Addressing absurdity of divorced & remarried couples receiving communion

[IanM]

As far as the number of annulments goes, in a society where Married at first sight is a thing, is it any wonder!

I would suggest that “Married at first sight” actually indicates problems in the Church re its marriage preparation courses. Not really correct to blame the laity who simply do not understand what they are undertaking.

 

[OddBird]

Refraining from Eucharist is a virtue in some cases. When done in reverence, it is a petition for your situation.

I refrain. As I said, I am not in full communion with the Church yet.

Sacrifices of sex is also a virtue.

Sex is a red herring here. The problem is not abstinence per se. The problem is what he hears when I say I want to abstain until convalidation: he hears that we weren’t really married during all that time, that our beautiful wedding ceremony, filled with prayer and song and love, was a lie, and that since we’ve just been playing pretend. This is what he struggles with, not abstinence itself. And to be honest, I understand and I feel for him.

 

[pnewton]

You don’t know how our marriage works or the dynamics of our couple

If I have learned nothing here over the years, it is that this is not the best place for specific advice. There are too many who simply do not get that a layman’s understanding, or even an educated understanding, simply cannot act as a substitute for the relationship one has with Jesus, and with His Church. It is necessary for the annulment process to be grueling, to be sure, in most cases. Likewise, Pope Francis was trying to establish a pastoral process that is just as in depth, not some short cut, but still maintains what is acceptable withing Church doctrine, if not its past discipline.

 

[OddBird]

Thank you ! And yes, I know. I wasn’t looking for advice, just feeling like speaking out for all those couples who are in invalid marriages and whom people deem unworthy of receiving the Eucharist without taking into account mitigating circumstances. I guess I was just trying to explain that life stories are not linear, and that sometimes you end up unexpectedly in a place where a little pastoral understanding goes a long way

 

[JulianN]

The problem is what he hears when I say I want to abstain until convalidation: he hears that we weren’t really married during all that time, that our beautiful wedding ceremony, filled with prayer and song and love, was a lie, and that since we’ve just been playing pretend. This is what he struggles with, not abstinence itself. And to be honest, I understand and I feel for him.

Have you talked to a priest about a radical sanation? I can understand your husband’s feelings on this, and perhaps that would be the more palatable solution.

 

[pnewton]

I guess I was just trying to explain that life stories are not linear, and that sometimes you end up unexpectedly in a place where a little pastoral understanding goes a long way

As Pope Francis put it:

The divorced who have entered a new union, for example, can find themselves in a variety of situations, which should not be pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for a suitable personal and pastoral discernment.

I think too many got hung up on reading commentary on Amoris Laetitia without realizing the document is a wonderful combination of re-affirming Church teaching and loving each person as Jesus would.

 

[OddBird]

Yes, I have, but it doesn’t change how he feels about the whole thing (and frankly there are days where I feel tempted to have a radical sanation done without telling him about it). But that would come after my confirmation, and that is by far the biggest hurdle to overcome.

 

[Weserthy]

Wow, so if your partner does not accept to live like brother and sisters, then you are allowed to have sex outside marriage!!! This surely sounds like a extremely weak reason. Crazy times we are living…

I guess that “With God, some things are still impossible”.

The problem you rightly point out with this line of thinking, is that an objective act of evil (adultery) is being encouraged in order to obtain a good end (keeping the marriage together). The Church has always taught that the end does not necessarily justify the means, and that you cannot commit an act of evil to achieve a good end.

 

[jack63]

Thanks for posting this @OddBird. When I started a thread about Amoris Laetitia earlier this also came up. These internal forums are more likely to be used in a situation like yours when there has been no divorce and remarriage…in other words where divorce and remarriage simply isn’t the issue. The internal forums are just there to provide a pastoral solution to bring people to Jesus and Catholicism. Good Luck and God Bless on your journey!

 

[Jesuslover]

I totally agree. It seems like people think annulment is just divorce, Catholic style. Either the annulment tribunals are corrupt, or there are a heck of a lot of people with invalid marriages out there.

 

[InThePew]

Making sex outside the sacrament of marriage is as a sin as the things that I said above! It is not because one of the partners wants to sin that the other gain a free pass to it!

I never said it wasn’t but there’s a huge difference between theory and reality when it comes to this issue - which is what AL was intended to try and address. In a nutshell it comes done to the difference between objective sin and subjective culpability. The act itself is morally wrong but the subjective culpability of a particular individual may be reduced by their circumstances.

An example: a husband and wife are seasonal workers and this is their sole source of income; if she gets pregnant she can’t travel and thus can’t work and the family’s income for that year halves. Her husband insists they have sex. Sometimes he uses contraception but isn’t all that reliable. Separation is not an option; besides the shame and disgrace that this would bring upon her, they need both incomes to raise the children.

I’m not about to tell her that using contraception is “okay” in this situation but what I would say is that her level of culpability is substantially reduced because she is in a situation where she isn’t able to make a free choice. The act of using contraception remains objectively sinful but it’s doubtful (at best) whether she has in fact committed any sin here and certainly not a serious one.

 

[Ammi]

Sex is a red herring here. The problem is not abstinence per se. The problem is what he hears when I say I want to abstain until convalidation: he hears that we weren’t really married during all that time, that our beautiful wedding ceremony, filled with prayer and song and love, was a lie, and that since we’ve just been playing pretend. This is what he struggles with, not abstinence itself. And to be honest, I understand and I feel for him.

Maybe you could convince him that your love for him was real, but that your respect for God was hindered by your leaving the Church?

Stress that you loved him then, and wanted marriage, but you were rejecting the faith.

You can love both, but perhaps you cant have both. Receiving Eucharist will not help your situation, if you arent changing your situation.

Again, if he loves you, how can he leave you because you want to convalidate the marriage in accordance with your faith?

I understand that “canonical form” is a difficult concept. Especially when Protestants can marry wherever they want, and convert without a convalidation. But it’s because you left the Church for a time. Even entering a ministerial office in a church separated from the Church. I’m not judging, but just saying that it has consequences.

 

[Ammi]

That sounds like rape to me.

Wouldnt you want to have a talk with him?

 

[InThePew]

Pretty much. Sure I’d like to have a talk with him and sure miracles do happen and all of that (the Feast of the Conversion of St Paul was only the other day after all) but I seriously doubt talking to him (even if he agreed to talk to me) would make a blind bit of difference.

 

[Ammi]

Pretty much. Sure I’d like to have a talk with him and sure miracles do happen and all of that (the Feast of the Conversion of St Paul was only the other day after all) but I seriously doubt talking to him (even if he agreed to talk to me) would make a blind bit of difference.

Well all you can do is talk, ecourage, and admonish, and tell him he should not receive Eucharist. If he is a sincere Catholic, he would stop that behavior. If he forced himself in a situation like that (immoral sex) then maybe encourage her to press charges. That’s an unlawful and viscious man.

Btw, remember Joseph and Mary traveled while full term

 

[InThePew]

Well all you can do is talk and admonish, and tell him he should not receive Eucharist. If he is a sincere Catholic, he would stop that behavior. If he forced himself in a situation like that (immoral sex) then maybe encourage her to press charges. That’s an unlawful and viscious man.

I have no idea if he receives communion or not - being seasonal workers they’re transients rather than regular parishioners. As far as pressing charges goes, that’s a non starter - she wouldn’t want to and, even if she did, it’d break up the family and be financially devastating (I suspect she’d also have a hard time doing so in the country they’re from).

Btw, remember Joseph and Mary traveled while full term

Mary didn’t have to contend with airlines and immigration authorities!

 

[Ammi]

So better to permit an abusive rapist continue, than protect her? Doesnt the Church have resources for abused wives?

If this man would do this (force immoral sex, in spite of priestly admonishment), he is not good to be with her.

 

[Emeraldlady]

imo:

Wow, so if your partner does not accept to live like brother and sisters, then you are allowed to have sex outside marriage!!! This surely sounds like a extremely weak reason. Crazy times we are living…

I guess that “With God, some things are still impossible”.

Why isn’t it possible that this pastoral forum is the gift from God that many, faithfully patient Catholics have waited for?

 

[InThePew]

So better to permit an abusive rapist continue, than protect her? Doesnt the Church have resources for abused wives?

In a large developed country like the United States, sure there are facilities to help such women (if they in fact want/need to be helped). Where this couple are from is pretty much the polar opposite of somewhere like the United States. It’s a small country with minimal social support.

If this man would do this (force immoral sex, in spite of priestly admonishment), he is not good to be with her.

Well I’m sure he provides for her and the family, and does other things a husband should do but he just happens to have a very different mindset when it comes to conjugal relations - one which, sad to say, isn’t all that uncommon. that doesn’t of course make what he’s doing right but it does go some way towards showing just how complicated situations like this (and other pastoral situations involving similar issues) can be. If there were easy answers to these problems (like priests telling them not to do it) then they wouldn’t be problems! Sadly, human relationships are messy at the best of times and it’s just about trying to figuring out best to deal with each problem.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Ammi, how long have you been married? You have an unrealistic view of how easy a sexless marriage ought to be in my opinion. I married a good man, Catholic and who was willing to do pretty much anything for me and yet when it came to periodic abstinence, it was a difficult thing to navigate. We were both abstinent before marriage and you could say we’d had practice at abstinence. It’s a different kettle of fish within marriage where proximity and intimacy have to be managed. We are well into our marriage now (32 years) and it has taken lots of work to have a chaste holy marriage. That experience gives me an understanding of what it would be like to have an enforced sexless marriage. I don’t know what experience of marriage you have that makes you think it is so black and white?