Adoration of Communion Wafers...

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jmm08:
Yes. Talk briefly with your sponsor and ask your sponsor to pray for you. But if they are argumentative, resist arguing. Just say you aren’t sure.
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In nomine Jesu I offer you peace jmm08,

My sponsor is my Uncle-in-law but he was out with a bad cold this time so I didn’t talk with anyone. I did enjoy our class though and that in-and-of-itself kinda made me feel better, if you know what I mean. Sometimes I wish RCIA was twice a week.
I look forward to hearing back from you. Especially regarding my posts #20 and #21 under Non-Catholic Religions / “Jack T. Chick: Anti Catholicism at it’s worst”
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I am aware that the best non-Catholic Christians spend time with Jesus each day. This is often called a “Quiet Time” among evangelicals. To me, Eucharistic Adoration is really great. And I find it easier for me to have a more proper frame of mind in the beautiful setting of the National Shrine. I can’t get there too often, because going and coming back makes it an all day thing.

I read them and I think you’ve done a really nice job putting together a lot of personal experiences which has lead you to where you are now. I don’t refute your sincerity or conviction one bit but if I had to offer criticism I would say that it was overly sentimental. Now, don’t take that the wrong way because I can be overly sentimental too but I don’t think sentimental is necessarily always reasonable. To offer sentimental argument attempts to create sympathies between the reader and the subjects within the reading which create attachments. Attachments are natural but they are not always rational.

If I had to express my concerns here I would say that Idolatry is the placement of any limited thought or object in place of or over God. Do I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ Body and Blood? I think I can honestly say that I do but would I say that Jesus manifested so uniquely and profoundly that the object of its manifestation should require adoration? This is where I would draw a line of hedging into Idolatry, at least with my understanding of what Idolatry means. My understanding of Sacramentality is that God can and does manifest within physical objects and events now and throughout history but I am concerned with the Catholic practice of elevating the objects of manifestation as God and not merely a means of bringing God’s presence to us. Does anyone understand what I am saying here?

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
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chrisb:
If I had to express my concerns here I would say that Idolatry is the placement of any limited thought or object in place of or over God. Do I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ Body and Blood? I think I can honestly say that I do but would I say that Jesus manifested so uniquely and profoundly that the object of its manifestation should require adoration? This is where I would draw a line of hedging into Idolatry, at least with my understanding of what Idolatry means. My understanding of Sacramentality is that God can and does manifest within physical objects and events now and throughout history but I am concerned with the Catholic practice of elevating the objects of manifestation as God and not merely a means of bringing God’s presence to us. Does anyone understand what I am saying here?

Peace, Love and Blessings,
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I bolded your two main points. Catholics would say that we do not adore “the object of manifestation” – we adore Christ himself.

Maybe it takes an ex-Protestant to be sensitive to the nuance of your second point. Again, for us, the Host is not an ‘object of manifestation’ which we treat as God. Nor is it a means of bringing God’s presence to us. God Himself is present in the consecrated Host.

I observe, even in your reservations, a profound respect for the Sacrament as Catholics understand it. You are already more than half way there. Don’t rush it. Let the Boss take his time with you.
 
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chrisb:
Do I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ Body and Blood?
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That’s an incomplete question. The true question is “Do you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.”

My guess is no, because I don’t think you would have any problem adoring a manifestation of Christ’s Divinity. In fact, if you can accept that the Divinity of the Son is truly present in that little “wafer”, how can you treat it any other way but with adoration?

I wish you much peace on your spiritual journey, and I am glad that you are actively trying to understand rather than just following along.
 
Chrisb,

Once the host is consecrated by the priest, it is changed into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It is no longer a “wafer” as you call it, but Christ Himself. Do not any longer call it a wafer. It is an insult to Divinity. It is a permanent change, not temporary. It is Christ, it is the Lord! That’s why a person must receive the Eucharist with whole reverence and adoration. And kneel before the King of Kings in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament.

If you are still in doubt, do you doubt the words of our Lord himself wheh He said; “This is my Body… this is my Blood…”

Pray to the Holy Spirit for enlightenment.

Pio
 
Chris, I would like to humbly offer my opinion on this. I am a cradle Catholic who drifted away from the Church for a while in my 20’s. When I came back I too was a little uncomfortable with adoration (and I had been taken occassionally to adoration as a child). While intellectually I believed that the Eucharist is Christ, I didn’t get the feelings of awe I expected to have. After some years of this the Holy Spirit finally sent me the light that the feelings of awe come after the belief. In other words, God doesn’t dazzle or bully us into belief. It’s a grace that can be obtained through prayer and sacrifice. My particular sacrifice was spending time in adoration when I felt like there were other things I could have been doing.

Your intellect can lead you to belief–on the other hand feelings are often unreliable.

You may also want to investigate Eucharistic miracles. There are some with information on the internet. A priest once said to me “We believe, but it’s nice to have miracles to help us along!”

I’ll pray for you!
 
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chrisb:
In nomine I offer you peace jrabs,

Perhaps you didn’t notice the first part of my post. I am currently in RCIA. Right now! Today! So technically I’m a catechumen but I have been doing fine going through the RCIA up until a week or so ago when I learned about this and saw footage on it on EWTN. I found it a little scary for him. I understand that Transubstaniation means that the wafer becomes the body and the blood of Jesus and I even understand the Real Presence but I really though of it as Jesus descending among us during the Eucharist and enhabiting the bread and wine. Perhaps I’m just not ready for all this but it still feels idolatrous to adorate even the Body of Jesus or his Blood. I’m confused. Please give me some guidance here.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
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And peace to you. He does not merely inhabit the bread and wine, the bread and wine become Him, His Body and Blood, His Soul and Divinity. The species become Him so radically that we refer to their appearance as bread and wine as ***accidentals ***after the Consecration. Retain the image of Him coming down (when the priest elevates the Host and Chalice and the bells ring, I get a chill thinking,“He’s there, on the altar, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, He’s right there!”), but understand that It’s all Him.
 
I am concerned with the Catholic practice of elevating the objects of manifestation as God and not merely a means of bringing God’s presence to us.
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Your rationalizing this like a gnostic/protestant would. To adore the Eucharist is to contemplate mystery of the incarnation. God became man, which means that the infinite took on flesh and became one of us. If the baby Christ was in your arms right now, could you tell by his physical properties that he is God and man? Probably not, but you as a Christian would still be obliged to worship the baby Jesus. The two realities, Jesus as God and man, are inseparable. Just like in the Eucharist.

The bread is transformed into the substance of his body and divinity. His body and divinity can not be separated. They remain united in the Eucharist. This is why we should adore his body as we would 2000 years ago. The only difference is he appears to us as bread rather than his body.
 
I’ve started participating in eucharistic adoration this week. The thought does cross my mind about the idolarty. I do believe in the real presence but, like yourself, I was raised Southern Baptist. It’s a hard thing to get passed. I decided that the only thing to do was to start the adoration. It’s one thing to believe something, and it’s another thing to intellectually understand it. I believe in the real presence, but the understanding part is hard. I’m reading a book called *God is Near Us *by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. It is a series of short articles he’s written about the real presence. Between being in the presence and reading the book, I’m starting to get my hands around the concept. I have faith that what the Church teaches is true, so I believe it. I know in time the intellectual understanding will come in time, but until then, I’ll have to go strictly on faith.

As you can see with myself and others, you’re not alone in your questioning. Have faith, and eventually your eyes will open. Mine are starting to.
 
This is a major difference between Catholic “Communion” and protestant “communion.”

When Catholics receive or adore the Blessed Sacrament, we know that we are receiving or adoring Jesus Christ, Body-Blood-Soul-and-Divinity! The bread and wine no longer exist; only the appearance of bread and wine remains. The substance has been transformed ~

The Host is now Truly Jesus Christ, worthy of all the love, adoration, and thankfulness a human soul can muster.

In the Episcopalian Church, for example, they believe in consubstantiation ~ that Jesus comes down and inhabits or
co-exists with the bread. This was never the teaching of the Catholic Church, the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers, etc. It’s a manmade doctrine, which mimicks the Catholic Sacrament. The Catholic Church has always taught, from the lips of Christ Himself, that the bread and wine truly become His Body and Blood.

Before the Blessed Mother appeared to the three children of Fatima in 1917, God sent an angel to the children several times, having them adore and receive Holy Communion.

The angel taught a prayer, called the Pardon Prayer:**“My God, I believe, I adore, I love, and I trust Thee. And I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not love, and do not trust Thee.” **

This became a favorite devotion. I sometimes say this during the elevation at Mass, while passing a Catholic Church, or while spending time in adoration.

Just as the angels, shepherds, and wisemen sought Him and adored Him in the form of a helpless baby, we adore Christ (Whose glory and splendor are hidden under the appearance of bread and wine.)

Hope this helps. God Bless.

PS ~ Isn’t it neat that Christ revealed Himself to the world as a human infant in the town of Bethlehem ~ which means “House of Bread.” Almost seems like He was trying to tell us something! 🙂
 
:In the Episcopalian Church, for example, they believe in consubstantiation ~ that Jesus comes down and inhabits or
co-exists with the bread.:

That is not true. Episcopalians do not have a fixed doctrine on the subject other than that Christ is truly present and received. Some believe essentially what Catholics and Orthodox believe, others have more of a “spiritual presence” view. Probably some believe in consubstantiation, but it certainly isn’t a universal or official view.

I don’t think that the line between consubstantiation and transubstantiation is as firm as you appear to think, and I think the Real Presence is more of a mystery than you are willing to admit. But this is probably not the place to debate that.

Your basic point is correct–that there are various Protestant doctrines of the Real Presence that teach that Christ is truly received in the Eucharist, but do not allow for the adoration of the species of bread and wine. (I recognize of course that you aren’t adoring the species per se–but you are looking at the species and you believe that what you see and perceive with the senses as bread and wine is in fact Christ. That’s what I’m trying to say.) Like chrisb, I have some emotional repulsion to Eucharistic adoration as practiced by Catholics. I adore Christ in the Host during the liturgy itself, and since I fully believe that Christ is present in the elements I don’t believe it to be idolatry. But when the Host is reserved outside the Eucharistic liturgy I’ve had difficulty looking at it and really believing that it was Christ. I don’t know if that’s for theological reasons (since my view is somewhat vaguer than that prevalent on this board) or simply because of my Protestant upbringing.

Basically, though, I come down with the Anglo-Catholic theologian Edward Pusey. Wherever Christ is present, there he is to be adored. If Christ is present in the Eucharist, then he is to be adored there. (That is why I don’t find the Catholic denunication of consubstantiation very convincing. The point is that Christ is present–in what sense the elements are still bread and wine is not really the issue.)

In Christ,

Edwin
 
I have some emotional repulsion to Eucharistic adoration as practiced by Catholics.
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i have even more of an emotional repulsion when i see anglican/episcopalian women presiding over the eucharist or openly gay bishops and same sex union blessings.
 
Try reading 1 Cor 11; the whole chapter. The reverence St.Paul expresses there may help.
In the Eucharistic miracles mentioned above, when the host became human flesh in the priest’s hands, it was always heart muscle.
Makes sense to me, but then, I’m a cradle Catholic.
 
Contarini said:
:In the Episcopalian Church, for example, they believe in consubstantiation ~ that Jesus comes down and inhabits or
co-exists with the bread.:

That is not true. Episcopalians do not have a fixed doctrine on the subject other than that Christ is truly present and received. Some believe essentially what Catholics and Orthodox believe, others have more of a “spiritual presence” view. Probably some believe in consubstantiation, but it certainly isn’t a universal or official view.

I don’t think that the line between consubstantiation and transubstantiation is as firm as you appear to think, and I think the Real Presence is more of a mystery than you are willing to admit. But this is probably not the place to debate that.

Your basic point is correct–that there are various Protestant doctrines of the Real Presence that teach that Christ is truly received in the Eucharist, but do not allow for the adoration of the species of bread and wine. (I recognize of course that you aren’t adoring the species per se–but you are looking at the species and you believe that what you see and perceive with the senses as bread and wine is in fact Christ. That’s what I’m trying to say.) Like chrisb, I have some emotional repulsion to Eucharistic adoration as practiced by Catholics. I adore Christ in the Host during the liturgy itself, and since I fully believe that Christ is present in the elements I don’t believe it to be idolatry. But when the Host is reserved outside the Eucharistic liturgy I’ve had difficulty looking at it and really believing that it was Christ. I don’t know if that’s for theological reasons (since my view is somewhat vaguer than that prevalent on this board) or simply because of my Protestant upbringing.

Basically, though, I come down with the Anglo-Catholic theologian Edward Pusey. Wherever Christ is present, there he is to be adored. If Christ is present in the Eucharist, then he is to be adored there. (That is why I don’t find the Catholic denunication of consubstantiation very convincing. The point is that Christ is present–in what sense the elements are still bread and wine is not really the issue.)

In Christ,

Edwin
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In nomine Jesu I offer you peace Edwin,

Yes, this is exactly where I am today. Exactly! I’m guessing you are Anglican?

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
Just remember that the Eucharist IS Jesus! If you do not have a problem adoring Christ, then you should eventually be comfortable adoring Christ in the Eucharist. It is not merely empty flesh and blood of our Lord, but His living flesh and blood. It is truely His body, blood, soul, and divinity.
 
General Reminder:

This discussion in danger of straying from its original topic. Please keep it to the original topic under discussion. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
 
That is not true. Episcopalians do not have a fixed doctrine on the subject other than that Christ is truly present and received. Some believe essentially what Catholics and Orthodox believe, others have more of a “spiritual presence” view. Probably some believe in consubstantiation, but it certainly isn’t a universal or official view.
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Edwin,

Whether you hold that position true or not, if you look back at the original Anglican belief (I’m speaking of the Church of England back then), it was perfectly derived or originated from the Catholic Church. That is, they believe what the Catholic Church believe. That was before they separated from Rome. I pray that they comeback to that same belief.
Your basic point is correct–that there are various Protestant doctrines of the Real Presence that teach that Christ is truly received in the Eucharist, but do not allow for the adoration of the species of bread and wine.
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Again, there is only one truth that is to be preached since we are dealing with the revealed truth of Jesus. If Protestants disagree with what has been revealed, then it is not the truth, it becomes subjective. The above statement that you made as “truly received in the Eucharist” is hearsay as regards Protestants belief. Their belief is “cloudy” at its best, unless they also comeback to the orthodox belief.

Pio
 
Basically, though, I come down with the Anglo-Catholic theologian Edward Pusey. Wherever Christ is present, there he is to be adored. If Christ is present in the Eucharist, then he is to be adored there. (That is why I don’t find the Catholic denunication of consubstantiation very convincing. The point is that Christ is present–in what sense the elements are still bread and wine is not really the issue.)
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The condemnation is pointed to the reality of the truth. That their belief makes Christ revealed truth a lie! That’s the main point.

If the Catholic Church just tolerate those flawed doctrines of fellow Christians, then who can preach the real truth?

Again, I understand your position, Edwin. But you can’t hide the fact that there are people who really searches for the ultimate truth and are not just satisfied with “you’re okay, i’m okay” attitude. Chrisb is one of those thousands of people who long to search for the truth, truth which is not subjective but objective. That’s the mark of a serious believer.

Pio
 
In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,

Last night, for whatever reason, I prayed the full rosary for the first time outside of RCIA and it was really edifying. Although I was focused on the Glorious Mysteries I was still, in the back of my mind, thinking on this topic. I didn’t get any real answers but I just wanted people to know that I am open for God to reveal whatever truth he is willing to give. Please don’t fight or argue over this topic, it was never my intention to open up a topic to create a debate.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
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