adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

[fbl9]

hi Doug… did Jesus teach: if holy man’s shadow is cast upon a sick person they will be cured??No:then why do we have in the Acts of the Apostle’s people laying in street so they will be cured when St.Peter walks by and his shadow touches them?do you have faith enough that if you were sick and all you needed for a cure was the shadow of a holy man to be cast upon you???St. John 17:22"the glory thou hast given Me i give to them…“17:2”…He may give life"…"

 

[RobHom]

It doesn’t really matter remember “You never seen it I get an F” Ohio

No need to get defensive…

I simply said… I have never seen it. I haven’t. But also, as I said, I would have no problem with it.

 

[RobHom]

RobHom–

Google my username…lol…I guess that I am probably North of you!

God Bless!

You are definitely North of me…be it the beaches of the Panhandle of Florida or Ireland…

 

[RobHom]

I found this…

Bouquet for the Blessed Virgin Mary
The presentation of a special bouquet of flowers at the foot of the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary is an established Catholic tradition. The flowers are presented to the statue as an offering of love for the Mother of God. A shortened version of the Ave Maria is often played or sung at this time. During the presentation, the bride and groom ask Mary in prayer to pray for their marriage, and that their children lead holy and happy lives, as well as any other special intentions.

Flowers are often presented to Mary even at wedding ceremonies where both parties are not Catholic, and although it is not a requirement, all couples are strongly encouraged to continue this beautiful practice. Be sure your florist understands that a separate bouquet needs to be prepared for the presentation to Mary.

stmarysbythesea.net/mycustompage0003.htm

I’d love to blow that off as some strange thing indigenous to the “left coast”…but then that might offend someone…so I won’t.

I guess I should add that I have also been to a wedding or two in other countries as well…Germany for one…and still haven’t seen this. Or maybe I was “oblivious”… I’m thinking its related somewhat to the “order” of the Priest or something. I’ll have to ask our Monsignor about it…

 

[justasking4]

You don’t really think that Catholics are worshiping the actual statues, do you? The commandment is against worshiping idols made with hands. It is not the statue itself that is the object of our prayers or worship. It’s made of stone. It is a reminder (just like a picture of one’s family) of someone through whom God worked mighty things, and we might pray that God will bless us with the same Godliness that Mary, Peter, St Francis, etc… were blessed with. It is always and only God Who is worshiped. Worship of anyone other than God Almighty, Blessed Trinity, is soundly condemned by the Catholic Church.

Venerate and adore are not synonymous with worship. The US even has special holidays that get off of work, to “venerate” our veterans and remember those who have died in service to our country. Doesn’t mean we worship them. I adore my children, but I sure don’t worship them! Suppose a man is away on a business trip, and before he goes to bed he kisses a picture of his wife and children. Is that worship?

Pray (in its original definition, read some Shakespeare) simply means ask. We ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us, just like you might ask someone at your church to pray for you.

Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them?
.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Context, context, context! The making of idols in order to worship that idol is forbidden.

1Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3"You shall have no other gods before Me.

4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (NASB)

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them?

You don’t have any pictures of you or anyone in your family, eh? We don’t worship statues any more than you worship the photographs on the walls of your house.

 

[guanophore]

Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

key words “for yourself” to worship. Worship belongs to God alone, and we are to worship nothing made with hands.

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them?
.

Indeed, they are in heaven, and images are made. We also have the crucifix, though we believe Jesus resurrected body is in heaven. However, we don’t worship any of these things. That would be considered idolatry.

 

[Church_Militant]

Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them? .

Which part of “we do not adore them.” do you not understand Ja4?

If all images are forbidden then you will make a great Taliban because fundamentalist Islam forbids all images.

I’ve answered this already. Go find the link and read it again.

 

[Thing]

dougfreed:

This Definition of venerate in this post by one of you. **Can you show me in your bible of 73 books or mine of 66 books that says you should show any reverence, adornment, prayer **…

4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

The Apostles first thought on witnessing the Transfiguration and apparition of Moses and Elias was to show Christ, Moses, and Elias, reverence and prayer by building tabernacles to them, and to mark and adorn the spot at which it occured.

Jesus Christs and God the Fathers response to St. Peter was not the protestant hardline reprimand - that he was a pagan idol-worshipping anti-christ and that he had better remember Gods Ten Commandments against worshipping false gods if he wanted to remain in the book of life.
Neither Jesus Christ nor God the Father forbid St. Peter building tabernacles to them. Why do you speak for God and say what God did not say?

In fact, neither Jesus Christ nor God the Father passed any comment whatsoever at the thought of building tabernacles to Christ, Moses and Elias, and we don’t even know if the Apostles did build the tabernacles there or not, God merely continued on with the purpose of that visit into the mountains and asked the Apostles to listen to the reason they were in that place.

“…if thou wilt,” asks St. Peter, he wanted to honour [venerate] all three men with tabernacles at that place and he was not forbidden.

 

[Thing]

Originally Posted by justasking4
**Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?**You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them? .

Have you ever taken a photograph?

I look forward to your response…

 

[dougfreed]

The difference between our photo and The Image of all your Saints is we DO NOT PRAY TO/THROUGH THEM. Their is nothing wrong with remembering everybody, its the fact that you think there is power givin to them. The photo goes in an album, box, on a wall, or a folder on computer. Every once in awhile we look and remember the things these people did while on earth, we don’t say hey Uncle Joe can you give a message to God for me.

Have you ever taken a photograph?

I look forward to your response…

 

[LilyM]

The difference between our photo and The Image of all your Saints is we DO NOT PRAY TO/THROUGH THEM. Their is nothing wrong with remembering everybody, its the fact that you think there is power givin to them. The photo goes in an album, box, on a wall, or a folder on computer. Every once in awhile we look and remember the things these people did while on earth, we don’t say hey Uncle Joe can you give a message to God for me.

You’ve obviously never come from a demonstrative Eastern European family as I do - I’ve seen people kiss pictures of, or other objects associated with, their loved ones as if they were kissing the person themselves, and I’m certain they talked to those pictures (and maybe those objects?) as well, in the absence of the real person (although maybe not when other people were around to talk to!)

Sounds like you’ve never spent any length of time in a cemetery either. I have, and have seen people of different religious stripes standing by those headstones and talking a mile a minute to their dearly departed - who they know by God-given instinct can hear them just as well as if they were still on earth.

And why shouldn’t they? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living - Jesus confirmed it when He said the ‘God of the living and not the dead’ was THEIR God. They know what happens on earth - as He confirmed again when He said Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and when He talked to Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. They would hardly be alive if they all of a sudden lost all their senses of sight and hearing and instead were blind and deaf mutes.

By the way, I don’t pray to or through a statue or picture either - I pray to the person portrayed therein - ie to Christ directly if I am before an image of a crucifix or a manger scene, perhaps to Mary if it’s a statue or icon of her.

And it may shock you to know I pray to them even when there aren’t pictures or statues of 'em around, just like I pick up the telephone and talk to my loved ones if they’re far away. THEY seem to hear me just fine, why wouldn’t the dear departed as well?

 

[Thing]

The difference between our photo and The Image of all your Saints is we DO NOT PRAY TO/THROUGH THEM. Their is nothing wrong with remembering everybody, its the fact that you think there is power givin to them. The photo goes in an album, box, on a wall, or a folder on computer. Every once in awhile we look and remember the things these people did while on earth, we don’t say hey Uncle Joe can you give a message to God for me.

You pray because you have a bible and it has taught you to pray always, you pray through the work of that bible. Picking it up and looking at it reminds you of its contents and to be prayerful.

The image of the crucifix, for example, transports the viewer back to the scene of the crucifixion. If you doug opened your eyes and found yourself standing at the foot of the cross, with Christs eyes looking down into your face as He was dying - you might in spite of yourself say a prayer to Him.

The image of the crucifix is historical, it happened, people saw the image of God crucified, He was crucified.
Whether you read your bible, Doug, and call to your mind an image of the crucifixion from the written words or whether you see a visual image of the crucifixion from the written words makes no difference whatsoever. It is the same crucifixion the same image and your response to that crucifixion is the same, perhaps you pray or perhaps you just be still and contemplate the crucifixion.
It would be a poorer world if we wiped from our minds the image of His crucifixion and wiped from our lives every image that served to remind us of His sacrifice.

 

[guanophore]

The difference between our photo and The Image of all your Saints is we DO NOT PRAY TO/THROUGH THEM.

Are you suggesting that we pray through the “image”? If so, then no wonder you are having objections. None of us think the photograph itself has any power.

Their is nothing wrong with remembering everybody, its the fact that you think there is power givin to them.

If you have objections to God giving power to His people, then your arguement is with Him. THe power comes from Him, and gives glory unto Him.

The photo goes in an album, box, on a wall, or a folder on computer. Every once in awhile we look and remember the things these people did while on earth, we don’t say hey Uncle Joe can you give a message to God for me.

Why not? Catholics ask this of those who are close to God,and have lived with their ears pressed against His lips.

Tell me, when you read about the witnesses in Heb. chap.11, how do you imagine that anyone can possibly function as a
“witness” if they are not paying attention?

 

[justasking4]

Church Militant;4232928]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them? .

Church Militant
Which part of “we do not adore them.” do you not understand Ja4?
Lets see if catholics do indeed adore them or worship. The next verse in Exodus 20 is verse 5 which says–you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;

Now we do know there are statues in Catholic churches with kneelers before these images and candles burning in many cases. This certainly is a sign of worship. Secondly there are many hymns and prayers to Mary that certainly exalt her and say things about her that should be said only about God. For example this prayer called The Litany to Mary is something that needs to be looked at carefully.

LITANY OF MARY

Lord, Father of the Mother, hear us
Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear us
Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear us
Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear us
Mother of divine mercy,
Carrier of the Word,
show us your Son
and hear our plea
Delight of the Trinity, pray for us
Immaculate creation of the Lord, pray for us
Above all the angels, pray for us
Child of the eternal Father, pray for us
Handmaiden of the Most high, pray for us
Vessel of innocence, pray for us
Eager anticipation of rebirth, pray for us
Bearer of good fruit, pray for us
Birthplace of God, pray for us
New mother of mankind, pray for us
First temple of the Church, pray for us
Guardian of truth, pray for us
Spouse of love, pray for us
Faithful wife of paternal protection, pray for us
Heart of a holy family, pray for us
Leaven of heavenly food, pray for us
Conduit of pure grace, pray for us
Practice of virtue, pray for us
Finder of the missing, pray for us
Consoler of the wounded, pray for us
Instigator of miracles, pray for us
Companion in the way of Calvary, pray for us
Mourner in the cross, pray for us
Caretaker of the Body of Christ, pray for us
Hope in the resurrection, pray for us
Reunion in the Lord, pray for us
Perfection of the Holy Spirit, pray for us
Queen of the throne of creation, pray for us
Mantle of all the saints, pray for us
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

If all images are forbidden then you will make a great Taliban because fundamentalist Islam forbids all images.

Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

I’ve answered this already. Go find the link and read it again.

 

[justasking4]

Thing;4232984]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4

Do you not believe Mary and certain saints are in heaven and yet images are made of them? .

Thing
Have you ever taken a photograph?

I look forward to your response…

Yes. However, i don’t pray to them nor kneel before a picture of them.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4230787]key words “for yourself” to worship. Worship belongs to God alone, and we are to worship nothing made with hands.

Do you not kneel at times when you say the Hail Mary? Are you not appealing to her for help at the most important time of life i.e. death?
Are there not hymns of praise to her as the following hymn to her demonstrates:

’Tis the month of our Mother
The blessed and beautiful days,
When our lips and our spirits,
are glowing with love and with praise.

Refrain:
All Hail! to thee, dear Mary,
the guardian of our way;
To the fairest of Queens,
Be the fairest of seasons, sweet May.
Oh! what peace to her children,
mid sorrows and trials to know,
that the love of their Mother,
Hath ever a solace for woe.
And, what joy to the erring,
The sinful and sorrowful soul; That a trust in her guidance,
will lead to a glorious goal.
Let us sing then, rejoicing,
that God hath so honored our race,
as to clothe with our nature,
Sweet Mary, the Mother of Grace.

Indeed, they are in heaven, and images are made.

The commandment forbids this–
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Exodus 20:4

We also have the crucifix, though we believe Jesus resurrected body is in heaven. However, we don’t worship any of these things. That would be considered idolatry.

Is kneeling a characteristic of worship?

 

[Thing]

Yes. However, i don’t pray to them nor kneel before a picture of them.

ja4:

Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

This was your post, you told us the making of images was forbidden. Full stop.

You also say that you make images.

Then you say we pray to images. So that is the problem, not the making of images.

I am telling you now, as one who knows, that Catholics do not pray To images, they pray at images to the persons in heaven who are represented in the image.
Have you ever prayed with the bible in front of you. Within the covers of that bible in front of you are pictures drawn in words of the people you are praying to God & Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

Clearly you do not understand adoration. It is idolatrous to adore anyone but the Holy God.

Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

The presence of images does not equate to idolatry, as you seem to think.

However, if it offends you, you need not have any.

 

[guanophore]

Do you not kneel at times when you say the Hail Mary? Are you not appealing to her for help at the most important time of life i.e. death?

Yes. She was present when the Magi came to adore the baby Jesus, and give Him gives. They came from a culture where prostration was used, rather than kneeling. If she was holding the babe in her arms, they were not worshipping her, but Him. She was present.

Are there not hymns of praise to her as the following hymn to her demonstrates:

You have obviously not read much romantic poetry…

The commandment forbids this–
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Exodus 20:4

For the purpose of worship. If it were otherwise, then the Jews broke the commandment making the Ark, and the Serpent:

In Numbers chapter 21, we read that the wandering Israelites continued to complain about their living conditions until the Lord sent “fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died” (v. 7). Acknowledging their sinfulness to Moses they asked the prophet to pray that the Lord “take away the serpents from us.” The Lord told Moses to make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, “and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live” (8). Following the Lord’s directive, Moses made a “serpent of brass, and put in on a pole” and those who “beheld the serpent of brass” lived.

Did God instruct Moses to break His own commandment?

Is kneeling a characteristic of worship?

It could be. There are some cultures that characteristically kneel to worship, such as the Latin Rite. In the East, this posture is not used in worship.

Kneeling in the West is a common act of humility, and was frequently used in secular settings to demonstrate respect for royalty.