Adam. Man or Myth?

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Has anyone got any thoughts as to wethere Adam was a real person or not. Here’s a starting point.

People seem to trust the OT less in terms of how litteral it is or how true (this irritates me), so i’ll start in the NT. Both Matthew and Luke’s gospels contain geneologies of Jesus. We get as far back as Abraham and no-one doubts that any of those people actually excisted. But after that ( and like wise before genesis 11) many people decide…actually it can’t be proved historically/archeologically/scientificaly so i won’t believe it. Is this any reason to disbelieve the bible, understanding that it is the pure inspiried word of God? (2 tim 3:16, 2 peter 1:20, Pro 30:5)

This isn’t the only place in the NT in which scripture refers to Adam like he was a real person. Romans 5 speaks of how jesus had to come to erase adams error. If Adam wasn’t real does that mean jesus wasn’t real either? Or if Adam is metaphorical is Jesus metaphorical? if Adam is only a spiritual truth is Jesus only a spiritual truth? I know Jesus was a flesh and Blood man, and scripture leads me to believe that Adam was the same. Any thoughts anyone???👍
no debate necessary. God created the first man, Adam. therefore Adam is not a myth.
 
Then it is not science then…science relies on empiricism.
Sort of.

Scientia means “knowledge”. God is omniscient, so knows all “science”.

What we call “Science” is best refered to as Natural Philosophy.

Which is why a physicist recieved a PhD, a Doctor of Philosophy degree; because he is a teacher (Latin docere - to teach) of Philosophy
 
Well that’s fine, you are free to believe whatever you like. If you want to believe that humans are the result of an act of special creation that’s entirely up to you. A belief in a miracle always trumps science. (I happen to think that there is overwhelming evidence for the fact of common descent and the idea that human beings, physically at least, are the product of evolution.)

But buffalo goes further than saying than man was created miraculously. He says that evolution doesn’t happen, and he points to an empirical scientific reason for that. He claims that evolution does not happen because mutations are not observed to increase the information in DNA (his words not mine). That is a purely scientific claim that makes no reference to God or miracles, and I am simply asking him to back up his claim from a scientific point of view. The fact is that his claim is scientific rhubarb and he will be unable to back it up.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
I respect your beliefs and appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Personally as I said before I believe God The Father breathed upon the dust of the earth and created man,
 
Yes but theologians are still interpreting it
See posts #72 and #76
😃 Let them interpret what they wish, what they ‘interpret’ and what the truth is are two different things altogether. We have here science vs. the Bible. One has to make their own choices.
 
Sort of.

Scientia means “knowledge”. God is omniscient, so knows all “science”.

What we call “Science” is best refered to as Natural Philosophy.

Which is why a physicist recieved a PhD, a Doctor of Philosophy degree; because he is a teacher (Latin docere - to teach) of Philosophy
Nice etymology, but science by definition requires on to conduct controlled repeatable experiments, or observe something that can be detected with our currently technology. Saying it is beyond the five senses automatically disqualifies it as “science” in this sense.
 
Nice etymology, but science by definition requires on to conduct controlled repeatable experiments, or observe something that can be detected with our currently technology. Saying it is beyond the five senses automatically disqualifies it as “science” in this sense.
👍 Ok!
 
Then it is not science then…science relies on empiricism…

… science by definition requires one to conduct controlled repeatable experiments, or observe something that can be detected with our currently technology. Saying it is beyond the five senses automatically disqualifies it as “science” in this sense.
Howdy,
Do you, or anyone else here, have the empirical proof for the evolution of Man.
Hunches, ideas, and opinions are not empirical enough to base a ‘scientific’ belief on IMO.
 
Howdy,
Do you, or anyone else here, have the empirical proof for the evolution of Man.
THE proof, as if something that complex can be gleaned from a single piece of evidence.

Laboratories and museums are filled to the roof with the data.

You and I are living proof.
Hunches, ideas, and opinions are not empirical enough to base a ‘scientific’ belief on IMO.
If you don’t know the difference between a hunch and a theory
Or between theory and belief I’m not sure that anything I could say would satisfy you. Your mind is made up.

As for empirical; there are many known instances of speciation both in nature and in the lab. (You will of course either (a) ignore that, (b) bring up that silly micro/macro evolution distinction but fail to provide empirical evidence for what stops change at the micro level only, or (c) insist that evidence of speciation in other species doesn’t apply to humans but fail to provide empirical evidence as to why. )
 
😃 Let them interpret what they wish, what they ‘interpret’ and what the truth is are two different things altogether. We have here science vs. the Bible. One has to make their own choices.
Aquinas taught us centuries ago that there is no “vs”.

Natural revelation can’t be in conflict with special revelation.

Forcing a false conflict is IMO a disservice to the Faith.
 
Howdy,
Do you, or anyone else here, have the empirical proof for the evolution of Man.
Hunches, ideas, and opinions are not empirical enough to base a ‘scientific’ belief on IMO.
Proof!!! There is no such thing as proof in science… science practices skeptical epistemology, unlike religion.

Want some evidence for human evolution? Read this paper, and remember this is only ONE paper about human evolution…

ruccs.rutgers.edu/~karin/550.READINGS/EVOLUTION/Enard2002.pdf

I hope you realize that skeptics rather get their information from Nature, not the Catechism 🙂 .
 
Proof!!! There is no such thing as proof in science… science practices skeptical epistemology, unlike religion.

Want some evidence for human evolution? Read this paper, and remember this is only ONE paper about human evolution…

ruccs.rutgers.edu/~karin/550.READINGS/EVOLUTION/Enard2002.pdf

I hope you realize that skeptics rather get their information from Nature, not the Catechism 🙂 .
Hi,
I’m going to be really annoying and ignore any links to stuff, and neither am I going to link you to stuff.
Present your own argument in your own words as to why and how you believe something you cannot prove.
 
Hi,
I’m going to be really annoying and ignore any links to stuff, and neither am I going to link you to stuff.
Present your own argument in your own words as to why and how you believe something you cannot prove.
No, it is a peer-reviewed paper in Nature. Look at figure 1 in the link, and ask yourself why would God create Humans, Chimps, Gorillas, Orangatans, Rhesus monkeys, and mice and it make look like they evolved from a common ancestor. Why does is human FOXP2 look like it could have been derived from the common ancestor of mice and human?
 
THE proof, as if something that complex can be gleaned from a single piece of evidence.

Laboratories and museums are filled to the roof with the data.

You and I are living proof.
Yes we’re living proof of something. But what and how we, literally, cannot say we know - yet.
Your mind is made up.
Yes. But I’m willing to listen to the evidence for the evolution of Man. I’ve heard there is as much variation in modern skulls to make a proposed transitional sequence of prehistoric skulls look very shakey indeed.
As for empirical; there are many known instances of speciation both in nature and in the lab. (You will of course either (a) ignore that, (b) bring up that silly micro/macro evolution distinction but fail to provide empirical evidence for what stops change at the micro level only, or (c) insist that evidence of speciation in other species doesn’t apply to humans but fail to provide empirical evidence as to why. )
Nice argument.
Stephen J Gould, while I’m not a fan of his, found it necessary to modify his own view of what the “evolution of species” meant.
To him it was necessary, as a ‘practicing paleontologist’ (so to speak), to change evolution from a logical, reasonable, gradual, continous change from one species through variations into, eventually, another species.
That was not what he found in the rocks.
Change he saw was sudden, and unexplained, with no gradual and continuous transition. To my mind, the practical ‘evolution’ he saw was not the evolution of the textbooks. It leaves lots of questions to be answered about just what evolution means. Is it something chaotic and random, blindly rushing in every direction. If it is then surely the world would be literally swimming in failed experiments as the chances of randomly hitting on a perfect creature would be vastly outweighed by all the millions of combinations of failures.
My own theory, for what its worth, is that there is a mechanism within a representative of a species which allows for, if you can imagine it, a set of perfect variations within that species. Evolution then is a response of a species with a known outcome, a sort of jump to a higher or lower gear.
But thats just my idea, I don’t tell anyone its true, its reasonable, possible - has all the evidence of any other evolution theory. But it leaves a lot of mystery. I did read a paper someone provided as proof of evolution between species. But the paper said there was no known examples of animals evolving cross-species or whatever the term is. There were a few examples of plants and fewer again of insects but none of more complex animals.
 
…why would God create Humans, Chimps, Gorillas, Orangatans, Rhesus monkeys, and mice and it make look like they evolved from a common ancestor?
There is a reason why I won’t look at links - I have not time, some of us have to work.🙂

The reason is not difficult. He did not do it to trick you. All of those creatures have one thing in common, - physics. Everything listed above is designed to live on a planet which has a set of laws of physics and chemistry. We are similar mechanically because we share the same system of physics and chemistry.
 
Howdy,
Do you, or anyone else here, have the empirical proof for the evolution of Man.
Hunches, ideas, and opinions are not empirical enough to base a ‘scientific’ belief on IMO.
Ok, thanks for the response.
 
There is a reason why I won’t look at links - I have not time, some of us have to work.🙂

The reason is not difficult. He did not do it to trick you. All of those creatures have one thing in common, - physics. Everything listed above is designed to live on a planet which has a set of laws of physics and chemistry. We are similar mechanically because we share the same system of physics and chemistry.
The primary structures of the transcription factor FOXP2 is almost identical and it is best explained by common descent or a God who made FOXP2 in those organism similar so scientists would be confused and infer common descent when God created those organisms.

If the latter, God has done a good job decieving scientists (and myself).
 
Yes we’re living proof of something. But what and how we, literally, cannot say we know - yet.
What do you mean “we” QuimoSabe? 😉
Yes. But I’m willing to listen to the evidence for the evolution of Man. I’ve heard there is as much variation in modern skulls to make a proposed transitional sequence of prehistoric skulls look very shakey indeed.[/quot]

Citation please.
I Leatherman;1708891:
Nice argument.
it wasn’t an argument
Stephen J Gould, while I’m not a fan of his, found it necessary to modify his own view of what the “evolution of species” meant.
To him it was necessary, as a ‘practicing paleontologist’ (so to speak), to change evolution from a logical, reasonable, gradual, continous change from one species through variations into, eventually, another species.
That was not what he found in the rocks.
Change he saw was sudden, and unexplained, with no gradual and continuous transition. To my mind, the practical ‘evolution’ he saw was not the evolution of the textbooks. ….
Which textbooks?
I said nothing about the debate between punctured equilibrium or slow and steady evolution (which aer just variations on a theme). It is a non-issue and red herring. (Rate can be meaningless depending upon your timescale after all)
As I stated above, while there may be debate over the details of the mechanism(s), no one is debating whether it happened or not.
It leaves lots of questions to be answered about just what evolution means. Is it something chaotic and random, blindly rushing in every direction.
It is pretty obvious that there are both a random and a deterministic aspects to the process.
If it is then surely the world would be literally swimming in failed experiments as the chances of randomly hitting on a perfect creature would be vastly outweighed by all the millions of combinations of failures.
99 + % of every species that ever existed are extinct
how’s that for failures?
My own theory, for what its worth, is that there is a mechanism within a representative of a species which allows for, if you can imagine it, a set of perfect variations within that species. Evolution then is a response of a species with a known outcome, a sort of jump to a higher or lower gear.
A known outcome? In response to what? Known by whom? If it is known to God then why couldn’t He just have set up the first simple life to “jump” to a higher gear to humans and daisys and used car salesmen given the right conditions and enough time?

I’m not sure how part of what you’re saying is any different from old fashion variance within a population. Bio-chemistry and what has gone before limits how a population will (and can and might) respond to selective pressures.

And what makes an organism “perfect”
But thats just my idea, I don’t tell anyone its true, its reasonable, possible - has all the evidence of any other evolution theory.
Well to say that you would have to predict a “known outcome” for a given set of conditions and then look for it
And since isolated populations diverge form each other genetically (whether from run of the mill genetic drift or some other factor) how does that factor into your theory.
You would also have to show how your theory conforms with the existing evidence more than current models,
But it leaves a lot of mystery. I did read a paper someone provided as proof of evolution between species.
which paper was this?
But the paper said there was no known examples of animals evolving cross-species or whatever the term is. There were a few examples of plants and fewer again of insects but none of more complex animals.
Plants and insects are quite complex. Many of our domesticated crops and animals are new species

We’ve only been studying this in the lab for 100 years or so and these things tend to take many generations to become evident so putting long-lived organisms under selective pressure is both impractical and (depending on what you do) unethical.
 
Has anyone got any thoughts as to wethere Adam was a real person or not. Here’s a starting point.

People seem to trust the OT less in terms of how litteral it is or how true (this irritates me), so i’ll start in the NT. Both Matthew and Luke’s gospels contain geneologies of Jesus. We get as far back as Abraham and no-one doubts that any of those people actually excisted. But after that ( and like wise before genesis 11) many people decide…actually it can’t be proved historically/archeologically/scientificaly so i won’t believe it. Is this any reason to disbelieve the bible, understanding that it is the pure inspiried word of God? (2 tim 3:16, 2 peter 1:20, Pro 30:5)

This isn’t the only place in the NT in which scripture refers to Adam like he was a real person. Romans 5 speaks of how jesus had to come to erase adams error. If Adam wasn’t real does that mean jesus wasn’t real either? Or if Adam is metaphorical is Jesus metaphorical? if Adam is only a spiritual truth is Jesus only a spiritual truth? I know Jesus was a flesh and Blood man, and scripture leads me to believe that Adam was the same. Any thoughts anyone???👍

**Yup - he’s neither. Adam represents all mankind - there was no individual man called Adam. **​

**It is illogical to suppose that the reality of Jesus is dependent on that of “Adam”. It suffices that there was a state of sin which divided God from men, and that Jesus has (much more than) repaired this. Sinners do not have to be called Adam to sin - the teaching & theology of Romans 5 is unaffected by the name of the sinner. It does require there to have been a state of sin, & the work of Christ regarding that sin, to be realities. **

**It does not require an individual man named Adam (let alone one with a wife named Eve, sons named Cain, Abel, Seth, a lifespan of 930 years, & all the other details about “Adam”) to be real; for alienation from the Righteous God is not caused by having three sons with those names or by any other detail about “Adam”: it is caused by sinning. To insist on the reality of the supposed individual man “Adam”, is to “major on minors” - and to miss the point of Romans 5 entirely. 😦 If the first human to sin was a stooping creature only recently come down from the trees who could not even talk, the point made by St. Paul would still be perfectly validated. **

**For sin is sin, no matter what the name (or lack of it) of the sinner. And in that passage, Adam is important not for himself, but as the first sinner. It is not fair to St.Paul to turn Romans 5 into a text on ancient anthropology - it’s not. **

**St.Paul probably did take for granted there had been an individual Adam - he would have had little reason not to. Most people can’t now, because there is too much detail about the remote past of the earth and the human race to make Genesis 2-3 believable as history. If the human race is 40,000 years old (give or take a few thousand years), it is simply incredible that it could be historically true - no language is remotely that old, certainly not Hebrew. The Apostle was not dealing with that sort of timespan, but one far shorter: & the Scriptures were not inspired in order to teach us about ancient chronology. **

**BTW - not being a literalist, is not the same as disbelieving the Bible. It might be truer to say that literalists (& Fundamentalists) do that. 🙂 **
 
You think that’s’ something? In addition to all of that, I also believe that a virgin gave birth to a child who, when he grew up, restored the sight to the blind, raised people from the dead, fed 5,000 with just a few fish, walked on water, was put to death on a cross and then ROSE from the dead on the third day.

With God, all things are possible. Seriously. 🙂

**There’s a difference between conjuring & omnipotence though. To satisfy the facts mentioned by PhilVaz, God would have to mess around with the facts of the past - & that would be conjuring. **​

God could (I suppose) alter the history of the US so that the 2000 Presidential election was won by Frodo the hobbit - but what would be the point 🙂 ? And what would be the point in monkeying with the past so that Adam in Gen. 3 lived c. 4000 BC, and became the grandfather of the first city founders who lived in 9000 BC, while himself speaking a language which did not exist until c. 2000 BC (?) ?

**Of course, it’s not impossible that the Garden of Eden is (was) on another planet - maybe that’s why Mars is so inhospitable. (Impossibility is of more than one kind - that’s what seems to be forgotten at times.) If so, that might allow Genesis to be as literal as the most devoted literalist could possibly want: for Ark - read Space-Ark. Has the CC said Eden is not allowed to be anywhere but on earth ? Not AFAIK. **

FWIW, I too believe in the Resurrection 🙂 ##
 
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