S
SemperReformada
Guest
How does any of the above demonstrate your claim that the the deutero’s were in place before the canon was set?
- Status
B
BibleAnswer
Guest
I see a problem here, and that is the continual debate over what the bible shoud be. the bible is already complete. Whatever books are in, or are now out, is of no consequence. It is completed. It is what it is.
By focusing on a inconsequential piece of information, only proves that you do not trust in what we now have as the bible.
By focusing on if a book is suppose to be in or not, takes away from the fullness that is the gospel, and takes away from actual meaningful study.
The books that are out, are out, and they will never be put back in. So we should move on, from the milk of the situation, to the meat. Let us now grow in grace and trust in the bible, as the authority and that it is indeed complete.
We are not glorifying God by debating over what happened during Carthridge or the reformation or this meeting of ancient priests, or that council of wise men. It is in the past, and now the bible is the bible.
To grow in grace, you must place the bible in front of you, and open it, then when you read a passage, you stumble upon a concept or word that is ambiguous or confusing, then you compare scripture with scripture and try to define what a certain words mean, its spiritual meaning as defined by God, then you can apply that knowledge to the verse, and come to an understanding that is altogether seperate from anything you have ever been taught.
By focusing on a inconsequential piece of information, only proves that you do not trust in what we now have as the bible.
By focusing on if a book is suppose to be in or not, takes away from the fullness that is the gospel, and takes away from actual meaningful study.
The books that are out, are out, and they will never be put back in. So we should move on, from the milk of the situation, to the meat. Let us now grow in grace and trust in the bible, as the authority and that it is indeed complete.
We are not glorifying God by debating over what happened during Carthridge or the reformation or this meeting of ancient priests, or that council of wise men. It is in the past, and now the bible is the bible.
To grow in grace, you must place the bible in front of you, and open it, then when you read a passage, you stumble upon a concept or word that is ambiguous or confusing, then you compare scripture with scripture and try to define what a certain words mean, its spiritual meaning as defined by God, then you can apply that knowledge to the verse, and come to an understanding that is altogether seperate from anything you have ever been taught.
O
Omyo12
Guest
Who is “we”?? the Protestants? Catholics? Eastern Orthodox? Ethiopian Orthodox? the Jews?
I agree.
Again, who took them out? the Jews and the Protestants… No Christian denomination (Catholic, Eastern, Oriental) adopted the Jewish canon before the Reformation
There are two groups here both claiming to hold the correct canon. Your post seems to imply- “My view of the canon is correct, so just accept it”
However, what people have been taught influences their belief. This is why Trinitarians, Unitarians, and Oneness all hold different doctrines on the nature of Christ.
Is he a creature? Is he God? Is he the Father?
Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Evangelicals all believe in Sola Scriptura yet hold completely different doctrines. My mother-in-law grew up Lutheran but converted to a Jehovah’s Witness after reading multiple Bible translations and comparing Trinitarian, Unitarian, and Oneness doctrines.
Not only that, but people who believe these separate doctrines have a boatload of verses to back up their beliefs. So how can an outsider view this? Of course you believe your own interpretation is correct since this is how you were taught. You yourself a product of your congregation, influences, or Bible translation.
There is also this claim to divine guidance (mostly from Pentecostals), that praying about it grants understanding. I’ve had both Oneness and Trinitarian Pentecostals tell me they understand the nature of Christ found in Scripture after prayer. Same method, two completely different results.
O
Omyo12
Guest
Traditionally, the LXX has included all the books found in it today.
Just like the the Palestinian canon has traditionally included the Book of Esther
There is also no “proof” the Book of Esther was canon since it is not found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and it is not quoted in the NT. Yet you accept it.
So essentially you’re saying…
“modern” Jewish Canon > Christian (prior to the 1500’s) Canon
S
SemperReformada
Guest
What version (manuscript) of the LXX do you deem to be the traditional one?
B
BibleAnswer
Guest
That was a very well thought out response, and i respect the information you presented.
Your point about all the different religiouns being able the back themselves up with their own scripture is valid and interesting.
However, the bible does tell us, how to read His word. This is not open for debate, It is set in stone so to speak.
The bible tells us, to compare scripture with scripture, precept upon precept, line upon line, spiritual things with spiritual things.
Also, that Christ spoke in parables.
Also, that Christ embodied the fullness of the Godhead, He has all the authority of God.
And the the old and new testament are the words of God, the Words of God are spoken in parables, (so that him who has ears, cannot hear, and eyes yet cannot see.)
what does that mean, it certianly doesn’t mean that God speaks out of both ends. There is one truth, one message, one understanding, and unless you compare spiritual things with spiritual things, precept upon precept, line upon line, then you would most definately not be able to hear the Word, even though you have ears. You would not see the truth, even though you have eyes. This in itself is a parabolic metaphore. Everything is a parabolic metaphor. A earthy story with a spiritual meaning.
Now the issue with all the different interpretations is quite sad, yet it is reality, however lets think about this.
The bible’s main message is salvation. It is a book about being saved, and the contrary to being saved, is being under Gods wrath. One truth, one understanding.
so who do we believe, how do we come to understanding, how to we obtain grace.
by following the two rules set forth by the Word of God, to compare scripture with scripture, to cross reference a certian word here or a phrase there. and to apply this understanding to the actual parable you are working on.
this is why we learn, that to die an unbeliever, to die unsaved, is to be under Gods wrath, to be under gods wrath is a shame and is everlasting.
We can understand that when the bible says, and the worm dieth not, that through careful study, and cross reference, that that worm is in actuality a metaphore for shame. Being under gods wrath is shaming us. The worm that doesnt die, means that we are forever shamed.
This is just a little bit, of how understanding can come to a person. Ask yourself, does any religion in the world, any and all of them. do they understand that the worm dieth not is a metaphor for being eternally shamed. My guess is no. So if you ask, “what does the worm represent,” then you will hear, “worms eat your body when you die, and you body turns back to dust.” However this would be an alltogether inaccurate interpretation, as the bible is spiritual, and the spiritual meaning is that God will forever shame us, the worm does not die.
There is so much more, but this was simply to illistrate, that indeed, people will have different ideas about different topics, however no matter the opinion, somebody has to be right. You can be objective and listen, and meditate if maybe this might be true, Because there is only one answer. If you hear something from somebody, you should rejoice in the fact that you can study the bible and learn for yourself. not reject it out of hand because of preconcieved ideas. This goes for me to.
How to you test what somebody says, and how do you test what you have been taught, by following the rules of study,
compare scripture with scripture, and define the parable by cross referencing words and ideas and then apply the knowledge.
This is why we have so many different interpretations. And you can come to the same understanding that God meant for us, by yourself through study and supplication. that is in the bible. To disregard this, means a person is not trusting in the bible. That is all there is to it.
True we have many different bible, however a person can easily discern which is the true accurate meaning of a verse or passage and which is not, but begining to see the spiritual aspect of the bible. Because then out of hand you can reject somebody or embrace them, understanding that if this person actually compares scripture with scripture, then it might be in my interest to look up what was said. and if this person says something, however does not apply the rules set forth by God, then they will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER have anything truthful to say or accurtate, becase God does not speak out of both ends. He expects us to obey HIm, to study Him, and to discern. You can automatically tell if a person doesn’t know what they are talking about, just by the fact that they have no understanding of the principal of comparing with scripture, and God spoke in parables.
Your point about all the different religiouns being able the back themselves up with their own scripture is valid and interesting.
However, the bible does tell us, how to read His word. This is not open for debate, It is set in stone so to speak.
The bible tells us, to compare scripture with scripture, precept upon precept, line upon line, spiritual things with spiritual things.
Also, that Christ spoke in parables.
Also, that Christ embodied the fullness of the Godhead, He has all the authority of God.
And the the old and new testament are the words of God, the Words of God are spoken in parables, (so that him who has ears, cannot hear, and eyes yet cannot see.)
what does that mean, it certianly doesn’t mean that God speaks out of both ends. There is one truth, one message, one understanding, and unless you compare spiritual things with spiritual things, precept upon precept, line upon line, then you would most definately not be able to hear the Word, even though you have ears. You would not see the truth, even though you have eyes. This in itself is a parabolic metaphore. Everything is a parabolic metaphor. A earthy story with a spiritual meaning.
Now the issue with all the different interpretations is quite sad, yet it is reality, however lets think about this.
The bible’s main message is salvation. It is a book about being saved, and the contrary to being saved, is being under Gods wrath. One truth, one understanding.
so who do we believe, how do we come to understanding, how to we obtain grace.
by following the two rules set forth by the Word of God, to compare scripture with scripture, to cross reference a certian word here or a phrase there. and to apply this understanding to the actual parable you are working on.
this is why we learn, that to die an unbeliever, to die unsaved, is to be under Gods wrath, to be under gods wrath is a shame and is everlasting.
We can understand that when the bible says, and the worm dieth not, that through careful study, and cross reference, that that worm is in actuality a metaphore for shame. Being under gods wrath is shaming us. The worm that doesnt die, means that we are forever shamed.
This is just a little bit, of how understanding can come to a person. Ask yourself, does any religion in the world, any and all of them. do they understand that the worm dieth not is a metaphor for being eternally shamed. My guess is no. So if you ask, “what does the worm represent,” then you will hear, “worms eat your body when you die, and you body turns back to dust.” However this would be an alltogether inaccurate interpretation, as the bible is spiritual, and the spiritual meaning is that God will forever shame us, the worm does not die.
There is so much more, but this was simply to illistrate, that indeed, people will have different ideas about different topics, however no matter the opinion, somebody has to be right. You can be objective and listen, and meditate if maybe this might be true, Because there is only one answer. If you hear something from somebody, you should rejoice in the fact that you can study the bible and learn for yourself. not reject it out of hand because of preconcieved ideas. This goes for me to.
How to you test what somebody says, and how do you test what you have been taught, by following the rules of study,
compare scripture with scripture, and define the parable by cross referencing words and ideas and then apply the knowledge.
This is why we have so many different interpretations. And you can come to the same understanding that God meant for us, by yourself through study and supplication. that is in the bible. To disregard this, means a person is not trusting in the bible. That is all there is to it.
True we have many different bible, however a person can easily discern which is the true accurate meaning of a verse or passage and which is not, but begining to see the spiritual aspect of the bible. Because then out of hand you can reject somebody or embrace them, understanding that if this person actually compares scripture with scripture, then it might be in my interest to look up what was said. and if this person says something, however does not apply the rules set forth by God, then they will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER have anything truthful to say or accurtate, becase God does not speak out of both ends. He expects us to obey HIm, to study Him, and to discern. You can automatically tell if a person doesn’t know what they are talking about, just by the fact that they have no understanding of the principal of comparing with scripture, and God spoke in parables.
M
mark_a
Guest
Don’t be silly. It the one translated from the KJV!!
S
SemperReformada
Guest
M
mark_a
Guest
By “both ends” I hope you mean both (sides of His mouth).
T
Tanner9188
Guest
**The original Septuagint did not contain the deuterocanonical books. Great Peter is dead; so does this mean the church is no longer being built? Jesus is the one that said “I will build my church”. Peter like the rest of the Apostles were used in a big and mighty way to get the church off and running. As Acts puts it “and the LORD added to their number daily”; NOT “and Peter added to their number daily”. A simpleton knows that Christ builds His own church.
“And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved”
“Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.”
As far as the rest; you can insult me all you want; makes no difference to me, i know where I stand in the Lord.**
S
SemperReformada
Guest
O
Omyo12
Guest
BibleAnswer, thank you for your response
I actually agree with most of the things you say. Especially your method of studying Scripture in light of Scripture since Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Interestingly enough, this is partially how I came back to the Catholic church by setting aside the commentary (I mostly read John MacArthur, Matthew Henry, Wycliffe, and E.W. Bullinger) and started reading the Bible on its own.
Reading the Bible and studying the development of Christianity. While I’m a Catholic according to the Roman Rite, I’m growing more and more interested in the Byzantine Rite.
I actually agree with most of the things you say. Especially your method of studying Scripture in light of Scripture since Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Interestingly enough, this is partially how I came back to the Catholic church by setting aside the commentary (I mostly read John MacArthur, Matthew Henry, Wycliffe, and E.W. Bullinger) and started reading the Bible on its own.
Reading the Bible and studying the development of Christianity. While I’m a Catholic according to the Roman Rite, I’m growing more and more interested in the Byzantine Rite.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Hey, Tanner, where does it say in Genesis that the earth is a sphere and and spins as the clay to the seal?
B
BibleAnswer
Guest
My only source is also the bible. And upon further study, one finds connections that are just to prevailant to ignore.
Understanding:
upon comparing parables and words and metaphors, a student of the bible, will begin to discern very important information. Allow me to explain some metaphors, that you yourself will come to understand, once you know how to look.
Jeruselem in the bible is a metaphore for the church.
Judah is also a reference to church,
Ephraim is also a reference to church,
High places is a metaphore for church.
Church itself is a metaphore for the children of God.
Bablyon is a reference to Satan in the bible.
The King of bablyon, is a reference to Satan.
The Mountains is a reference to THE TRUE CHURCH, THE SPIRITUAL CHURCH.
Notice the bible does not discern between what church is what. The bible simply tells us about chruch, any church, and the true church, the one church, the spiritual church.
When I read the bible, and it says, to flee Jeruselem, and run for the Mountains, this is telling me to flee church, to head for the true church, which is spiritual, which is the Word of God, which is the bible, which is a person having a personal relationship with Christ.
When it says the armies of babylon surrounded Jeruselem, and the mountains surrounded the armies, this is a metaphore saying that Satan, which is babylon, has surrounded and destroyed the church which is Jeruselem. Satan is now in the church. The physical church is not spiritual, it is brick and mortar, and men are fallable, and so Satan has every right to compromise that church and rule there. Yet the true church, the spiritual church will always prevail against the forces of satan, Satan cannot corrupt the spiritual church of Christ, and we should flee Jeruselem and head for the Mountain, that which is in the Bible.
I know out of hand many people will tell me that this is refering to the destruction of Jeruselem in 70 Ad. Indeed it is. However like we learned, every single verse is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning. On earth, Jeruselem was destroyed. Spiritually, is represents all those who believe in Christ, and spiritually this says babylon is with in its midst. Satan is within that church. They are the Tares…
This is how we understand the parable of the Wheat and Tares. The wheat are the true believers, the tares are those who beleive they are saved, yet are not. This is from Gods Word.
If the bible tells us that the church has been comprimised by Satan, and that in a church, any church, you have Wheat and tares, that is both true believers and non believers, and yet nobody can know because only God can discern a heart, and that God will be the one to gather up his Wheat, that is the true believers, and burn the chaff, that is the Tares, the unbelievers, then this as clear as day tells me, that in church, in any church, satan has infiltrated it, that satan is working in it, that satans purpose is to decieve.
If the bible tells me there is Wheat and Tares in a church, then this tells me that a tare could be teaching me incorrect information. No matter how much a person loves God, if they are a Tare, they are a Tare. Nothing else to. and sense we cannot discern a heart, sense we cannot know that this priest or that individual is teaching me from the bible yet he is a TAre, then that TARE, wil NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER, be able to understand the bible. NEVER. NEVER EVER.
To flee the church and head to the true spiritual church, which is not brick and morter, yet spiritual and being in communion with God personally, This means that we are to search the bible dillegently, OURSELVES. The idea that 2000 years of church teachings by wise men who loved the lord much more than me, is invalid. Because this is rationalizing the bible. When the bible has one clear message.
Remember judgment begins in the house of God, Well this is indeed a reference to church. In a church there is wheat and tares, then the tares inside that church, will have the harshest punishment from God imaginalbe, because in there conciet, decided to not head the Word, and instead decided that they know better than God.
This is my own personal pilgrimage, I was unhappy with what I was being taught, I felt like there was a deeper meaning, and indeed there is.
God hates the high places, this language is used throughout the bible. A high place is a church that does not teach the bible and only the bible, but instead continues to practice sacrifice and image worship, traditional ceremonies that have been made irrelevent by the grace of Christ dieng for our sin.
God hates those places, and in every instance in the bible where one is mentioned, God destoryes it. Wow how can this be, How can God forsake an assembly of his children, who only seek to worship HIm, how could it be that his Judgment fell upon them. Because they were not obediant to the word of God.
Simple
Please cross reference these words in your bible, and a plethera of information will open up to you all throught the bible. Once you learn a spiritual truth, you cannot unlearn it, once i learned that i am commanded to flee for the mountains, that is leave my church, and instead embrace the bible for my own study then that is what i will do.
I have come to this understanding after many a many months of study. If i were to decide that, “whatever, church is still fun and i have friends there, and my parents go, and my girlfriend goes, and the church is still faithful to christ, why should i leave.”
Because I had to decide, because i had to make a choice once i learned this fact. I decided to obey God. Now i am an outcast, and lost my girl, but that is ok with me because the ultimate goal for any human being, is salvation.
Understanding:
upon comparing parables and words and metaphors, a student of the bible, will begin to discern very important information. Allow me to explain some metaphors, that you yourself will come to understand, once you know how to look.
Jeruselem in the bible is a metaphore for the church.
Judah is also a reference to church,
Ephraim is also a reference to church,
High places is a metaphore for church.
Church itself is a metaphore for the children of God.
Bablyon is a reference to Satan in the bible.
The King of bablyon, is a reference to Satan.
The Mountains is a reference to THE TRUE CHURCH, THE SPIRITUAL CHURCH.
Notice the bible does not discern between what church is what. The bible simply tells us about chruch, any church, and the true church, the one church, the spiritual church.
When I read the bible, and it says, to flee Jeruselem, and run for the Mountains, this is telling me to flee church, to head for the true church, which is spiritual, which is the Word of God, which is the bible, which is a person having a personal relationship with Christ.
When it says the armies of babylon surrounded Jeruselem, and the mountains surrounded the armies, this is a metaphore saying that Satan, which is babylon, has surrounded and destroyed the church which is Jeruselem. Satan is now in the church. The physical church is not spiritual, it is brick and mortar, and men are fallable, and so Satan has every right to compromise that church and rule there. Yet the true church, the spiritual church will always prevail against the forces of satan, Satan cannot corrupt the spiritual church of Christ, and we should flee Jeruselem and head for the Mountain, that which is in the Bible.
I know out of hand many people will tell me that this is refering to the destruction of Jeruselem in 70 Ad. Indeed it is. However like we learned, every single verse is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning. On earth, Jeruselem was destroyed. Spiritually, is represents all those who believe in Christ, and spiritually this says babylon is with in its midst. Satan is within that church. They are the Tares…
This is how we understand the parable of the Wheat and Tares. The wheat are the true believers, the tares are those who beleive they are saved, yet are not. This is from Gods Word.
If the bible tells us that the church has been comprimised by Satan, and that in a church, any church, you have Wheat and tares, that is both true believers and non believers, and yet nobody can know because only God can discern a heart, and that God will be the one to gather up his Wheat, that is the true believers, and burn the chaff, that is the Tares, the unbelievers, then this as clear as day tells me, that in church, in any church, satan has infiltrated it, that satan is working in it, that satans purpose is to decieve.
If the bible tells me there is Wheat and Tares in a church, then this tells me that a tare could be teaching me incorrect information. No matter how much a person loves God, if they are a Tare, they are a Tare. Nothing else to. and sense we cannot discern a heart, sense we cannot know that this priest or that individual is teaching me from the bible yet he is a TAre, then that TARE, wil NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER, be able to understand the bible. NEVER. NEVER EVER.
To flee the church and head to the true spiritual church, which is not brick and morter, yet spiritual and being in communion with God personally, This means that we are to search the bible dillegently, OURSELVES. The idea that 2000 years of church teachings by wise men who loved the lord much more than me, is invalid. Because this is rationalizing the bible. When the bible has one clear message.
Remember judgment begins in the house of God, Well this is indeed a reference to church. In a church there is wheat and tares, then the tares inside that church, will have the harshest punishment from God imaginalbe, because in there conciet, decided to not head the Word, and instead decided that they know better than God.
This is my own personal pilgrimage, I was unhappy with what I was being taught, I felt like there was a deeper meaning, and indeed there is.
God hates the high places, this language is used throughout the bible. A high place is a church that does not teach the bible and only the bible, but instead continues to practice sacrifice and image worship, traditional ceremonies that have been made irrelevent by the grace of Christ dieng for our sin.
God hates those places, and in every instance in the bible where one is mentioned, God destoryes it. Wow how can this be, How can God forsake an assembly of his children, who only seek to worship HIm, how could it be that his Judgment fell upon them. Because they were not obediant to the word of God.
Simple
Please cross reference these words in your bible, and a plethera of information will open up to you all throught the bible. Once you learn a spiritual truth, you cannot unlearn it, once i learned that i am commanded to flee for the mountains, that is leave my church, and instead embrace the bible for my own study then that is what i will do.
I have come to this understanding after many a many months of study. If i were to decide that, “whatever, church is still fun and i have friends there, and my parents go, and my girlfriend goes, and the church is still faithful to christ, why should i leave.”
Because I had to decide, because i had to make a choice once i learned this fact. I decided to obey God. Now i am an outcast, and lost my girl, but that is ok with me because the ultimate goal for any human being, is salvation.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
T
Tanner9188
Guest
**Hello;
Thanks for bringing this error to my attention LXX is 70 to begin with; what I should have said is the Jewish Council at Jamnia excluded from the Old Testament all but the writings Jews and Protestants accept today. In other words the completed and accepted Jewish canon rejected the Deuterocanonical books.
Anyway, it is obvious why the 2nd canon was added in haste.
God bless!
Tanner**
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Again, thanks, but again, this is news to me. Do you have any credible sources you can share that support your claim?
T
Tanner9188
Guest
**Job 38:14a (KJV-authorized) “It is turned as clay to the seal;”
Isaiah 40:22 (KJV-authorized) “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
**Their is controversy over the word “chuwg”; there is no specific Hebrew word for Sphere.
Job 26:7 “He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.” **
T
Tanner9188
Guest
No; nothing you would consider credible; it would not be a Catholic source; therefore it would be considered invalid…right?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Tanner? We were talking about Genesis, remember?
I said that if you’re going to dismiss the deutero-canonicals because they’re not accurate historically or geographically, then you ought to dismiss Genesis as well because it’s not accurate scientifically–unless, of course, you believe the earth is flat and has a dome covering it.
So, which is it–do you believe the earth is flat, or are you going to dismiss Genesis because the earth is a sphere and Genesis is not correct? You can’t have it both ways.
And, if you accept Genesis, even if it’s not scientifically accurate, then you have no argument for dismissing the deutero-canonicals!
- Status