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grannymh
Guest
May I remind everyone that evolution discussion is a banned topic.
While this article is extremely interesting, it does not belong in this thread because of its evolution base.
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While this article is extremely interesting, it does not belong in this thread because of its evolution base.
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fhansen
Guest
If I may respond. I don’t know the full answer to that question but one thing I absolutely love about the Incarnation is that, by it, God completely sanctified humanity. I mean, if Adam or ourselves ever experienced shame at being a creature, at being human, and/or if the devil seeks to use that against us, to diminish human worth and dignity, God coming as man should serve to completely crush that thought in it’s tracks. From there Jesus shows us how to truly* be* human, how to express the image of God within us, being a work of His hands, having been made as expressions of Himself in some manner or another to begin with after all.Thank you Grannymh for this full explaination of Adam, it is much appreciated
The piece below leads me to a question I have to ask also :
As Adam was just a human like us, why did God assume himself as a human in Jesus?
I think it sounds as though he sacrificed himself back to himself in a way. Adam was not God, made only in the image of God, with a soul etc.
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grannymh
Guest
Note: This is the corrected version of post 553
You are very observing. Thank you.
I did leave out the answer to your valid questions. Actually, you have the valid answer.
Jesus assumed human nature because Adam was just a human.
Yet, there is much more I have learned since my youth mainly due to some weird ideas which became popular. Being popular does not necessarily mean they were true.
I will not be back to the computer until tomorrow or Monday. For me, that will give me time to think and pray about the answers. However, you may come up with the answers.
Simpleas,Thank you Grannymh for this full explaination of Adam, it is much appreciated
The piece below leads me to a question I have to ask also :
As Adam was just a human like us, why did God assume himself as a human in Jesus?
I think it sounds as though he sacrificed himself back to himself in a way. Adam was not God, made only in the image of God, with a soul etc.
Jesus was Human but much more than Adam and us, he was God.
If Jesus being born of woman, and his mother was free from O.S Jesus was free from O.S, and became the sacrifice for the sins of the world and the O.S.
Adam was just a human, who disobeyed God, yet God had to assume human nature to resolve O.S?
I’m not sure I’ve explain my question well enough…and please… I hope this does not sound blasphemous.
*One of the important features of the Catholic Church is that its doctrines hang together because the Divine Revelation of God is the source. Obviously, not all Catholic doctrines are completely explained in the first three chapters of Genesis; however, one can recognize the flow starting with Genesis 1:1. For example, I was taught that Adam was a human being in the same manner that we are human. This fact becomes the base for Christ assuming human nature. *
You are very observing. Thank you.
I did leave out the answer to your valid questions. Actually, you have the valid answer.
Jesus assumed human nature because Adam was just a human.
Yet, there is much more I have learned since my youth mainly due to some weird ideas which became popular. Being popular does not necessarily mean they were true.I will not be back to the computer until tomorrow or Monday. For me, that will give me time to think and pray about the answers. However, you may come up with the answers.
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
May I remind everyone that evolution discussion is a banned topic.
While this article is extremely interesting, it does not belong in this thread because of its evolution base.
It’s more about DNA. People of European decent have 1 to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA. Since Europians have Neanderthal DNA are they 1 to 4 percent less sinless? They are not wholly decendants of Adam.
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buffalo
Guest
May I remind everyone that evolution discussion is a banned topic.
While this article is extremely interesting, it does not belong in this thread because of its evolution base.
With all due respect, it goes right to Adam and Eve and their offspring. I think it very relevant. Palaeoanthropology is the study of humanity.
“This means, of course, that we must abandon, once and for all, views of modern human superiority over archaic (ancient) humans. The terms “archaic” and “modern” lose all meaning as do concepts of modern human replacement of all other lineages.”
This quote reinforces Catholic understanding of Adam as being much more than a brute or caveman.
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grannymh
Guest
I studied the original paper. It is not even close to the topic of this thread which is Adam & Logic. At the very least, it can derail the subject.
I expect due respect for the people who have worked hard on this thread to defend and explain the Catholic doctrine of monogenism. Respect for readers is also expected.
The subject of this thread is a difficult one. Still, the views are close to 21,000. This means that the topic of this thread is important.
I hope that the purpose of this thread will be respected. Thank you.
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you.
I have not thought of Jesus in the depth of your words. They add more meaning to the words of St. Paul when he compares and contrasts Jesus and Adam. I know that Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, loved us so much that He assumed Adam’s nature without sin in order to repair Adam’s damage. It is a sweet idea to meditate on Jesus deliberately showing us how to be truly human. It is the concept of being truly human that invigorates.
Jesus assumed human nature free from any sin or stain of sin. Yet, his human nature could feel the pain and sadness of all people past present and future. And yes, this is possible because we are all descendants from Adam.
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simpleas
Guest
Fhansen,
Please do respond
You know you have a way with words that make me feel slightly guilty for asking questions! I know thats not your intent
And you are helping me.
God completely sanctified humanity.
My first thought here was how?. By that I mean, humans still sin in the most horrendous ways possible.Even people of faith. Jesus is beaten and murdered to take away the sins of the world, yet its possible for humans to sin.
A&E were holy, broke communion with God, but still may have been holy to a degree, because we have the prophets throughtout the bible who were considered holy?
God had to assume human form to fix a fault, that his creature human broke. Only then can he give us the holy spirit to help guide us on our spiritual path back to him.
If I can understand how Jesus is the new Adam, even though Adam was only human at the beginning, how we still are born with the O.S even after Jesus’ sacrifice and we are free from sin, but not as the first parents were. I think I might wake up…
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simpleas
Guest
Thanks.Note: This is the corrected version of post 553
Simpleas,
You are very observing. Thank you.
I did leave out the answer to your valid questions. Actually, you have the valid answer.
Jesus assumed human nature because Adam was just a human.
I will not be back to the computer until tomorrow or Monday. For me, that will give me time to think and pray about the answers. However, you may come up with the answers.
I don’t see how I have the answer, I can believe Adam was only human, and Jesus was God, but God taking on human form to fix a fault that his human creature caused, but O.S still remains on the human race is what I lack understanding in.
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Aloysium
Guest
You believe that Neanderthals were not human because someone supposed that the morphogical differences between their bones and those of other humans meant they were not, and everyone else jumped on the band wagon. Obviously, if these findings are valid, they were as human as you and I.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, after writing that I thought it might not be understood as I intended it. What I mean is that, separate from justification, humanity is already sacred and deserving of respect and dignity. Contrast the following, from the CCC, with the way the world often as not conceives of and treats each other:Fhansen,
Please do respond
You know you have a way with words that make me feel slightly guilty for asking questions! I know thats not your intent
God completely sanctified humanity.
My first thought here was how?. By that I mean, humans still sin in the most horrendous ways possible.Even people of faith. Jesus is beaten and murdered to take away the sins of the world, yet its possible for humans to sin.
A&E were holy, broke communion with God, but still may have been holy to a degree, because we have the prophets throughtout the bible who were considered holy?
God had to assume human form to fix a fault, that his creature human broke. Only then can he give us the holy spirit to help guide us on our spiritual path back to him.
If I can understand how Jesus is the new Adam, even though Adam was only human at the beginning, how we still are born with the O.S even after Jesus’ sacrifice and we are free from sin, but not as the first parents were. I think I might wake up…
I.** “IN THE IMAGE OF GOD”
356 Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”.219 He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”,220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.221
357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.
358 God created everything for man,222 but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him:
What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist. God attached so much importance to his salvation that he did not spare his own Son for the sake of man. Nor does he ever cease to work, trying every possible means, until he has raised man up to himself and made him sit at his right hand.223
359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."224
St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."225**
We’re fallen but loved fiercely by God. By His coming as one of us He shows that there’s nothing inherently evil about being human; there was no good reason for Adam to be ashamed of his nakedness in the garden. Adam created a division and an enmity with God and with himself by his act of disobedience.
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grannymh
Guest
May I gently suggest that you pause on previous post statements regarding the simple fact that Adam shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity?Thanks.
I don’t see how I have the answer, I can believe Adam was only human, and Jesus was God, but God taking on human form to fix a fault that his human creature caused, but O.S still remains on the human race is what I lack understanding in.
Please think about who established the relationship between Adam the creature and God the Creator. Who had authority or power to create a being capable of sharing in Divine life.
Post 564 has clues.
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simpleas
Guest
Thanks.
I’ve read those passages before now, just leads to more questions for me.
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Aloysium
Guest
:twocents:
The bookend visions of Genesis and Revelation reveal truths couched in symbolism.
What ever else, the Garden represents our original state in time, as eternal beings.
At the Garden’s Centre, at the core of humanity’s original relationship with God and the rest of His creation, we find two trees. One that gave knowledge of pre-existing moral order, laid at the foundations of the universe, and the other that gave eternal life. At the Centre is the wood of the cross: the death and resurrection of the one true vine, the Word made flesh. In the moment we ate the fruit, we crucified Christ.
Adam as the first man and humanity itself, had been made whole within the garden. Eve was taken from his side, and thus one became two: self-and-other. His outside was her inside, her outside was his inside: whole again in love. We do not exist as separate entities, but in relation to one another. They were holy community with God.
Through Adam, as we do in each moment, we participated in deciding who we were to become. We have free will and we chose; his decision was our decision.
In choosing himself, the first man was drawn into himself, into his selfishness.
That choice damaged our relationship with God. It damaged what had been a spontaneous ability to love. Our fundamental nature, that humanity that we share, each with our special talents and the graces God has bestowed on us, it was changed in accordance with our will.
The result was the creation of walls between us and God, between each other and even within our very selves. Now we have to be reminded to treat the other as ourselves, to be patient and forgiving.
All sinners, we have Christ, Himself and through His Church, to bring us back to know Love; He is the Way out of the consequences of original sin. Through Him, we each personally join one another to be where we were destined to be: from the Garden to the new Jerusalem, with God.
The bookend visions of Genesis and Revelation reveal truths couched in symbolism.
What ever else, the Garden represents our original state in time, as eternal beings.
At the Garden’s Centre, at the core of humanity’s original relationship with God and the rest of His creation, we find two trees. One that gave knowledge of pre-existing moral order, laid at the foundations of the universe, and the other that gave eternal life. At the Centre is the wood of the cross: the death and resurrection of the one true vine, the Word made flesh. In the moment we ate the fruit, we crucified Christ.
Adam as the first man and humanity itself, had been made whole within the garden. Eve was taken from his side, and thus one became two: self-and-other. His outside was her inside, her outside was his inside: whole again in love. We do not exist as separate entities, but in relation to one another. They were holy community with God.
Through Adam, as we do in each moment, we participated in deciding who we were to become. We have free will and we chose; his decision was our decision.
In choosing himself, the first man was drawn into himself, into his selfishness.
That choice damaged our relationship with God. It damaged what had been a spontaneous ability to love. Our fundamental nature, that humanity that we share, each with our special talents and the graces God has bestowed on us, it was changed in accordance with our will.
The result was the creation of walls between us and God, between each other and even within our very selves. Now we have to be reminded to treat the other as ourselves, to be patient and forgiving.
All sinners, we have Christ, Himself and through His Church, to bring us back to know Love; He is the Way out of the consequences of original sin. Through Him, we each personally join one another to be where we were destined to be: from the Garden to the new Jerusalem, with God.
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simpleas
Guest
May I ask if you would return to post 545 and continue on from No.2.
I think I need to so it down alittle.
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Roscoe_Turner
Guest
No, I never said they weren’t human but a distinct group. From the article.
The groups are genetically distinct. The notion of species is a fuzzy distinction depending on which science you are using as a reference biology vs paleontology. The genus has always been hominids. The argument is because they could interbreed they weren’t distinct species. Cross species breeding is possible as evidenced by ligers and mules. I have no problem calling a Neanderthal a human person but they are different genetically from Homo Sapiens.
That I think makes for interesting theological questions. Our idea of the “first man” would either have to be homo erectus or some of us are not entirely descendant of the “first man” and so what would be the implications for original sin. Is it an all or nothing proposition or is it a matter of degrees. Genetically would Jesus have to have the DNA of all hominids, Neanderthal were out of Europe, and other groups like Denisovans where from other parts of the world. Or is humaneness not tied to physicality.
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grannymh
Guest
Pardon me. No matter how we look at trees…
It is important to recognize that Adam had a true, real, fully-complete nature which means that Adam had a conscience to guide him. Unless God forgot something, there is no reason for a tree, symbolic or real, to take over God’s job.
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grannymh
Guest
As for understanding Original Sin, may I suggest reading the posts discussing the topic of this thread which is Adam, a true human being, from the Catholic position which includes the spiritual world of God.
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grannymh
Guest
Please, what is the problem?
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grannymh
Guest
This is the reply I had prepared before I reached the limit for a single post.
It answers No. 2.
The answer to No. 3 is that I do not recall you using the word destroy.
No. 2.
We need to recognize the difference between living in some kind of Eden atmosphere of original holiness and justice and the value of imitating the virtues of Adam and Eve.
We need to become more familiar with the term sanctifying grace as being the same as original holiness because both refer to sharing in God’s life on planet earth.
As for mastery of self, that in itself does not remove the possibility of sin. Today, we have the special graces of the Catholic seven sacraments which help us gain and keep mastery of self.
May I gently suggest that you pause on previous post statements regarding the simple fact that Original Sin shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity?
Please think about who established the relationship between Adam the creature and God the Creator. Who had authority or power to create a being capable of sharing in Divine life?
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