Adam or Eve? Who to ultimately blame for the fall?

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No, you’ve got me all wrong. I said souls COULD be linked to some genetic inherited dominant Brain Trait that all humans now have…but more likely, I said, it was merely a metaphysical thing inherited if you have simply at least one souled parent…

And I do not believe a literal flood wiped out the non-souled hominids…I said that I believe the story, on one of its levels, merely says THAT they were wiped out somehow. I don’t think it tells the mechanism. It could have been disease. It could have been starvation, an ice age, being attacked by each other and the souled humans.

And I do not believe only a few survived this…I believe that 10000 or even many more souled humans survived this…and even some non-souled…but I believe there was some sort of disaster or plague or something which gave the Souled population the upper hand and allowed them to easily replace and dilute with souls the remaining non-souled population…

There can be no “half-souls”, something either has a Stream of Consciousness, has cohesive awareness, and free will, or it doesnt. Animals are merely Organic Robots…they are Objects, mere Items…extremely complex and well crafted Toys as a gift from the creator…with a “mortal soul” which is not a Soul but merely the “Principal of Animation” the “lifeforce”…but animals have no more consciousness or Self than a Robot or Rock…they have no “I” to cohesively see all the data that is taken in…it is merely used by its computer-brain to do things based on deterministic physical laws
 
I find it hard to accept that an all-knowing God would put the knowledge of good and evil and immortality into an apple.
 
I find it hard to accept that an all-knowing God would put the knowledge of good and evil and immortality into an apple.
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It’s not certain that that’s exactly what happened, as it falls into the realm of possibly figurative language.

Here’s another way to think about it, though: The title of the fruit is indicative of an ironic meaning, similar to calling a handgun a “Peacemaker”. It reminds me of a story I heard on a farm growing up in which a boy asks his older brother what the pellets under the rabbit cage are. The brother responds that they’re “smart pills”, so the boy picks up a handful and eats them, gags, and says “those tasted like poop,” to which the brother responds, “see, you’re getting smarter already.” It was the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil simply because it was evil to disobey God by eating it, and by doing so Adam and Eve became intellectually, and intimately, aware of the boundary between Good and Evil; by bringing the first defect into the world they came to know defects rather than perfection.
 
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patg:
The Church in absolutely no way requires anyone to believe or suggests there is real history in a story about talking serpents and magic trees.

Yes there is essential truth in this story and yes this is a story about rejection of God. BUT, as the catechism states, it is told in figurative language. Discussing this event as real history can’t be any more than a fun little exercise. If you take it as more than that you are totally missing the intent of the author - which was not to tell history as is indicated by the numerous literary clues he or she provides.

Please talk about the presence of evil and rejection of God - not about whether snakes once talked to people.

Pat
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Read the Bible as they did years ago. Read the what and the why, not just the why.
 
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hecd2:
Unfortunately, not only is there no evidence for a global flood but it is disallowed by the physics, the geology, the genetics and almost every other science we can think of. Furthermore the minimum bottleneck is 10,000 human individuals according to the genetic evidence which is rather more than the story of the flood would support, and the minimum bottleneck in many other species is much greater than the limited number than would have been on the Ark. I am afraid the story of Noah is as much a symbolic and non-literal story as the 6-day creation and the story and Adam and Eve are. The story of Noah is most likely the record of a disastrous local flood in the Middle East a few thousand years ago. It has no significance for wider human genetics and is a myth if applied globally.
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What say you when the excusion to the ark finds an ark. How will you explain how it got so far up the mountain?
 
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buffalo:
What say you when the excusion to the ark finds an ark. How will you explain how it got so far up the mountain?
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No ark has been found.

And I repeat, not only is there no evidence for a global flood but it is disallowed by the physics, the geology, the genetics and almost every other science we can think of. Furthermore the minimum bottleneck is 10,000 human individuals according to the genetic evidence which is rather more than the story of the flood would support, and the minimum bottleneck in many other species is much greater than the limited number than would have been on the Ark. I am afraid the story of Noah is as much a symbolic and non-literal story as the 6-day creation and the story and Adam and Eve are. The story of Noah is most likely the record of a disastrous local flood in the Middle East a few thousand years ago. It has no significance for wider human genetics and is a myth if applied globally.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
It makes little difference. The result was the same. The story of Adam and Eve is, I think, probably not a literal happening. What IS important is that we are sinners in need of a redeeming Lord. Just look around if you think we’ve got it all straight.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## If in doubt, blame the female 😃 - maybe she nagged him into it. ##
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Or maybe Samuel Clemens had the right idea:

“After all these years I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.”
 
Sorry, I didn’t have a chance to read all the posts. Hopefully I don’t repeat anything.

I voted Adam. Jesus is often referred to as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve. Jesus was directly responible for our redemption and Mary’s obedience made it possible (so she is indirectly responsible). Likewise, Adam was the direct cause of our fall and Eve’s disobedience made it possible (so she is the indirect cause).
 
I voted both. Each of them made their own poor choices that lead to the fall.
 
Adam. God revealed the “rules of the Garden” to him first. Scripture does not say anything about eating of the fruit of the tree viz. the woman. It was his responsibility to guide her.
 
Actually, it was both. According to the priestly version of the story, they were one unit.

Just was a woman was used to bring sin into the world, a woman was chosen by God to bring its’ Redemption.
 
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Antigen:
Actually, it was both. According to the priestly version of the story, they were one unit.

Just was a woman was used to bring sin into the world, a woman was chosen by God to bring its’ Redemption.
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Dear Antigen,

Thanks for bringing this thread to life.

I agree that original sin is both Adam and Eve’s undoing.

You wrote: “Just as a woman was used to bring sin into the world” The word “used” stands out to me. Was Eve used by Satan to bring sin into the world or did he use Adam?

I think Paul makes argument that original sin came to the world by Adam, not Eve, maybe it’s because Adam had been given the responsibility of keeping it out? ie God instructed Adam, not Eve regarding eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That was done before Eve was created.

Did the “act” in original sin have something to do with the relationship between man and woman? It sure seems their “unity” got confused and there seems a rift or lack of trust between the two from that time…until Jesus, I think.Maybe we fail to recognize they played different roles in the act? Maybe their sins were different? Were all 7 deadly sins involved in the fall of man? Maybe Adam’s was pride and lust… Maybe Eve’s was sloth and envy…?

Did Adam “use” Eve? Did she allow it? Was it something that placed Adam above Eve? If not, why did Eve get the punishment she got? It’s still a profound mystery.:banghead: …just trying to understand it with hope that unity will be fully restored to all men and women, in God’s will and time.

Here’s an illustration of how things look to me:

Before the fall
GOD
Adam + Eve = harmony

After the fall
GOD
Adam
Eve
= disharmony

After Jesus
GOD
Adam + Eve = harmony (with confussion)

God’s Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven!!!
 
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elizabeth4truth:
I agree that original sin is both Adam and Eve’s undoing.

You wrote: “Just as a woman was used to bring sin into the world” The word “used” stands out to me. Was Eve used by Satan to bring sin into the world or did he use Adam?
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Lucifer used the innocence of Adam/Eve to introduce sin into their lives. God used to folly of men to share His Wisdom. He used the weakness of Adam/Eve to make us strong.
I think Paul makes argument that original sin came to the world by Adam, not Eve, maybe it’s because Adam had been given the responsibility of keeping it out? ie God instructed Adam, not Eve regarding eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That was done before Eve was created.
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Don’t think so. Paul was trained as a (how do you spell this?) Saddchusi, the more mystical, conservative train of thought in Judeism at the time. In their speak, you know how they refer to every man woman and child with a term like “mankind”. Every mixed group was refered to in the masculine. Just like English.

Paul viewed Adam and Eve as a unit, the way the priestly didactic of the Talmud views them.

:hmmm:

Eve rebelled against God. Where Eve said, “I would like to know the difference between good and evil.” and with Adam brought sin and death into the world, thus making them copeccatrix, Mary said, “Be it done unto me according to Your will.” United foever with the work of Her Son, she became a Co-redemptrix.

This is not to take away from the power or sacrifice of Jesus through whom there is salvation. Just as it was through Adam and Eve’s rebellion that man knew seperation from God, through Mary’s fiat and God’s becoming man, redemption was brought into the world, humanity and divinity were forever linked and man received a gift they would not have enjoyed even in the garden of Eden, thus totally thwarting Lucifers’ plans to muck things up.
 
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Antigen:
Lucifer used the innocence of Adam/Eve to introduce sin into their lives. God used to folly of men to share His Wisdom. He used the weakness of Adam/Eve to make us strong.
QUOTE]

Antigen,

Do you think it possible the Original Sin was oral ejaculation? It would explain how Eve ate first. It goes against the process of creating life. On the “Sodimite” string it is being discussed, regarding homosexual and hetrosexual intercourse. It would have put Adam in the position of using Eve, thus he would become her god, in an ill way. Eve would have had to agree to do it, thus making Adam her master, which became part of her punishment. Had Adam made the initial decision to ask Eve to perform the act it makes sense that he would be punished with government over Eve, with right judgement removed, ie they were both left to themselves and learned how to survice using each other…until Jesus came and turned things around.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Elizabeth
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