adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

[Thing]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Is kneeling a characteristic of worship?

I believe the Japaneese Gesha kneel to make tea.

 

[churchcamefirst]

I believe the Japaneese Gesha kneel to make tea.

:coffeeread:

 

[guanophore]

I believe the Japaneese Gesha kneel to make tea.

In the martial arts, kneeling and bowing to Sensei is customary as a form of respect, humility, willingness to be taught, deference, and all kinds of things none having to do with worship or adoration.

I have great respect for my sensei, and honor him as a father, but I do not worship him, even when I kneel down and touch my forehead to the ground in front of him.

 

[justasking4]

Thing;4233606]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Yes. However, i don’t pray to them nor kneel before a picture of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja4
Is not the making of images forbidden by the 2nd commandment?You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Thing
This was your post, you told us the making of images was forbidden. Full stop.

You also say that you make images.

Then you say we pray to images. So that is the problem, not the making of images.

I am telling you now, as one who knows, that Catholics do not pray To images, they pray at images to the persons in heaven who are represented in the image.

Notice the commandent that we are not to make “any likeness of what is in heaven above”. If you believe Mary or a saint is in heaven and you make an image of them then you are violating the commandment. Correct?

Have you ever prayed with the bible in front of you. Within the covers of that bible in front of you are pictures drawn in words of the people you are praying to God & Jesus.

No.

 

[bpbasilphx]

You don’t really think that Catholics are worshiping the actual statues, do you?

When I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4233718]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.
guanophore
Clearly you do not understand adoration. It is idolatrous to adore anyone but the Holy God.

Here is what a adoration means:worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.

It actually looks like you don’t understand the term or you choose to ignore it…View attachment 4191

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

guanophore
The presence of images does not equate to idolatry, as you seem to think.

Evidently the Jews did. They allowed no images of the heavenly.

However, if it offends you, you need not have any.

thumbsup:

 

[justasking4]

You don’t really think that Catholics are worshiping the actual statues, do you?

When I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

Do catholics burn candles and kneel before statutes in prayer?

 

[guanophore]

Notice the commandent that we are not to make “any likeness of what is in heaven above”. If you believe Mary or a saint is in heaven and you make an image of them then you are violating the commandment. Correct?

Yes, just as we believe the cherubim that decorated the temple and the ark are in heaven. I think you are missing the Spirit of the Law, which is about worship. We are not to make images and worship them.

Remember about the golden calf, Aaron said “behold the God that brought you out of Egypt”?

No.

Then you are missing out on a great experience! No wonder you have such a narrow idea about what prayer is…

 

[guanophore]

Here is what a adoration means:worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.

Like I said, you are not understanding worship/adoration. Secondly, Mary is not a God, deity, or spirit, but a human being, a person, a creation.

It actually looks like you don’t understand the term or you choose to ignore it…

We understand it in how it was written.

Evidently the Jews did. They allowed no images of the heavenly.

Why do you think cherubim are described as being in heaven?

 

[guanophore]

Do catholics burn candles and kneel before statutes in prayer?

I think there are some that do, yes. Just as Jesus was kneeling in the Garden of Gethsemane, I am sure you will not think he was worshipping a tree!

 

[Thing]

Notice the commandent that we are not to make “any likeness of what is in heaven above”. If you believe Mary or a saint is in heaven and you make an image of them then you are violating the commandment. Correct?

No.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above
**or on the earth **beneath or in the water under the earth.

Cannot believe I need to respond to this.

Have you ever taken a photograph? - I asked you

Yes, I have taken photographs. - said you

So you’ve broken the 2nd Commandment? - I ask you?

• You can get underwater cameras now you know, or, if you feel really cheap you can just buy an underwater case for your regular camera, yes you too can break the third part of the 2nd commandment now.

 

[cfrancis]

Evidently the Jews did. They allowed no images of the heavenly.

and

Notice the commandent that we are not to make “any likeness of what is in heaven above”.

The above quotes appear to be misleading.
Looking at the second quote first, here is the complete statement:
Ex 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Here is a description of the temple from 1 Kings 6:
18 There was cedar on the house within, carved in the shape of gourds and open flowers; all was cedar, there was no stone seen
gourds and open flowers are “on the earth”

23 Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high
24 Five cubits was the one wing of the cherub and five cubits the other wing of the cherub; from the end of one wing to the end of the other wing were ten cubits.
25 The other cherub was ten cubits; both the cherubim were of the same measure and the same form.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub.
27 He placed the cherubim in the midst of the inner house, and the wings of the cherubim were spread out, so that the wing of the one was touching the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub was touching the other wall. So their wings were touching each other in the center of the house.
28 He also overlaid the cherubim with gold.
cherubim are “in heaven”

From 1 Kings 7:
24 Under its brim gourds went around encircling it ten to a cubit, completely surrounding the sea; the gourds were in two rows, cast with the rest.
25 It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; and the sea was set on top of them, and all their rear parts turned inward.
oxen are “on the earth”

From Numbers 21:
8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
a serpent is “on the earth”

So the Jews did allow images of the heavenly (and I didn’t mention the Ark of the Covenant and its two cherubim).

 

[Thing]

In the martial arts, kneeling and bowing to Sensei is customary as a form of respect, humility, willingness to be taught, deference, and all kinds of things none having to do with worship or adoration.

I have great respect for my sensei, and honor him as a father, but I do not worship him, even when I kneel down and touch my forehead to the ground in front of him.

Thats interesting. I’d like to get good photos of Gesha’s, if thats how you say it.
Japan is cool.

 

[cfrancis]

Do catholics burn candles and kneel before statutes in prayer?

Your logic being, then: that in front of which you kneel is that which you are worshipping.

Which raises the question: where can you kneel that you are not in front of something?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Do catholics burn candles and kneel before statutes in prayer?

cfrancis
Your logic being, then: that in front of which you kneel is that which you are worshipping.

Which raises the question: where can you kneel that you are not in front of something?

Are not these things characteristics of worship?

 

[Thing]

"me:

Have you ever prayed with the bible in front of you. Within the covers of that bible in front of you are pictures drawn in words of the people you are praying to God & Jesus.

No.

Your church does not have a bible in it, up front, where you face?

You don’t pray in church?

You don’t have a church?

You carefully ensure you are not facing your bible whe you pray?

 

[cfrancis]

Are not these things characteristics of worship?

Are kneeling and candles characteristic of worship? Of course.
Are they exclusive to worship? Of course not.
One can both kneel and burn candles and not worship.

Now, back to the issue with your logic.
Your statement:

Originally Posted by justasking4
Do catholics burn candles and kneel before statutes in prayer?

Your logic being, then: that in front of which you kneel is that which you are worshipping.

Which raises the question based on your logic: where can you kneel that you are not in front of something?

Also notice you are very qick to dismiss the replies to your argument re: statues and the commandment.

 

[guanophore]

Are not these things characteristics of worship?

Who was Jesus worshipping when he knelt in the garden. The rock next to Him? The Tree? Honestly.

 

[justasking4]

and

The above quotes appear to be misleading.
Looking at the second quote first, here is the complete statement:
Ex 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Here is a description of the temple from 1 Kings 6:
18 There was cedar on the house within, carved in the shape of gourds and open flowers; all was cedar, there was no stone seen
gourds and open flowers are “on the earth”

23 Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high
24 Five cubits was the one wing of the cherub and five cubits the other wing of the cherub; from the end of one wing to the end of the other wing were ten cubits.
25 The other cherub was ten cubits; both the cherubim were of the same measure and the same form.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub.
27 He placed the cherubim in the midst of the inner house, and the wings of the cherubim were spread out, so that the wing of the one was touching the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub was touching the other wall. So their wings were touching each other in the center of the house.
28 He also overlaid the cherubim with gold.
cherubim are “in heaven”

From 1 Kings 7:
24 Under its brim gourds went around encircling it ten to a cubit, completely surrounding the sea; the gourds were in two rows, cast with the rest.
25 It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; and the sea was set on top of them, and all their rear parts turned inward.
oxen are “on the earth”

From Numbers 21:
8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
a serpent is “on the earth”

So the Jews did allow images of the heavenly (and I didn’t mention the Ark of the Covenant and its two cherubim).

Who commanded the Jews to build the temple and the ark? God did. However, in fact He did command His people not to ever make any image of the heavenly on their own. This is what is forbidden. The temple and the ark and its construction were commanded by God while men are not to make their own “heavenly images”.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Are not these things characteristics of worship?

guanophore
Who was Jesus worshipping when he knelt in the garden. The rock next to Him? The Tree? Honestly.

Are rocks and trees considered images of the heavenly in the Scriptures?