Dear one, that is a beautiful explanation. I do think what @27lw said was in response to a poster who seemed to imply that the marriage being found null diminishes or erases the emotional impact of the situation on the OP and his children. 27lw, you can correct me if I’m wrong.
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27lw
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Yes, sorry, I was being flippant because I find that word “null” to be very callous when used in relation to marriage, especially a long one.
I realize it is basically being used as a legal term, but, still.
Even more credit to the sailor who made it work for twenty + years in a vessel that perhaps was not seaworthy.
I realize it is basically being used as a legal term, but, still.
Even more credit to the sailor who made it work for twenty + years in a vessel that perhaps was not seaworthy.
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Gilly_flower
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But if the OP is going to go into the supposed ins and outs of his former partner’s new relationship - and he may be relying at least in part on hearsay - I think he must be equally candid about his own lengthy relationship with the children’s mother, which it seems was based on somewhat shaky foundations.
I am not condoning the mother’s behaviour, and can understand the profound hurt involved, but children do not want or need to see their parents’ dirty linen washed in public.
None of them appear to be very young, and they will come to an understanding of exactly where to apportion blame in their own good time…Much better to take the high ground…
I confess I am also curious to hear the grounds on which the OP’s fairly lengthy marriage was annulled - but perfectly understand he may not wish to go into this…
I am not condoning the mother’s behaviour, and can understand the profound hurt involved, but children do not want or need to see their parents’ dirty linen washed in public.
None of them appear to be very young, and they will come to an understanding of exactly where to apportion blame in their own good time…Much better to take the high ground…
I confess I am also curious to hear the grounds on which the OP’s fairly lengthy marriage was annulled - but perfectly understand he may not wish to go into this…
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XP-Servant
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Are you suggesting that I send you my marital history so that you can judge both me and the tribunal? Did you not see in my original post that their mother handled her affair in a very public manner? For simply telling my children the truth when their mother was lying to them, you have called me both sanctimonious and obsessive. I told them the truth a year and a half ago. I reached out yesterday for some clarification on what defines an illicit relationship because my children are questioning whether they should commit to attending a wedding between their mother and her affair partner. I am simply trying to provide a good, faithful answer that is in line with Church teaching, and I am trying to do so in a way that offers the truth without casting their mother in a negative light. Under the circumstances, that is a very delicate balance. Instead of answering my question, you have accused me of being obsessive. If your intention is to suggest that I not try to unravel that quandary unless it plays out, then just say so. But I am not going to provide any more details of the past because that is not necessary to answer the questions I have posed. Is my former wife’s relationship with her affair partner illicit? Should my children attend such a wedding if so? These are the questions I have posed, and you have not provided an answer to them. As a concerned father, are these not reasonable questions to ask of our faith community? Can a fellow Catholic simply ask such questions and not be judged for circumstances upon which he has since been to confession and upon which The Church has already rendered a decision?
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27lw
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I’ve been thinking (not just for this example but for ALL engaged couples):
You know how the priest separates the couple and asks them if they’ve been coerced into marriage, or if the fiance(e) has mental illness?
There’s the rub - - how many young people know they have mental illness? Or how could the fiance(e) know they are being taken in by someone who is a manipulative narcissist?
Is it possible this needs to be handled more carefully by the priest? Rather than just a quick question to check off a list?
You know how the priest separates the couple and asks them if they’ve been coerced into marriage, or if the fiance(e) has mental illness?
There’s the rub - - how many young people know they have mental illness? Or how could the fiance(e) know they are being taken in by someone who is a manipulative narcissist?
Is it possible this needs to be handled more carefully by the priest? Rather than just a quick question to check off a list?
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XP-Servant
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The priest who did our marriage preparation was the first priest whom my former wife served with when she became an altar server as a teenager. Because of that familiarity, there was little guidance and preparation outside of the basic questions. I looked at the marriage preparation paperwork when I petitioned for the annulment, and his answers were very short. I am not faulting the priest in this case. There was nothing to indicate at that time what came out at the end of the marriage.
Friend, I am truly very sad about some of the responses to you here. There is nothing at all unreasonable about your questions.
I will give you my very humble opinion about what you have asked: if your children initiate a discussion by asking questions in the way you describe, it is my opinion that you should tell the truth. But do it the way Lou2U described earlier. Phrase it like, “The Catholic Church says…” while leaving your emotions and your opinion out of it. Remind the children that they are to always respect their mother. Give as few details as possible. But do tell the truth about what is right and wrong.
As far as whether or not your children should attend the wedding, once again, tell them “The Catholic Church says…” and then I would let them decide for themselves.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
He does? I don’t remember the priest asking me anything like that and I doubt he asked my husband. We were in our early 30s at the time.
I cannot imagine a priest asking someone if their fiance(e) has mental illness unless either the fiance(e) shows some kind of strange behavior in front of the priest, or the someone being asked this by the priest sought spiritual counseling regarding unusual behavior by the fiance(e).
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XP-Servant
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Thank you again, Psalm30. I have advised my older son, the adult, that he speak to a priest before committing to attending the wedding. For the younger son who is confirmed, I told him what I understand to be right from wrong as per Catholic teaching, but as a minor he may not have a choice if his mother insists that he attend and participate. Either way, I feel I have done the best that I can to uphold our faith in their eyes.
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That was the right thing to do. I was about to make another post explaining the Church’s stance on Catholics attending invalid weddings, but it seems you are under the guidance of priest and are on the right track.
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27lw
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Oh dear - - maybe he asked if either of us has a mental disability. I thought I remembered him asking mental illness, but I could have “mis-remembered”.27lw:
He does? I don’t remember the priest asking me anything like that and I doubt he asked my husband. We were in our early 30s at the time.
I cannot imagine a priest asking someone if their fiance(e) has mental illness unless either the fiance(e) shows some kind of strange behavior in front of the priest, or the someone being asked this by the priest sought spiritual counseling regarding unusual behavior by the fiance(e).
Could this vary by diocese? This was in about 2008.
But if mental illness could be a grounds for anullment, wouldn’t it make sense to screen for it to some degree in marriage prep?
https://www.catholicmatch.com/institute/2014/08/is-mental-illness-grounds-for-an-annulment/
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Gilly_flower
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I have expressed utmost sympathy for your plight and would agree that from what you have told us your former partner has indeed behaved very shabbily - and is optimistic in choosing a new partner with two failed marriages already behind him.
But the facts appear to be that she is free to marry as she has not been married before according to your annulment. And you are merely supposing their future plans - an engagement “may” be on the cards, he “probably” won’t seek an annulment…
So I simply suggest that you try not to get too emotionally involved - however hard that maybe…your children still need their mother…and their father - so don’t ever make them feel they have to choose.
But the facts appear to be that she is free to marry as she has not been married before according to your annulment. And you are merely supposing their future plans - an engagement “may” be on the cards, he “probably” won’t seek an annulment…
So I simply suggest that you try not to get too emotionally involved - however hard that maybe…your children still need their mother…and their father - so don’t ever make them feel they have to choose.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It could vary based on priest, parish or diocese, I supposed. I was married about 15 years earlier.
I am picturing, however, the number of couples in USA where one or both parties does suffer from anxiety, depression, ADHD, etc and might consider a question about mental illness to be intrusive, especially if they don’t know the priest or deacon very well.
Re the coercion, it might be that my husband and I had already explained to the priest that we had been dating a long time and wanted to get married and given that we were both over 30 it seemed obvious no one was being forced. Now that I think about it, he may have spoken to my husband in private (husband was a Protestant and unlike me did not eee the priest every Sunday at Mass at that time) and asked him if he were being coerced. I have a very vague memory of my 6 foot 1 inch big bulky 32-year-old husband-to-be telling me he got asked that, in an incredulous voice. I don’t remember the priest asking me that.
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27lw
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I recall our pastor saying “I know this might seem silly, but I need to ask you these questions separately”. Then he literally went with each one of us separately into a different room. I think he also asked if we would be open to life, and we already had three children. We were getting our marriage convalidated, and I thin the whole process did not make a lot of sense. They just used the pre-marital questionnaire with questions which seemed a bit pointless 12 years in.
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TheLittleLady
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The Church leaves this as a decision to be made on a case by case basis.
I’m going to guess that trying to keep kids from their mom’s wedding would do harm to the relationship, not to mention be a violation of custody arrangements.
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XP-Servant
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Who said anything about withholding the kids from such an event? What I was telling my son in the above statement is he may not have a choice about going to the wedding if his mother insists that he attend.
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Horton
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I thought you said you had a daughter?
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XP-Servant
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I have two sons and a daughter.
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Horton
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XP-Servant
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I excluded my daughter from this conversation as she has not received her Confirmation, and she is a minor. Other than explaining to her what the Catholic Church teaches on marriage, there is nothing more that needs to be said. If her mother wants her daughter to go to said wedding, that is her mother’s choice.
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