes on holiday this week, and won’t be back until the end of Augiust. I’ll keep my notebook handy just in case I also have a “stop the press” moment of my own!
 
I was initially irked at the suggestion that the authors of Genesis were philosophers, but it got me thinking.
and this
HI Grannymh;

Thanks for those thoughts!

I am not convinced that philosophy cannot demonstrate monogenism. It may not be able to do so from the point of view of efficient causation (which is where most people come at it) but rather from the point of view of final causation.
*and this *from a post in another thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10975282&postcount=14
Aloysium said:
Thank you so much for your post.
One thinks one has wrung all the meaning and truth out of Genesis, and something else pops up. I had not made the connection between what Adam and Eve saw as good in the fruit and the reality of concupiscence.
All that this often cranky (feminine of snarky) granny has been doing is to follow my Irish Mother’s advice. “There is more than one way to skin a cat.” or “If at first you don’t succeed, try second base.”

What I am hearing from these good people, and others, is that there are times when we simply have to stop and ask ourselves is there another way to look at the reality of Adam. Currently, we live in a high tech/scientific environment which, in many ways, has benefited society. Thank you, God. However, we have to do a reality check and conclude that the environment of the first Genesis writers was not the same as today’s.

We agree with the mantra of “The first three chapters of Genesis is not a science text book.” and then we agree with the idea that the first three chapters of Genesis contains various truths in figurative or symbolic language so that today, the wording of these truths can be updated to agree with specific research papers. (Guess what – that is the heresy of Modernism.)

There is no reason to stop with the declaration that Adam and Eve are not scientific. We need to ask how was the nature of Adam and Eve described in pre-scientific language. Please remember that whatever descriptive language, scientific, philosophical, creative, etc., is used, it cannot change the objective reality of Adam and Original Sin.

Yet, how do we learn the “language” of those intelligent, not necessarily scientific, writers? “We walk a mile in their moccasins.” saying from my childhood neighborhood.
 
HI Grannymh;

Thanks for those thoughts!

I am not convinced that philosophy cannot demonstrate monogenism. It may not be able to do so from the point of view of efficient causation (which is where most people come at it) but rather from the point of view of final causation.

In the Summa, St Thomas considers the origin of the first human pair from the point of view of production (or efficient/instrumental causation) in ST Ia.q.90 and 91. But then he goes on to consider the origin of the first human pair from the point of view of final causation (q.93). Nowhere in q.90-91 (which deal with the origin of the human soul and human body) does he treat of the question of unity of the human race or person. It is not until he considers the creation of man from the point of view of the final cause that he considers the original unity of the human person.

There is nothing explicit in this treatise on the distinction between monogenism and polygenism as we understand this debate today; but St Thomas takes for granted that monogenism is the correct view, because you cannot derive the unity of the species considered from the point of view of diverse efficient causes.

The unity of the human race considered from the point of view of the final cause requires a corresponding unity of efficient causality. When we consider the unity of the human race, we have to consider what St Thomas would call either a perfective or dispositive efficient cause at the root. The perfective efficient cause induces the substantial form of a thing, while a dispositive efficient cause prepares matter for that final form.

I think it is harder, if not impossible, to explain the unity of the human race considered from the point of view of finality from a polygenistic starting point. Mongenism is a better candidate…at least it is easier to explain the unity of the race from this point of view.

I will give it some more thought grannymh, although I am off to sunny climes on holiday this week, and won’t be back until the end of Augiust. I’ll keep my notebook handy just in case I also have a “stop the press” moment of my own!
May you have many “stop the press” moments.

Some years ago, it was recommended that I read the book *Aquinas on Creation, Writings on the “Sentences” of Peter Lombard, Book 2, Distinction 1, Question 1 – *translated with an introduction and notes by Steven E. Baldner & William E. Carroll. ISBN: 0-88844-285-8. I am still in the Introduction of which there is 62 pages.

My excuse is that I represented my high school in a speech tournament. My topic was St. Thomas Aquinas “The Dumb Ox”. The only problem was that my teacher had given me the wrong time limit for speaking. My speech was crucially short and though I tried to slow it down on the spot; I lost. That is why I now find every bit of information about the person of St. Thomas to be fascinating.

My impression of the book’s Introduction is that St. Thomas worked hard to find the reasoning/reasons for basic Divine Revelation. The Introduction’s last paragraph begins with this sentence. “The immense achievement of Aquinas is to have explained so much of the Christian teaching on creation in philosophical terms.” and ends with “True philosophical knowledge is never rejected by theology, but only perfected and brought to completion.”

On the other hand, while I truly love natural science–I will not relate what I did in High School biology lab-it has to be recognized that natural science research is properly limited to the material/physical environment. It is also limited to observable evidence; however, assumptions and estimates are part of the methods in science research which seeks information going thousands of years backwards. The nitty-gritty is that one needs to be realistic about assumptions. Recall the famous Black Swan in Australia.
svswans.com/black.html The point is that an universal conclusion cannot be proven with objective certitude. In any case, an interpretation has to be warranted by the actual evidence.

In a round-about-way, my point is that although Thomist philosophy requires effort, it can deal with important life issues which transcend the blood and guts of science. Philosophy seeks knowledge about the human individual and the Creator. It is our relationship with our Creator which is directly tied to Adam. Romans 5: 12-21.
 
In order to grasp the full meaning of Adam, we need to walk a mile in the moccasins of the writers of the first three chapters of Genesis. This means setting aside the popular inclination to look at these men from the media’s interpretations that not only includes 21st century science, but also the teachings of people like Fr. Michael D. Guinan O.F.M.

A pit stop for St. Thomas will be allowed because he has the basic philosophical definition of the individual person per se: “an individual substance of a rational nature”.
(post 105 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10944350&postcount=105 )

Rational includes the tools of reason, self-reflection, logical evaluation, abstract concepts, and analytical thought. Personally, I like to add a creative imagination and the ability to build on the knowledge gained by previous generations. Humans did not stop with the invention of the wheel.

The Genesis writer was totally aware that human nature per se had the capability to reason from the material environment to the spiritual world of a true God. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 28.
**“28 **In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:”
Refer to Acts 17; 16-34.

Genesis 1:1 is testimony of the fact that humans, especially the Genesis writer, have the reasoning capability of seeking God.
Logically, considering the chasm between Creator and creature, the only way humans could even imagine a spiritual world is that the Creator gave humans a kind of avenue to the spiritual. Genesis 1: 26-28.

Note: to understand the use of smaller print in CCC 28, please read CCC 20-21.
 
Logically, from a materialistic position, there is no break in the continuity of transmitted human nature. Once there were two fully-complete human parents, the natural law of progeny insured the continuance of human nature.

Because philosophical reasoning is a both - and approach to the meaning of life in that one explores both the material and spiritual aspects, we find compatibility between ourselves and the writer of the first three chapters of Genesis. Once we realize that intense curiosity is a natural property of humans, it becomes easy for us to “walk a mile in the moccasins of the Genesis writer”.

The same pressure to know everything about everything which exists today was also present in the time of the Genesis writer. Curiosity needed to be satisfied. We can technically blame Adam for our insatiable curiosity. When we read between the Genesis lines of description, we find Adam exploring the nature of living creatures, including his own nature, and questioning the importance of obedience in his relationship with his Maker.

In my humble observation, the Genesis writer, like ourselves, used basic reasoning (logic) principles to discern the teachings available at the time. The question is why choose a single couple as progenitors of all humankind. The basic answer is that the writer knew about monogenism because, like the oneness of the Creator, he was taught that by those who were taught that by those who…

While many children of Adam and Eve, like today’s children, preferred to go off on their own and do their own thing, there were other children who passed on the truth from Adam’s mouth. Our 20-20 hindsight tells us that the Bible is God revealing Himself over time. So, of course, God inspired the Genesis writer. The nitty-gritty is that those first three chapters of Genesis recorded a common inherited knowledge deeply rooted in human tradition from the time of Eden itself.

Because, as stated in the first sentence, logically, from a materialistic position, there is no break in the continuity of transmitted human nature, it is important to learn what the Genesis writer knew to be true.
 
I was initially irked at the suggestion that the authors of Genesis were philosophers, but it got me thinking.

The natural universe is the physical testimony of God’s glory. Through our human nature, our senses and cognitive faculties, we can enter into a relationship with it, and thereby the human reality of oneslf-in-the-world comes into being: this very experience we are having. By means of our reason and what we have learned we develop ideas, models, representations of creation, allowing us to know all this to greater depths and to manipulate it for our use. Whether it is through mathematical formulations, flow charts, geometric models, or whatever, we come to understand the patterns that are the workings of this miraculous dust.

snip

The ancients did not think out Genesis; it was revealed to them. Although no different from ourselves, they would not have understood it as we do today. Pretty much having daily contact with birth and death, the creation of Adam and then Eve would have been far more miraculous than it would appear in today’s culture of CGI movies and biochemical experimentation. They knew it to be true. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the story was passed on, remaining true in its fundemental message about God, creation and man.
All of post 110 (above quoted in part) needs to be read a second time, a third time, a fourth…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10965668&postcount=110

This post follows this last sentence in post 116. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10990498&postcount=116
“Because, as stated in the first sentence, post 116, logically, from a materialistic position, there is no break in the continuity of transmitted human nature, it is important to learn what the Genesis writer knew to be true.”
To find out how the ancient Genesis writer learned about truth in nature, I am taking the liberty of combining and adding to the sentences from post 110. This is my personal suggested thought pattern.

The ancients did not think out Genesis; it was revealed to them. Although no different from ourselves, they would not have understood it as we do today. Today, in our fast paced scientific world, going from the “Model T” to walking on the moon, we have to constantly remind ourselves that our natural environment(s) is essentially the same as what the writer of the first three chapters of Genesis observed. In today’s language, we can consider that the workings of our human genome in total (synergy) are historically unique to our species in spite of the fact that we share similar genes with other primates or vertebrates or mammals. Our legs, due to our genetics, do not fly and our lungs, due to our genetics, still need oxygen.

What makes our species unique is St. Thomas’s definition that each of us is an “individual substance of a rational nature” from post 105.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10944350&postcount=105

Aloysium comments.
“By means of our reason and what we have learned we develop ideas, models, representations of creation, allowing us to know all this to greater depths and to manipulate it for our use. Whether it is through mathematical formulations, flow charts, geometric models, or whatever, we come to understand the patterns that are the workings of this miraculous dust.”
As interested, serious researchers into our human past, should we deny the observations of the Genesis writer because he did not use flow charts, etc.?

What we need to do is to walk in the moccasins of the Genesis writer and figure out how to describe his view of the nature, including ours, of what is living in his environment without gasoline stations.

Instead of searching for some kind of geometric model, we need to evaluate the use of language in those first three chapters of Genesis. We cannot stop at merely saying there is some figurative language, we have to go deeper into the real nature of whatever is being described figuratively. Grammatically, we find strong declarative sentences. Even when the “science” terminology is wrong by our standards, it is expressed strongly and not speculatively. Genesis 2: 15-17 is not expressed as some theory.
 
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