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Vico
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Definition of sanctimonious is “hypocritically pious or devout” (Merriam-Webster)
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TheLittleLady
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You and your ex wife and daughter need to talk about this drama free. Also, I’m sure he has a name, so the conversation would begin with daughter saying “mom, I feel uncomfortable when Charlie tickles me. Would you ask him to respect my boundaries?”
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27lw
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Oh, it’s just life? Messy old life. Does it not mean anything when someone in a sacramental Catholic marriage deserts the marriage and takes up with someone new?
I personally don’t think it’s just life, and a messy relationship.
Of course we don’t know details about the OP and his marriage / family life, but we do know that the wife deserted the family. This “Oh well, it’s just life! That’s how relationships are!” just seems out of place on a Catholic forum. Maybe I’m wrong.
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Lifeisbeautiful3
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Lifeisbeautiful3:
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TheLittleLady
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The OPs marriage was found to be null by the Church. It was not sacramental, it was not valid.
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27lw
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27lw:
Lifeisbeautiful3:
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27lw
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Oh dear. I stand corrected. It’s interesting when a “null” marriage lasts that long. What does it imply about anyone’s marriage - - it could be rendered null at any time?The OPs marriage was found to be null by the Church. It was not sacramental, it was not valid.
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XP-Servant
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The marriage was presumed to be sacramental up and until the point the tribunal rendered a decision. Had there not been an affair, there would have been no divorce, and there would have been no judgement rendered on the sacramental nature of the marriage. If you are suggesting the decision of the tribunal lessens the impact of what this affair did to my children and me, and to the other spouse and children as well, I would suggest this conversation has become too academic. Where is the compassion and understanding for a fellow Catholic who had to endure this circumstance and is simply reaching out for guidance?
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Lifeisbeautiful3
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We often encourage people who are struggling in their marriage not to approach the situation with the googly eyes of the emotion of being ‘in love’ but, rather, to treat marriage as a vocation, a commitment, a choice.
I am similarly approaching the subject of divorce/annulment through this lens. Not of whether ‘it’s sad’, but through a dispassionate review of the facts. That’s where I was arriving at a spot that teaching and learning may be a better answer than pretending it’s not a real situation for many Catholics.
I’m sorry you are going through this. I didn’t detect any anger or bitterness in your post. I think you really just want what’s best for your kids, as any good father would.
I have a feeling that my answer isn’t going to be popular, but here we go…
First and foremost, it’s important not to condemn your ex-wife in front of your children. Don’t talk about her judgementally to the children. Don’t reveal her faults unless it’s absolutely necessary. Even after all this, she is still their mother, and they must know that they have to treat her with respect.
That said…I don’t entirely agree with the notion that you must pretend everything she does is perfectly acceptable (not that anyone here said that) or that you shouldn’t be forthcoming about things she’s done wrong. You don’t have to talk disrespectfully about her or condemn her to make it known to your kids that what she and her affair partner are doing goes against Church teaching. I think this is important because you don’t want them thinking it’s the right thing to do or that they can/should make similar decisions in their own lives.
I think there are two extremes that can be taken in a situation like this. Extreme 1: Parent disrespects ex in front of children and completely turns them against their other parent, and Extreme 2: Parent goes to great extents to cover any and all faults of ex in the name of not turning the children against the ex and in the process, allow a bad example to be set for the children. I think there is a middle ground, a balance of not showing disrespect but also teaching children that what their parent has done isn’t right.
I have a feeling that my answer isn’t going to be popular, but here we go…
First and foremost, it’s important not to condemn your ex-wife in front of your children. Don’t talk about her judgementally to the children. Don’t reveal her faults unless it’s absolutely necessary. Even after all this, she is still their mother, and they must know that they have to treat her with respect.
That said…I don’t entirely agree with the notion that you must pretend everything she does is perfectly acceptable (not that anyone here said that) or that you shouldn’t be forthcoming about things she’s done wrong. You don’t have to talk disrespectfully about her or condemn her to make it known to your kids that what she and her affair partner are doing goes against Church teaching. I think this is important because you don’t want them thinking it’s the right thing to do or that they can/should make similar decisions in their own lives.
I think there are two extremes that can be taken in a situation like this. Extreme 1: Parent disrespects ex in front of children and completely turns them against their other parent, and Extreme 2: Parent goes to great extents to cover any and all faults of ex in the name of not turning the children against the ex and in the process, allow a bad example to be set for the children. I think there is a middle ground, a balance of not showing disrespect but also teaching children that what their parent has done isn’t right.
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XP-Servant
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Thank you, Psalm30 for your response. As I stated in my initial post, I felt like I was the only adult in my children’s immediate lives who was trying to stand by Church teachings. This circumstance was thrust on us, and I am trying to negotiate it as a single father and as best as I can in accordance with my faith. If children would not be involved, this would be a non-issue. I appreciate the compassion, understanding, and clarity of your suggestion.
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Gilly_flower
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You have had a most unhappy experience, of which the upshot is that you yourself have been told you were not in a valid relationship with the mother of your child…so distressing as the situation you find yourself in is, I would not weigh in about the validity of your partner’s new relationship…it really is nothing to do with you, and obsessively raking over the ashes will do no one any good…least of you.
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27lw
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If there weren’t three children involved maybe I could be as dispassionate as you seem to be. Shrug27lw:
We often encourage people who are struggling in their marriage not to approach the situation with the googly eyes of the emotion of being ‘in love’ but, rather, to treat marriage as a vocation, a commitment, a choice.
I am similarly approaching the subject of divorce/annulment through this lens. Not of whether ‘it’s sad’, but through a dispassionate review of the facts. That’s where I was arriving at a spot that teaching and learning may be a better answer than pretending it’s not a real situation for many Catholics.
I also feel like the OP had the rug pulled out from under him. Are Catholics not supposed to take their marriage vows seriously?
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I think it’s fair to point out to the kids—especially if they ask—that mother’s marriage to the affair partner is not valid according to the Catholic Church. As @Lou2U said earlier, he can phrase it in objective terms such as “This is what the Catholic Church teaches” while leaving his feelings towards his ex out of it.
With all due respect, I think you could have a bit more gentleness in your words toward the OP. I really don’t think he’s “obsessively raking over the ashes” about his ex. And, all of this does have something to do with him—she is still his children’s mother and he is concerned for his children’s well-being and spiritual life.
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dollysro
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Please give your kids a bit of credit. They know what is going on and if they don’t, they soon will. Take the high road, as was suggested and if they have questions about their mother’s relationship with the new guy, suggest they direct them to her. Don’t speak badly about her, no matter how easy or tempting. She is still their mom and they will have a loyalty to her, whether or not any of us thinks she deserves it.
Go on to live a good life, be happy for her, yourself and your children. Teach them through your example.
Go on to live a good life, be happy for her, yourself and your children. Teach them through your example.
I’m just going to point out that she has already lied about her relationship with the new guy, saying that she met the new guy after the divorce/annulment.
There’s also an issue with the new guy tickling the daughter in a way that makes her uncomfortable, something I think has been significantly downplayed in this entire conversation. It certainly does happen that new partners sexually abuse step-children while the biological parent knowingly stands by and does nothing. Can he trust his ex-wife to put an end to something sinister going on with his teenage daughter if it escalates past tickling?
Not to mention: how trustworthy is the ex-wife in general after what she’s done? Forgiveness doesn’t mean automatically trusting someone who may not be trustworthy.
There are still limits to this. We’re talking about people who have proven by their actions that their trustworthiness is questionable. Yes, the children have a loyalty to their mother, but trust is something that must be earned and can be broken. The fact that she’s their biological mother doesn’t automatically mean they can or should trust her.
Yes, go on to live a good life and teach through example. But…be happy for her? I’d say don’t allow bitterness to cloud your heart, but I don’t think being “happy” for her is a necessity. Should we be “happy” for anyone who’s dug themselves into a heaping pile of sin? No we don’t know where she stands with God, but I don’t think it’s necessary to be happy for someone who leads a sinful life. Praying for her soul would be more appropriate.
I’m a little disappointed in this thread in that I think some posters are showing more sympathy and compassion for someone who lied, committed adultery, destroyed her marriage, is continuing to lie, and whose new partner is making her teenage daughter physically uncomfortable than they are toward a loving father who has been through a devastating betrayal and is concerned about the well-being of his children.
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dollysro
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“I’m just going to point out that she has already lied about her relationship with the new guy, saying that she met the new guy after the divorce/annulment.” In little time they will figure that out too.
“There’s also an issue with the new guy tickling the daughter in a way that makes her uncomfortable, something I think has been significantly downplayed in this entire conversation.” Here is where the dad takes a stand for his daughter. He can use the legal system to help.
"Yes, the children have a loyalty to their mother, but trust is something that must be earned and can be broken. " I didn’t say they have to or will trust her. But they will have animosity to others who speak badly of her.
“But…be happy for her?” He must have, or maybe still does love her. Fake it til you make it. It will be a burden off of him.
“I’m a little disappointed in this thread in that I think some posters are showing more sympathy and compassion for someone who lied, …” I don’t see a lot of sympathy for her. I think they are pointing out that the poster cannot control her actions, only his reaction to them.
“There’s also an issue with the new guy tickling the daughter in a way that makes her uncomfortable, something I think has been significantly downplayed in this entire conversation.” Here is where the dad takes a stand for his daughter. He can use the legal system to help.
"Yes, the children have a loyalty to their mother, but trust is something that must be earned and can be broken. " I didn’t say they have to or will trust her. But they will have animosity to others who speak badly of her.
“But…be happy for her?” He must have, or maybe still does love her. Fake it til you make it. It will be a burden off of him.
“I’m a little disappointed in this thread in that I think some posters are showing more sympathy and compassion for someone who lied, …” I don’t see a lot of sympathy for her. I think they are pointing out that the poster cannot control her actions, only his reaction to them.
I don’t think it was unreasonable for him to not want his kids to build a relationship with the new guy under false pretenses. Maybe I’m crazy, but I think it’s important not to lie to people. I can’t say for sure whether revealing her lie was the right thing to do, but I don’t think he was wrong to be concerned about it.
If this message was conveyed in this thread it got lost amid all the “Don’t you dare say even one negative thing about the woman who lied, committed adultery, destroyed your family, continues to lie, and whose new partner is making your daughter physically uncomfortable. You’re just being angry and bitter.”
I’m sorry, but no… The way you word this implies he stuff the grief he feels over the loss of his 21 year marriage. He needs to process his feelings and allow himself to grieve. He doesn’t have to make a show about how bad he feels but I’m not sure “faking it” will be a burden off of him.
I disagree. All of the emphasis on preserving her reputation in the eyes of the children while saying the OP is angry and bitter when he’s simply concerned for his kids puts her into the center of concern rather than the people who are injured and at risk because of her actions. Please note: I’m not advocating that the OP tears her down and deliberately turns her kids against her. I’m just trying to guard against the extreme view that a harmful parent must be defended and protected at any cost.
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TheLittleLady
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A marriage is not rendered null.
The wedding resulted in a valid marriage or it did not, validity is from the vows on or it never happened
There are couples who have never attempted marriage who live together, have children and grandchildren and who are committed and adore each other then grow old together and die in each other’s arms.
Valid marriage is not required for a relationship to last for many years.
Other couples attempt a valid marriage, baptized and their vaild marriage is also expected to be sacramental. They are good and happy for a time, then something goes wrong.
One person I know talks of buying a lovely sailboat. The couple sets sail on a round the world adventure and it is an amazing journey. They hit some storms and come through them.
One day, the hull in the boat splits. Turns out there was a serious flaw when the boat was made and regardless of the many nautical miles of sailing, that boat was not actually seaworthy.
The wedding resulted in a valid marriage or it did not, validity is from the vows on or it never happened
There are couples who have never attempted marriage who live together, have children and grandchildren and who are committed and adore each other then grow old together and die in each other’s arms.
Valid marriage is not required for a relationship to last for many years.
Other couples attempt a valid marriage, baptized and their vaild marriage is also expected to be sacramental. They are good and happy for a time, then something goes wrong.
One person I know talks of buying a lovely sailboat. The couple sets sail on a round the world adventure and it is an amazing journey. They hit some storms and come through them.
One day, the hull in the boat splits. Turns out there was a serious flaw when the boat was made and regardless of the many nautical miles of sailing, that boat was not actually seaworthy.
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