Adoration and knitting?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CrunchyCathMom
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks everyone. I will check out the other discussion. I did call the parish priest and I would suggest that anyone else that has this question do the same.
 
Yes this was a question not that long ago on here. I see nothing wrong with knitting or crocheting while at Adoration - I do both and I could very easily do them while I’m praying at Adoration provided it is something I don’t have to count or stop to check the directions. At home it is very easy to do my crafts and include by prayers. I would suggest that if you plan on doing something like that and there is someone there that you ask if it would bother them if you did your knitting. I’m alone at Adoration about 90% of the time so I would not be disturbing anyone. I can’t see to read the books provided at the chapel so I bring my own prayers printed in large print with me and I would think my turning the pages is more distracting than if I were knitting.
 
I guess I’ll have to be the odd man out here. I think any activity other than a prayerful attentiveness is totally inappropriate.

Our pastor recently told us he thinks many of us have forgotten how to pray and possibly never knew the blessedness of silent reflection. There are so many ways to pray! I always ask the Spirit to be with me and intercede for me before I go into the Adoration Chapel. I can say that request is most usually honored by the Lord because there are many times when I pray, I know the prayer did not come from me. I have even known the experience of using words I don’t normally use.

I think prayer is really a discipline unless you are a saint who has been given the greatest of graces. For those who think the knitting is meditative, may I suggest practicing Lectio Divina - I promise once you get the hang of it, you’ll never want to knit during Adoration again! 🙂

Then, too, we have a responsibility to others in not creating a misconception. What would the average person think if they saw someone knitting in Adoration? It might suggest that this prayer time before the Blessed Sacrament isn’t really all that important…or would it imply boredom even? To me, knitting is a sort of recreation.
 
I love the idea of knitting prayer shawls during adoration. What a beautiful gift to give to someone who is in need of extra prayers.
 
CrunchyCathMom said:
I was having a conversation with a friend about Adoration. I usually bring my rosary and a holy book to Adoration. She said that she didn’t know what to do during that hour and was advised by another friend to bring in her knitting. I am not judging this advice. It just got me thinking about whether or not knitting (or anything really) was ok during Adoration.

So what is the general consensus on this?
Click to expand...
This is not really a fair question for many reasons.

a. It’s objectively immoral to ask others to judge the spirituality and the spiritual judgment of another person.

b. It’s objectively immoral to respond.

From a theological point of view, the question falls under the authority of Ascetical and Mystical Theologians to answer in a knowledgeable fashion. The answer is both practical and spiritual.

For some people, knitting gives them something to do with their hands. There are people who can carry on a conversation while knitting, watch a movie, attend to a child, meditate, pray, even plan dinner.

There are other people who have focusing problems. Such persons should not try to knit or do anything else when praying, having a conversation, watching a movie or attending to a child, because they don’t have the neuropsychological tools necessary to separate motor activity from cognitive activity. Either they knit or they pray, but they can’t do both.

In either case, there is no moral judgment involved, because knitting is a neutral activity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
CrunchyCathMom said:
I was having a conversation with a friend about Adoration. I usually bring my rosary and a holy book to Adoration. She said that she didn’t know what to do during that hour and was advised by another friend to bring in her knitting. I am not judging this advice. It just got me thinking about whether or not knitting (or anything really) was ok during Adoration.

So what is the general consensus on this?
Click to expand...
I have read a sermon by St. John Vianney where he talks about doing other things during prayer as bad.

One comes to the tabernacle, to spend time with the Lord. We rarely even give him a thought during the other times of the day and when we get the chance, we try to occupy ourselves with other things too. Is it that difficult to just give ourselves in prayer without distractions.

I think therefore while it is not immoral, it is just bad practice. We are there in adoration to spend time in prayer with God. Give our full mind to praise him, worship him, and tell our needs to him. Trying to knit while doing that won’t allow us to do that. So your friend needs to figure out how to pray. Trying to knit during the time will only hide the deeper problem in not knowing how to pray or the importance of it.
 
JReducation said:
This is not really a fair question for many reasons.

a. It’s objectively immoral to ask others to judge the spirituality and the spiritual judgment of another person.

b. It’s objectively immoral to respond.

From a theological point of view, the question falls under the authority of Ascetical and Mystical Theologians to answer in a knowledgeable fashion. The answer is both practical and spiritual.

For some people, knitting gives them something to do with their hands. There are people who can carry on a conversation while knitting, watch a movie, attend to a child, meditate, pray, even plan dinner.

There are other people who have focusing problems. Such persons should not try to knit or do anything else when praying, having a conversation, watching a movie or attending to a child, because they don’t have the neuropsychological tools necessary to separate motor activity from cognitive activity. Either they knit or they pray, but they can’t do both.

In either case, there is no moral judgment involved, because knitting is a neutral activity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to come off on the wrong side Brother, but it is this form of advice that I really find problematic and different from pre-Vatican II or the “good ol days” of the Church that most trads here refer to (I am not a trad).

The priests of those days would prudently advise against knitting during adoration or prayer. Of course, none of them will say its intrinsically immoral (maybe the occasional priest might). They will just point out that it shows a tendency to not want to give ones full mind to prayer. It can lead to a bad prayer life in the long run. Those concerns are indeed valid ones. In other words, the advise is more prudent rather than based on “is it moral?”.

But in your reply, you play up the neutral stance and as a result, it is very possible that one who reads your reply will do whatever they please during prayer and completely fall in to bad prayer practice. This is not to say that you were imprudent but you just did not consider the prudent angle to all of this at all. Rather than give advise, the priest today tries to let the faithful decide. As anyone who has been a parent and has kids will tell you, that does not work. A priest is a father figure and needs to guide the faithful and needs to give advise on best course to follow. Not just say “you decide”.

Again, I don’t mean to come off on the wrong side but just thought its important that I bring this up. I am sure many traditionalist would agree that this is indeed one of the issues they have with the current Church in the West.

P.S. St. John Vianney (according to the book “Sermons from the Cure of Ars”) does say that practice of doing other work during prayer should be avoided.
 
Eufrosnia said:
I don’t mean to come off on the wrong side Brother, but it is this form of advice that I really find problematic and different from pre-Vatican II or the “good ol days” of the Church that most trads here refer to (I am not a trad).

The priests of those days would prudently advise against knitting during adoration or prayer. Of course, none of them will say its intrinsically immoral (maybe the occasional priest might). They will just point out that it shows a tendency to not want to give ones full mind to prayer. It can lead to a bad prayer life in the long run. Those concerns are indeed valid ones. In other words, the advise is more prudent rather than based on “is it moral?”.

[snip for space]

I am sure many traditionalist would agree that this is indeed one of the issues they have with the current Church in the West.

P.S. St. John Vianney (according to the book “Sermons from the Cure of Ars”) does say that practice of doing other work during prayer should be avoided.
Click to expand...
First, please notice how I conclude my post.

For some people, knitting gives them something to do with their hands. There are people who can carry on a conversation while knitting, watch a movie, attend to a child, meditate, pray, even plan dinner.

There are other people who have focusing problems. Such persons should not try to knit or do anything else when praying, having a conversation, watching a movie or attending to a child, because they don’t have the neuropsychological tools necessary to separate motor activity from cognitive activity. Either they knit or they pray, but they can’t do both.

Back in the good old days, people did not understand how the central nervous system works. They couldn’t tell the difference between cognitive activity, which is prayer and motor activity, which is knitting.

In adoration, there is no motor planning or psychomotor activity as there is at mass. Therefore, unless a person has poor neurosensory discrimination, he can do something like knit and adore the Blessed Sacrament at the same time.

If you look at my red response. A person who’s cognitive functions are distracted by his motor functions, should not knit when trying to pray.

We’re acting as if this has never been done before, which is not the case. For this reason, I said that the answer to this question is best left to those whose area of expertise is ascetical and mystical theology. Why? Because theologians who specialize in ascetical and mystical theology are a) experts in prayer, b) knowledgeable of the Church’s spiritual tradition, c) knowledgeable of spiritual theology and moral theology, and d) knowledgeable of human physiology and neuro-anatomy. All of this is involved in to get a doctorate in Ascetical and Mystical Theology.

It really concerns me when one tries to give responses to questions that require a certain area of expertise and either a) does not acknowledge that one does not have the expertise or b) presumes that there is no need for it. Not every question about the faith has a one size fits all answer. We must be very careful not to try to create one size fits all answers, because it can make people feel very guilty or do very irresponsible things, depending on the answer.

It’s also important to remember that God’s ego is not as fragile as our own. God delights in his creation. He is not offended by that which is neutral

St. John Vianney gave this advice and it was very good for St. John Vianney. We must also remember that St. John Vianney was dyslexic and did not know it. In those days, no one knew about dyslexia. We know it today from his writings and from what others wrote about him. For John, doing anything other than sitting quietly in the presence of God would make prayer impossible. It was his dyslexia that almost stopped his ordination. Because of it, he was sent to Ars. They thought he was not very bright. In fact, he just has a neuropsychological defecit that had nothing to do with intelligence, but did interfere with cognitive processes, unless one knew how to get around it.

It’s like the person who is born deaf or blind. To this this is the natural state of affairs. To St. John Vianney, the inability to stay focus when walking and chewing gum was a natural state of affair. He never thought that this was atypical. He probably would have suggested against walking and chewing gum. I’m using this as an example. They didn’t have chewing gum during his time, that I know of.

Another example the we find in the history of the Spiritual Masters is St. Teresa of Avila eating apples during prayer. She always had the need to munch on something. When she was not doing so, she cold not concentrate. Long after her death, we find out that she had serious stomach problems that led to stomach cancer, which killed her. At the time, they knew nothing of such things. Imagine of her confessors and spiritual directors had told her that eating an apple during prayer was wrong. The woman may have been more sick than she was and dead much earlier.

In her mind and that of those around her, she was engaging in a very neutral act that did not distract her from prayer. No one commented on the apple until later years when her spirituality was studied by scholars. Actually, it was missed until the late 1950s when a Carmelite scholar found a small note that Teresa passed on to a sister requesting that an apple be brought to her at chapel during her hour of adoration. Teresa’s companions mentioned her munching fruit all the time, but no one mentioned adoration until this note was found.

Please be careful when giving advice that involves spiritual and moral matters and if one is not an expert, add a disclaimer. It can be as dangerous as dispensing medical advice via the internet.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
First, please notice how I conclude my post.

For some people, knitting gives them something to do with their hands. There are people who can carry on a conversation while knitting, watch a movie, attend to a child, meditate, pray, even plan dinner.

There are other people who have focusing problems. Such persons should not try to knit or do anything else when praying, having a conversation, watching a movie or attending to a child, because they don’t have the neuropsychological tools necessary to separate motor activity from cognitive activity. Either they knit or they pray, but they can’t do both.

Back in the good old days, people did not understand how the central nervous system works. They couldn’t tell the difference between cognitive activity, which is prayer and motor activity, which is knitting.

In adoration, there is no motor planning or psychomotor activity as there is at mass. Therefore, unless a person has poor neurosensory discrimination, he can do something like knit and adore the Blessed Sacrament at the same time.
Click to expand...
Brother,

As I said before, I did not mean to offend or upset and I only wanted to raise a point. Now if I may overstay the opportunity and clarify what I said.

As I stated at the end of my own reply, St. John Vianney, a parish priests, instructed the faithful the same way I did. Therefore, I do not think I was wrong in giving the spiritual advise I gave to that person. The position of St. John Vianny, also seems logical to me as someone who has studied psychology

Now you do bring up the issue of those in the past perhaps being unaware of the modern developments of science. The issue here is that modern development of science does not say that men and women cannot spend one hour in prayer without doing anything else. The question here is not whether one could pray while they do other things but whether it is appropriate.

Anyway, lets put this Science aside for a bit. When discussing the matters of prudence, it generally does not mean that it applies to everyone anyway. So if I say that it is imprudent for an unmarried man and a woman to sleep in the same bed, this did not follow because all men and women if sleeping in the same bed will have sex. Rather, it was a decision made from the state of an average person.

In the same way, for an average person, adoration, which is a time you come spend time with Christ, shouldn’t be about knitting. It should be a time where they fully give their hearts and minds to Christ. If they want, they could read some Scripture or other spiritually edifying material. When all the days are spent engaged in secular tasks (again speaking from the average person view), it is better to do something for ones spirit in this time rather than try to knit something together. When you advise that knitting might be ok, I see that as an opportunity you lost to encourage the person to do something actually spiritually edifying or enhancing the experience of adoration.

So while I understand that science has developed, I do not see how it has any bearing on this issue. Unless science has shown that most people must knit in order to pray well, I cannot in anyway see how the modern position is scientific.

About the chewing gum, I am not sure what entirely you mean. Are you saying that it is ok to chew gum during adoration? Because this too seems like it would be something that is not supported by any science. The decision lies entirely in evaluating what Adoration is for.

As for St. Theresa, the issue seems to be an emergency because you say she might have died if not for an Apple because she was ill. Well in such a case, surely, its ok. If someone has a heart attack during adoration, surely one will call the ambulance and maybe a man might even give mouth to mouth to a woman without any issue. But prudence applies to the general case and is based on the general population. Not specifics. People can always act and always will act in these emergency scenarios to not violate morals rather than prudence.

So the comparison between St. Theresa’s Apple and knitting in this case feels invalid. St. Theresa is not a lay person. If she spent day in the adoration chapel, perhaps she might have to have all the meals at the adoration chapel. But for a lay person who spends a hour in adoration, knitting is surely not the way to go? Don’t you think the two are different? Don’t you think to say that “its ok to knit” is a missed opportunity when one could have instead said “read scripture, read a spiritually edifying text, pray the rosary”?
 
You folks are going to do what you want to do anyway. Go for it.

I don’t want to hear CAF asking religious superiors and bishops why deacons, priests and brothers do not last on CAF. My response is going to be simple. "You have 30,000 experts. You don’t need us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Knitting is not necessarily “work” or an activity. I am not a knitter, but I know people who do knit, and it can be an aid to contemplation. It is usualy a peaceful and relaxing time. If - I - tried to knit, it would be distracting, because I cannot do it. It is not for me. Others can lose themselves in it, which is good for prayer.

When I adore, and at other times during prayer, I will tick… tap my foot rapidly or my fingers, or play with something in my pocket. If I was a child they would probably call this hyperactive. This is an absent minded activity and a sure sign that I am beginning to get lost in prayer. I will usually stop this as I get further into prayer.

Or previous associate pastor would write his sermons at adoration. Our school develpment director will prepare her work at adoration.

So, I am not willing to tell God what is acceptable in his presence.
I would not discourage someone from knitting while at adoration, that’s all. They should just come and adore.
 
JReducation said:
You folks are going to do what you want to do anyway. Go for it.

I don’t want to hear CAF asking religious superiors and bishops why deacons, priests and brothers do not last on CAF. My response is going to be simple. “You have 30,000 experts. You don’t need us.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Click to expand...
I, at least, need you, Brother. 9 times out of 10 you are the true source of knowledge here (especially lately). Our 30,000 “experts” here have a long way to go to match a Franciscan and a theologian. 🙂
 
I remember an old joke about two jesuit novices going to their superior and asking if they could smoke while they prayed. The punchline goes that while the superior said that they can not smoke while they pray, they can pray while they smoke.
 
JReducation said:
You folks are going to do what you want to do anyway. Go for it.

I don’t want to hear CAF asking religious superiors and bishops why deacons, priests and brothers do not last on CAF. My response is going to be simple. "You have 30,000 experts. You don’t need us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Click to expand...
Ok I think I upset you Brother. I apologize. I did not mean to overstep.

I am simply saying that there is a difference in advise that you will hear today as opposed to back in the day. I feel that the past advise was more logical and felt more geared to do as much as you can to actively form a good connection with Christ. Perhaps the culture itself helped as well in order to arrive at such decisions faster and consistently.

I am not saying that you or any other priest feels or actively works against it today. Its just that perhaps with the good intent based on the idea that we must “reduce the things to a minimum or they won’t do anything”, we sometimes lose the chance to give better spiritual advise which we would have otherwise given.

Like your reply that knitting is not immoral is definitely not ill or wrong advise. It just feels incomplete. Or more accurately, it just feels like a missed opportunity that you could have used to direct the lay persons toward more spiritually edifying alternatives (reading Scripture/writings of Church fathers/Saints/Praying the Rosary) and perhaps as an opportunity to stressing the beauty and important opportunity present at adoration so that the person can best appreciate it.

Again, I apologize if I came across in a wrong manner. I have read many of your replies on different threads and found it very informative and at times even shaped my thinking after meditating on things you have said. So I by no means would like to see you leave as a result of my previous replies 😦
 
Timothysis said:
I, at least, need you, Brother. 9 times out of 10 you are the true source of knowledge here (especially lately). Our 30,000 “experts” here have a long way to go to match a Franciscan and a theologian. 🙂
Click to expand...
Ditto.
 
JReducation said:
You folks are going to do what you want to do anyway. Go for it.

I don’t want to hear CAF asking religious superiors and bishops why deacons, priests and brothers do not last on CAF. My response is going to be simple. "You have 30,000 experts. You don’t need us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Click to expand...
I sure hope you aren’t leaving us. You are such a blessing to us. We can’t afford to lose you. You have more theological knowledge in your little toe nail than any of us have in our whole body.

In thread after thread after thread I’ve seen people argue with you. I can’t say I’d blame you if you threw in the towel. You have remained charitable in the face of it all. I know you aren’t one to brag about yourself, but if only these people would take note of your credentials they would maybe prayerfully consider what you have to offer here.

Please don’t leave!!
Always, your little Sis
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top