adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

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dougfreed

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Hi all this came up in another thread unrelated and I don’t want anymore points but would like to know the answers to this one. so I’m starting the thread.
My first take would be no go don’t do it based on scripture this DRB, a Catholic Bible
Exodus 20
1
And the Lord spoke all these words:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Wisdom 13
1
But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman:
2 But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world.
3 With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things.
4 Or if they admired their power, and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they:
5 For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby.
6 But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him.
7 For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen.
**8 **But then again they are not to be pardoned.
9 For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?
**10 **But unhappy are they, and their hope is among the dead, who have called gods the works of the hand of men, gold and silver, the inventions of art, and the resemblances of beasts, or an unprofitable stone the work of an ancient hand.
11 Or if an artist, a carpenter, hath cut down a tree proper for his use in the wood, and skilfully taken off all the bark thereof, and with his art, diligently formeth a vessel profitable for the common uses of life,
12 And useth the chips of his work to dress his meat:
13 And taking what was left thereof, which is good for nothing, being a crooked piece of wood, and full of knots, carveth it diligently when he hath nothing else to do, and by the skill of his art fashioneth it, and maketh it like the image of a man:
14 Or the resemblance of some beast, laying it over with vermilion, and painting it red, and covering every spot that is in it:
**15 **And maketh a convenient dwelling place for it, and setting it in a wall, and fastening it with iron,
16 Providing for it, lest it should fall, knowing that it is unable to help itself: for it is an image, and hath need of help.
17 And then maketh prayer to it, enquiring concerning his substance, and his children, or his marriage. And he is not ashamed to speak to that which hath no life:
18 And for health he maketh supplication to the weak, and for life prayeth to that which is dead, and for help calleth upon that which is unprofitable:
19 And for a good journey he petitioneth him that cannot walk: and for getting, and for working, and for the event of all things he asketh him that is unable to do any thing.

Those were just a couple references in OT
Below is NT references______________________
Matthew 4:9
9
And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.
**10 ** Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written: The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4
5
And the devil led him into a high mountain and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
**6 ** And he said to him: To thee will I give all this power and the glory of them. For to me they are delivered: and to whom I will, I give them.
**7 ** If thou therefore wilt adore before me, all shall be thine.
**8 ** And Jesus answering said to him. It is written: Thou shalt adore the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Colossians 2
17
Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ.
**18 ** Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh.
__
This last one is hard to understand you can go to Biblegateway.com and read it in many other versions
 
And your question is–http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gifWhat???http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif Exactly???http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif
Maybe I am dumb, but I honestly http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gifdon’t know what it is you are trying to discuss here.
Adornment?? As in costly array??http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

Or veneration, as in respect and honor??

What do they have to do with one another? Much less with the varied Scripture passages you have (🙂 kindly) quoted here…http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif
 
the question is weather or not you should or should not venerate, adore, or offer prayer to Mary and or the saints per the scriptures
 
the question is weather or not you should or should not venerate, adore, or offer prayer to Mary and or the saints per the scriptures
You don’t really think that Catholics are worshiping the actual statues, do you? The commandment is against worshiping idols made with hands. It is not the statue itself that is the object of our prayers or worship. It’s made of stone. It is a reminder (just like a picture of one’s family) of someone through whom God worked mighty things, and we might pray that God will bless us with the same Godliness that Mary, Peter, St Francis, etc… were blessed with. It is always and only God Who is worshiped. Worship of anyone other than God Almighty, Blessed Trinity, is soundly condemned by the Catholic Church.

Venerate and adore are not synonymous with worship. The US even has special holidays that get off of work, to “venerate” our veterans and remember those who have died in service to our country. Doesn’t mean we worship them. I adore my children, but I sure don’t worship them! Suppose a man is away on a business trip, and before he goes to bed he kisses a picture of his wife and children. Is that worship?

Pray (in its original definition, read some Shakespeare) simply means ask. We ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us, just like you might ask someone at your church to pray for you.
 
**It just seems that the more the Catholics explain about The Blessed Mother (as she is called), and the saints, and the fact of the matter that we venerate the Blessed Mother, not worship her, the more they ask. You would think they’d of got it by now. 🤷

Revelation 5:8**
 
Do you adore her/them?
You don’t really think that Catholics are worshiping the actual statues, do you? The commandment is against worshiping idols made with hands. It is not the statue itself that is the object of our prayers or worship. It’s made of stone. It is a reminder (just like a picture of one’s family) of someone through whom God worked mighty things, and we might pray that God will bless us with the same Godliness that Mary, Peter, St Francis, etc… were blessed with. It is always and only God Who is worshiped. Worship of anyone other than God Almighty, Blessed Trinity, is soundly condemned by the Catholic Church.

Venerate and adore are not synonymous with worship. The US even has special holidays that get off of work, to “venerate” our veterans and remember those who have died in service to our country. Doesn’t mean we worship them. I adore my children, but I sure don’t worship them! Suppose a man is away on a business trip, and before he goes to bed he kisses a picture of his wife and children. Is that worship?

Pray (in its original definition, read some Shakespeare) simply means ask. We ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us, just like you might ask someone at your church to pray for you.
 
Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly REVELATION 5:8, and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16).
Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father DO NOT UNDERMINE CHRIST’S ROLE AS SOLE MEDIATOR. (1Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us, we follow Paul’s instructions. “I URGE THAT SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERCESSIONS, AND THANKSGIVINGS BE MADE FOR EVERYONE”, For “THIS IS GOOD AND PLEASING TO GOD OUR SAVIOR”. (1Tim. 2:1-4).
The blessed Mother’s prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1-11).
 
Do you adore her/them?
Mary? She is my Blessed Mother, who bore in her womb my Saviour and Brother, Jesus Christ. Shouldn’t I?

Saints? I’m still a relatively new Catholic so I don’t know a whole lot about them, but I have a great deal of admiration for some of them. My patron saint, Cecilia, stood boldly for the faith and was martyred, but not before bringing hundreds to faith in Christ.

St Therese of Lisieux is another whose biography had a mighty impact on me, as well as Blessed Teresa of Calcutta.

I don’t worship any of them, though.
 
Don’t forget Padre Pio who if it wasn’t for him, whose intercession with Jesus Christ, for my benefit, I wouldn’t be the way I am. So, because of who I have become, (an awakening in my faith big time), I owe it all to St. Pio for his intercession through him to Jesus.
See, I believe in not saying the term “born again”, as I did it right the first time. I call it a reawakening in my faith. I was already “born again” at birth, baptized as an infant. It took me all these years to find Jesus again. But he simply found me. In His own words,
"ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE, HAVE FAITH".
 
the question is weather or not you should or should not venerate, adore, or offer prayer to Mary and or the saints per the scriptures
God commanded that a temple be made for him… out of gold - gold cherubim, etc…

it is important to distinguish between the “calf idolatry” and this kind of … gold in the temple thing.

If you are talking about adoration ofthe Blessed Sacrament…

That is not idolizing a created thing… That is worshipping Christ… who really is present in the Eucharist. If you were to spend time There with Him, you would understand… So… are you going to do that soon?? I hope so because it is the … (words fail me!!!) but… well, the greatest experience of life… (which goes without saying). I began to know things about Jesus that i never knew befroe when i began doing that on a regular basis… There is so much more to Jesus than most people who don’t do that can begin to realize… (which again… rather goes without saying…)…
 
First off how does rev 5:8 fit its the end times.
second what does “Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” Say about talking to saints.
Third I agree with you on 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: This actually confirms what I say. In 1Tim. 2:1-4 they’re talking of the Holy Spirit interceding, look back to 1Ti 2:5 to think 1Ti 2:1-4 means anything else would contradict 1Ti 2:5
Fourth how does 2John 1-11, Mary asking Jesus to turn water to wine show use anything but an obedient son with great powers
Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly REVELATION 5:8, and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16).
Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father DO NOT UNDERMINE CHRIST’S ROLE AS SOLE MEDIATOR.
(1Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us, we follow Paul’s instructions. “I URGE THAT SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERCESSIONS, AND THANKSGIVINGS BE MADE FOR EVERYONE”, For “THIS IS GOOD AND PLEASING TO GOD OUR SAVIOR”. (1Tim. 2:1-4).
The blessed Mother’s prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1-11).
 
First off how does rev 5:8 fit its the end times.
Revelation isn’t exclusively “end times.” What John saw in Heaven was what was going on right then.
second what does “Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” Say about talking to saints.
We are to pray for one another, and wouldn’t you rather have those who are closest to God praying for you than someone who might be less than righteous?
Third I agree with you on 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: This actually confirms what I say. In 1Tim. 2:1-4 they’re talking of the Holy Spirit interceding, look back to 1Ti 2:5 to think 1Ti 2:1-4 means anything else would contradict 1Ti 2:5
Fourth how does 2John 1-11, Mary asking Jesus to turn water to wine show use anything but an obedient son with great powers
Whenever you pray for someone, you are acting as an intercessor for them, just as Mary and the Saints do for those who ask them to pray. Mary didn’t ask Jesus to turn water into wine, she just said, “There is no more wine.” I don’t think she knew what He would do, but she knew He could do something! It was because she brought it up that, even though His time had not yet come, He did miraculously keep that wedding party going. She then turned to the waiters and said, “Do whatever He tells you.” I think we can all benefit from following that piece of advice.
 
Mary didn’t ask Jesus to turn water into wine, she just said, “There is no more wine.” I don’t think she knew what He would do, but she knew He could do something! It was because she brought it up that, even though His time had not yet come, He did miraculously keep that wedding party going. She then turned to the waiters and said,** “Do whatever He tells you.”** I think we can all benefit from following that piece of advice.
And what about this ‘whatever’ that He told us: “Honor they father and thy mother”!!!👍 👍
 
Read the begining of this post. What I put there was straight out of a Catholic Bible. In another post a senior member posted saying here is our Bible. I do agree with you Mary was a very SPECIAL part of our Christ she was the Vessel that brought him into this world and raised him until he left. That’s it Thank You GOD for Giving us her for Jesus to be delivered, Dear Lord thank you so much more for giving us your son so we could live.
Same with the saints God used them for his purpose on earth, thank you, we will remember what you did and hopefully learn from you but, you gone now may Dear Lord thank you for your many saints.
Mary? She is my Blessed Mother, who bore in her womb my Saviour and Brother, Jesus Christ. Shouldn’t I?

Saints? I’m still a relatively new Catholic so I don’t know a whole lot about them, but I have a great deal of admiration for some of them. My patron saint, Cecilia, stood boldly for the faith and was martyred, but not before bringing hundreds to faith in Christ.

St Therese of Lisieux is another whose biography had a mighty impact on me, as well as Blessed Teresa of Calcutta.

I don’t worship any of them, though.
 
Did you find Jesus or Rules?
Don’t forget Padre Pio who if it wasn’t for him, whose intercession with Jesus Christ, for my benefit, I wouldn’t be the way I am. So, because of who I have become, (an awakening in my faith big time), I owe it all to St. Pio for his intercession through him to Jesus.
See, I believe in not saying the term “born again”, as I did it right the first time. I call it a reawakening in my faith. I was already “born again” at birth, baptized as an infant. It took me all these years to find Jesus again. But he simply found me. In His own words,
"ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE, HAVE FAITH".
 
dougfreed, have you ever read about any of the apparitions of the Blessed mother? Have you seen the documented cases of these apparitions? Have you read about Guadalupe, Fatima or Lourdes?
 
Did you find Jesus or Rules?
What does this mean? These words were spoken to me directly from Christ himself. And I don’t mean he spoke to me “in the heart”. His voice was very audible, very powerful and very authoritive. So be careful when commenting about these beautiful words that had come from someone much greater than you or I.
 
Do you adore her/them?
[SIGN1]No![/SIGN1]I defy you to provide any authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching that says we do or should.

If you cannot provide it then you need to drop your opposition and deal with things that Catholics really do believe.
 
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dougfreed:
she was the Vessel
A vessel???
A vessel???

:mad: So far tonight, I have held my tongue while one poster referred to a baby as an:( “it”!
And now, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ’s own beloved mother is simply a "vessel??? An :eek: object???http://bestsmileys.com/nono/3.gif

Well, that’s what the world has come to. We are all objects, “its”, things.
A bunch of:eek: fungible parts???:nope:
NOT!!! Not while I** have breath, at least. Not on:knight2: my watch, it isn’t.:byzsoc:
God help us.
God help us all.
 
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