Addressing the non-denominational viewpoint

[ESMDHokie77]

Recently, in a discussion with my non-Catholic Christian girlfriend, I am temporarily stumped on how to address the following situation…

-she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)
-she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

Can anyone lend some help on pointing me in the right direction in where to talk further discussions? I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love.

Regards,
Phil

 

[jmcrae]

Recently, in a discussion with my non-Catholic Christian girlfriend, I am temporarily stumped on how to address the following situation…

-she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)

How does she explain the fact that the Apostles had the authority to tell the Judaizers not to require members of their congregations to become circumcised, or to be required to keep kosher? (Acts 15)

If the Apostles had that authority, where did it come from? (Jesus; Matthew 18:18 - whatever you bind is bound; whatever you loose is released) And if it came from Jesus, surely Jesus intended for His Church to have authority in the world. Does it make sense that Jesus only intended for that authority to last until the death of Peter?

-she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

There is a sense in which that is true; however, clearly they are not always part of the organization that Christ set up for us to be members of.

I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love.

Are you dating for marriage, or just for companionship? If you are dating for marriage, may I recommend highly that you find a girl who already shares your values - your life will be made a great deal easier - enough difficulties come of their own accord; there is no sense in inviting extra ones in.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I continue to date her because I have strong feelings for her and I feel I could marry her. We’re both 23.

I was lukewarm in my faith when we started dating, (last year), and I have grown stronger due to her questions and inquiries, at times upsetting to both of us.

Sincerely,
Phil

 

[JRKH]

I have argued this point often with non-catholics with some success in that, you can fairly quickly reach a point where they cannot give a good answer from scripture…

Her viewpoint is very common among the non-denominational crowd…they hold to the “invisible church” concept which has a number of holes in it.

First of all, since I assume she is believes in Sola Scriptura, ask her to show you in the bible where it says that the Church Christ founded was not intended to be visible, authoritative and unified…There si no such passage…
Then start looking through the Bible at all the places where untiy is either called for, or actually demonstrated.
There is a logic to the institutional development of the Church that is realy quite logical and biblically based.
Start with Mt 18:15-18. When you get to verse 17 where it says “tell it to the church and if he refuese to listen even to the church treat him as a heathen and a tax collector”

Some of our Protestant brothers will want to tell us that the “Church” not an “institution” but the entire body of believers. They will point to the passage following this one where Jesus says, “where two or three are gathered in my name I will be there with them” as proof. If this were so then “Taking it to the Church” would be completed in step two where “Two or three witnesses” are called upon and no third step would be required. But Christ did establish a third step, telling His disciples to submit such obstinate disputes to “The Church’ for resolution and that they must accept The Church’s judgment as final.
So how does Christ define His Church?

The great example in the Bible of the idea of Authority and taking it to the Church is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts (Acts 15:1-29). If the Church was a “body of believers” and not an “institution” then why did Paul feel the need to bring the issue of circumcision to the Apostles (Church Leadership). It was because Jesus told them to “Tell it to the Church”.

Once at the Council, things did not run all that smoothly, there was much debate until Peter Spoke and quieted it. Even once the decision had been made in Council it is logical to assume that there were varying degrees of “acceptance” among the individuals who debated so forcefully earlier. This would only be human nature. However All of them accepted the decision of the Council and submitted their own misgivings to the authority of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In modern times we could equate the disagreement between the Gentiles and the Judaizers to those who say disagree on the real presence in the Eucharist. Both can’t be right and the Bible says they should talk it out, perhaps have a council and resolve the amtter…but the SS protestant system doesn’t work like that. In the SS system each group has it’s own church and neither will submit to the other.

There is simply nothing in the bible that will support her position. At least nothing with the clarity of the passages above…

All that said, you are going to have to be very patient with her because all of her faith tradition will fight against seeing this…

 

[JRKH]

As to her second comment -
“… as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.”

This is certainly correct to an extent…But ask her if all who cry 'Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom (Mt 7:21-29)?
Since not all who cry Lord Lord will enter the kingdom, there has to be more than just “accepting Christ as…savior”.

It also includes accepting all that Christ teaches - to obey his commandments and doing “the Will of the Father…” Most important it involves putting these things into practice and seeking to become perfected in Christ, for that is what we are called to be, for Christ says that we must be ferfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:48)

So - while she has the beginnings of right thinking, there is much more to it as well.

Peace
James

 

[po18guy]

she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)

Have her read Acts 15, the first Church council. This was the genesis of the institutional Church. Jesus founded a Church in Matthew 16:18, not a body of believers. Jesus gave final authority to His Church in Matthew 18:15-18, not to a body of believers. Paul teaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). Neither Jesus, the Apostles, Paul, nor the bible teach an invisible body of believers. They all teach an authoritative Church.

she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

Have her read Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, and John 3:3-5. To be a Christian, one must be water baptized. Those who are not baptized are only admirers. John the Baptist also taught that Jesus would come and Baptize with the Holy Spirit. Have her read Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 10:47, and Acts 11:16. No Christian Baptism, no Holy Spirit, no membership in Christ’s Body.

Can anyone lend some help on pointing me in the right direction in where to talk further discussions? I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love. Phil

Please emphasize the fact that Jesus founded a Church and gave it all authority. What He did not do was to send forth a disparate and disagreeing “body of believers” with bibles. That is counter-biblical and has produced only the fruit of division.

As for yourself, there are three excellent publications that would be of great help: Catholicism for Dummies and The Essential Catholic Survival Guide, and Search and Rescue. All are simply excellent and will help you to learn and defend your faith, present the historical truth to her, and effectively invite her into the One True Church…

Has she attended mass with you? An excellent way to show her that the mass not only focuses on Jesus Christ, it actually is Jesus Christ, in the Holy Eucharist. It will place her in His presence.

Have you prayed for her? The best place to pray for her is in our Lord’s presence at Adoration. Prayer before our Lord is especially powerful. It will benefit both you and her.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[JRKH]

Lots of good consistant and biblical advice so far, but be rpepared to here some rather interesting comebacks. For instance, in response to Mt 18:17 she may say that “the church” is the local body of believers…To which you might respond with other questions…to help her logic this through. For instance…
“What happens when one ‘local body of believers’ comes to one conclusion and another ‘local body’ of believers comes to the opposite conclusion? Shouldn’t these opposing views be resolved?”
This segues into Acts 15 once again and the “universal” body of beleivers. She will likely bounce back and forth between how “church” is the universal body of believers, but “church” (when convenient for her) will refer only to the local community…hopefully gentle discussion will help her see the illogic of her view.

You might also approach it by asking - How many Christian denominations were there in Antioch, or Pillipia, or Jerusalem etc…Which denomination was Paul writing to in these cities? Obviously we don’t think in terms of denominations in the early church - they were of one body of believers.
So - Where does the concept of denominationalism come from then? It comes from pride. It comes from an unwillingness for those in disagreement to seek reconciliation with each other through humble and prayerful dialogue in seeking God’s Will and Truth.

Peace
James

 

[benidict]

I continue to date her because I have strong feelings for her and I feel I could marry her. We’re both 23.

I was lukewarm in my faith when we started dating, (last year), and I have grown stronger due to her questions and inquiries, at times upsetting to both of us.

Sincerely,
Phil

My dear brother. those feelings are simply a chemical reaction and a desire to mate…after that what then? If you think that the questions and the hurt feelings are going to go away, just because there is a wedding band on the finger, then please think again. Speaking from experience, it does not get better, it gets worse after the wedding. especially when children are thrown into the mix. I would simply like to advise you to take a hard look at the reallity of the situation. Relationships are hard enough without something as important as religion which is a huge defining charachteristic of who we are, becoming a stumbling block. I will sincerely pray for you. Peace
P.S. I am glad you are growing in your faith though.

 

[manualman]

I can relate to the OP directly. I was a totally lukewarm catholic my freshman year of college until that summer I got nuts over an evangelical summer job coworker who challenged me to re-examine a lot of things and (unknowingly) prompted me to get involved in a campus christian fellowship group.

She likely already understands and agrees that Jesus granted a special authority to the apostles and gave them an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a unique and special way to be the authors of the New Testament scriptures.

What she may not have noticed was that all the way back to the beginning, the apostles ALREADY started forming a formal church structure in obedience to Jesus instructions and clear desire that the Church be ONE. Some things to look for in Acts:

1. What did the apostles do after Judas killed himself? They chose and ordained a replacement to fill the apostolic office of Judas. This is a CLEAR biblical precedent that while the 12 apostles as eye witnesses held a special role in writing down general revelation into Scripture, their role as leadership and authority has its roots in the OFFICE, not the person. Thus when the office holder dies, he is replaced and the role carries on in authority.
2. Jesus himself after the Ascension set the precedent that his Great Commission to spread the Gospel beyond the 12 tribes of Israel meant that there would be more than merely 12 holders of the apostolic office when he made Saul into St. Paul and granted him the status of apostle. But even Paul had to go before the apostles and be accepted. Even when Jesus himself knocks you down and gives you a mission, the biblical precedent is that you do so in UNION with the apostolic church.
3. The Church followed up that precedent by ordained a bishop to hold apostolic office in every new city in which the church became established.
4. When the Ethiopean Eunich read the Scriptures and heard about Jesus and wanted to believe, mere scrolls weren’t enough. God specifically sent him someone from the Church to explain the Scriptures and to baptize him.

When you read Acts in historical context, you see the infant Church. The forms are present even though some of the words we use today for convenience are not yet coined (words like ecumenical council, ordination, priest, sacrament, etc).

As for the girl, pray hard and look ahead. Marriage is NOT fundamentally about how fuzzy and gooey you feel inside. It is about total giving of self to the other. I found that in the long term it could only be a crippled marriage at best if my intended spouse stubbornly rejected significant elements of the catholic faith, especially once kids came along. How’s she going to deal with kids being baptized, going to confession, receiving the Eucharist… What kind of union is it in which each spouse goes to a different church? I made the painful decision to break up with a great girl. It hurt at the time, but ended up being one of the wisest things I’ve done in my life.

I also have no doubt that you’ll reject my above advice, at least at first. Just keep it in the back of your mind for a while. In the meantime, you’re going to get challenged on the basis of a LOT of catholic beliefs. You need the book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism.” But first you need to know two things about the book. The author effectively labels all conservative evangelical / non-denom christians “fundamenatlists.” It’s not meant as a slur, he just couldnt’ stand writing ‘conservative evangelical non-denominational christian’ 8 times per page! Thick skin it.

Second, feel free to skip and skim some of the earlier chapters on specific anti-catholic ministries. You don’t need to know the groups so much as the ARGUMENTS that they commonly put forth. I’ve found that this book directly addressed 90% of the criticisms I heard about catholicism in my evangelical group (and revealed them as uninformed and/or mean spirited attacks). It’s that good.

 

[po18guy]

So - Where does the concept of denominationalism come from then? It comes from pride. It comes from an unwillingness for those in disagreement to seek reconciliation with each other through humble and prayerful dialogue in seeking God’s Will and Truth. Peace James

It is that ever present flame that burns within us - the ego. It cannot be extinguished - only controlled. It serves others when it is small, but destroys us when it grows out of control.

“Surely you will not die! You will be like gods, knowing good and evil”

The ego.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Recently, in a discussion with my non-Catholic Christian girlfriend, I am temporarily stumped on how to address the following situation…

-she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)
-she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

Can anyone lend some help on pointing me in the right direction in where to talk further discussions? I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love.

Regards,
Phil

Hi Phil;

As for the first issue, I suggest asking your girlfriend to explain how Christ established an invisible worldwide community of believers without an institutional Church? Was it just some global game of “You tell two friends… who tell two friends… and so on?” How does the “Church” operate even at a local level without some form of institution? And how did the bible come together without a group of believers sitting down and figuring it out in a very, ahem, institutional way?

As for the second issue, the statement raises more issues than it resolves. How does one “accept” Jesus Christ? Baptism? Keeping the Commandments? Loving your neighbor? And if two “christians” disagree about what christians are supposed to believe, accept, etc., and both are relying on the bible for their understanding, where do they go to resolve their dispute? To an invisible church?

Peace,
Robert

 

[po18guy]

I liken the Church structure to a business in one regard. Nearly every business has a “mission statement” posted for all to see. However, is each employee supposed to read the mission and then do whatever pleases them, or is there someone in charge to see that the mission is accomplished?

 

[Julian0404]

Recently, in a discussion with my non-Catholic Christian girlfriend, I am temporarily stumped on how to address the following situation…

-she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)
-she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

Can anyone lend some help on pointing me in the right direction in where to talk further discussions? I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love.

Regards,
Phil

If she believes that the Bible is the TRUE and INSPIRED words of GOD, then she must change her “thinking” after reading JESUS own words in Matthew Chapter 16. If she reads Matthew 16 and translates “…upon this rock I will build MY church…” into - a community of believers - then she is being disengenuous and “adding to the words of Christ”.

She is correct about the term Christian applying to anyone and everyone who believes in JESUS CHRIST as their savior, but that does not guarantee salvation. No “term” or “title” is associated with salvation. JESUS alone will judge our hearts and souls, not what we say or what we declared. JESUS HIMSELF advised the people of HIS day to “do what the Pharisee’s and Sadducces teach, but not what they do”. A title is very weak to hold onto in hopes of salvation.

 

[Sufjon]

Recently, in a discussion with my non-Catholic Christian girlfriend, I am temporarily stumped on how to address the following situation…

-she believes that Christ established a community of believers. (Not an institutional church)
-she believes that as long as people accept Christ as their savior they are Christians.

Can anyone lend some help on pointing me in the right direction in where to talk further discussions? I have no intention of just ending our relationship based on these differences, and I want to speak with command of the issues and with compassion and love.

Regards,
Phil

Hi ESMDHokie77: Perhaps the answer to your dilemma is in the last three words of your question. Compassion and love. You found each other and you have that. You love each other and you both love God. What other commandment did Jesus give? I would intuit that you have a lot at stake in risking the whole thing over the particulars of how one worships vs the other.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GaryTaylor]

I was lukewarm in my faith when we started dating, (last year), and I have grown stronger due to her questions and inquiries, at times upsetting to both of us.

Sincerely,
Phil

Great response’s, This statement I find facinating. You should listen to your inner heart more attentively. I also don’t believe with salvation of the soul there’s a compromise. Sometimes in life you just have to make a hard choice and stick with it. The trials will always come along and the only thing that matters in the end is you belief in Jesus Christ and the path He has already placed you on. Stay on the path always, all else is secondary. And I do mean all.

 

[JRKH]

I liken the Church structure to a business in one regard. Nearly every business has a “mission statement” posted for all to see. However, is each employee supposed to read the mission and then do whatever pleases them, or is there someone in charge to see that the mission is accomplished?

This is pretty good…Though I have a different take on the structure…

Rather than seeing the church structure as a “business” (something protestants are likely to twist) I compare it more to governmental structure…
I also describe it as a storehouse/ clearinghouse/ dissemination point for incoming ideas and issues and outgoing decistions and teaching. It’s much more of a “service organization” than a business.

Too often protestants have this view of the Church as “Top Down” - Pope says it and we do it type structure…When in actuality it is VERY bottom up in its approach and functioning. But they can’t seem to get past the “pomp and ceremony” etc…

Peace
James

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Yes, there are many good responses on this thread, thanks for all the feedback!

GaryTaylor and benidict, isn’t it a good idea to prevent grievous hurt later in life to face these things right now while I’m still young?
Besides, CAF isn’t the only resource I consult on this matter, and the advice I seek from those I know from my parish and other catholics is along the same lines, yet not so dismissive as saying, “don’t bother trying to inform her, just go find a Catholic girl.” Yeah that would be easier, but life isn’t always easy.

my patron saint is Saint George, and I’ll defend my faith and argue my cause with her. If there is a point in the future where it becomes impossible then I’ll throw in the towel, but I have not yet begun to fight!
:knight2:

God Bless,
Phil

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, there are many good responses on this thread, thanks for all the feedback!

GaryTaylor and benidict, isn’t it a good idea to prevent grievous hurt later in life to face these things right now while I’m still young?
Besides, CAF isn’t the only resource I consult on this matter, and the advice I seek from those I know from my parish and other catholics is along the same lines, yet not so dismissive as saying, “don’t bother trying to inform her, just go find a Catholic girl.” Yeah that would be easier, but life isn’t always easy.

No one is saying don’t inform her - just don’t expect her to become miraculously transformed into the devoted Catholic mother of your children that you will need as your help-mate in the trials of this life.

my patron saint is Saint George, and I’ll defend my faith and argue my cause with her. If there is a point in the future where it becomes impossible then I’ll throw in the towel, but I have not yet begun to fight!

There will be enemies enough for you to fight in the neighborhood and at your children’s school - you’ll need a partner who is on your side and supporting your point of view with your children, to teach them rightly - not someone who is contradicting you every step of the way, and doing everything possible to separate them from the Church right in your own house.

 

[po18guy]

Too often protestants have this view of the Church as “Top Down” - Pope says it and we do it type structure…When in actuality it is VERY bottom up in its approach and functioning. But they can’t seem to get past the “pomp and ceremony” etc…
Peace James

The title of the Pope: “Servant of the servants of Christ”.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, there are many good responses on this thread, thanks for all the feedback!

GaryTaylor and benidict, isn’t it a good idea to prevent grievous hurt later in life to face these things right now while I’m still young?
Besides, CAF isn’t the only resource I consult on this matter, and the advice I seek from those I know from my parish and other catholics is along the same lines, yet not so dismissive as saying, “don’t bother trying to inform her, just go find a Catholic girl.” Yeah that would be easier, but life isn’t always easy.

my patron saint is Saint George, and I’ll defend my faith and argue my cause with her. If there is a point in the future where it becomes impossible then I’ll throw in the towel, but I have not yet begun to fight!
:knight2:

God Bless,
Phil

The purpose of your life might be to draw her to unity in faith. However, mixed marriages are very difficult to sustain. In my case, my wife was Catholic and I was not affiliated - or even baptized, even though I believed in God. Thus, there was not nearly the degree of conflict. I had no disagreeing beliefs, but rather had to take some time to come to grips with the totality of God’s revealed truth. To marry in the hope that someone will convert later is not realistic. If you are sure that this is “the one”, then work hard as you can to bring her into the Church before you marry. If she comes into the Church even though you do not marry, God will always remember the good that you did.