Adultery to save lives justifiable?

[nfinke]

So to be clear, you’re arguing that all sins are of equal weight. There’s no gradation of sin?

 

[thistle]

So to be clear, you’re arguing that all sins are of equal weight. There’s no gradation of sin?

Let me put it this way.

Yes I would say murder is graver than adultery but both are MORTAL SINS. If you die with either on your soul you go immediately to Hell. God does not differentiate the various mortal sins. A mortal sin is a mortal sin so it is a waste of time people trying to justify a mortal sin by saying oh well it’s not as bad as that other mortal sin.

 

[TK421]

A person would be put under extreme duress in this scenario, but no: if a person tried to make you sell your body in exchange for human lives than you should still refuse. If the culprit carries through with the threat then he is the one responsible for any deaths.

There are many real life scenarios where stuff like this has happened, especially regarding the faith. Christians didn’t just endanger themselves but also the families that they loved, but they still refused to renounce Christ.

 

[thistle]

A person would be put under extreme duress in this scenario, but no if a person tried to make you sell your body in exchange for human lives than you should still refuse. If the person carries through with the threat then he is the one responsible for any deaths.

What else can I say. The Church teaching is clear. The end does NOT justify the means. It does not say the end does not justify the means unless…

 

[TheAdvocate197]

OP here. Ok, let’s look at this another way:

Scenario A: She says “no, my marriage vows are sacred” and her family is executed

or

Scenario B: She agrees to be his “lover,” and her family is spared from death.

Of the two, which do you consider more praiseworthy? (And yes, I know both scenarios are morally atrocious.)

 

[TK421]

@thistle

Reading comprehension.

 

[Aquinas11]

What if a husband was told to kill his wife then their daughter would be saved

Again , why are we trusting the word of an admitted psychopath murderer? If someone is willing to murder, they’re not willing to lie? I don’t get it

 

[thistle]

OP here. Ok, let’s look at this another way:

Scenario A: She says “no, my marriage vows are sacred” and her family is executed

or

Scenario B: She agrees to be his “lover,” and her family is spared from death.

Of the two, which do you consider more praiseworthy? (And yes, I know both scenarios are morally atrocious.)

You do not commit the evil act and trust in God’s mercy.

 

[nfinke]

God does not differentiate the various mortal sins.

Alright I’ll quote you the church teaching then (talking about how a sin is defined as “mortal”):

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft () . One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
Talking about legitimate defense:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force

And also:
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.

So if someone is “choosing” to commit adultery to save the life of someone else, they are acting in defense of those under their responsibility, are committing a sin that is less bad than killing, which the church said would be acceptable in a similar situation, and if it’s under the threat of murder, they can’t be truly consenting to the act. So a second way it fails to meet the definition of a mortal sin. Would you argue that even telling a lie wouldn’t be justified in saving a life? That’s a mortal sin too.

Remember, you can’t deny the teaching of the Church without denying Christ right?

 

[John10]

The simple answer is to not do it. There are no guarantees that doing it would spare your family, the person could lie and then an even greater evil would occur.

You are 100% innocent since it’s the camp commander who is murdering your family.

Saints have preferred to endure torture than renounce their faith, not to mention as you said the ends does not justify the means.

 

[thistle]

So if someone is “choosing” to commit adultery to save the life of someone else, they are acting in defense of those under their responsibility

Nope! Not self defence or defence of others. It does not apply if you commit an evil act.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

If you want real facts, not a hypothetical, you can look to the stories of Judith, Jael or Esther. I have no idea how this affects moral theology.

I am less familiar with the story of Judith, but how do the stories of Jael or Esther compare to hypothetical of “sleep with me or else”? 1) In the story of Jael, the commander is exhausted and looking for refuge, so she gives him a jug of milk to make him sleepier, and then lets him go to sleep in her tent before she kills him by driving a nail through his head while he is sleeping. I never thought there was any suggestion that they had sexual relations. 2) In the story of Esther, she is brought to the king’s house along with many other beautiful young women so that he can choose one as a wife. Now that I think about it, the king does sleep with each woman before he decides whether or not she is the one, so that could perhaps be comparable. But at that point the women are considered his concubines, legally belonging to him but without the status of a wife. Complicated, not a situation we have much familiarity with today.

Perhaps I am missing something, though?

 

[goout]

nfinke:

So to be clear, you’re arguing that all sins are of equal weight. There’s no gradation of sin?

Let me put it this way.

Yes I would say murder is graver than adultery but both are MORTAL SINS. If you die with either on your soul you go immediately to Hell. God does not differentiate the various mortal sins. A mortal sin is a mortal sin so it is a waste of time people trying to justify a mortal sin by saying oh well it’s not as bad as that other mortal sin.

Intent.
Circumstances.
Knowledge and consent.
The gravity of the moral object is not the only thing.

 

[nfinke]

ok, so you’re going to completely ignore the passage from the Catechism that says it isn’t mortal sin if you kill in defense of others, or yourself or the common good?

“The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor… the one is intended, the other is not.”

Please let me know where the church is wrong in this teaching.

 

[nfinke]

So killing to save life gets a pass because the intent is to save life and killing is an unfortunate consequence…but having sex to save a life is totally off the table? Sorry I don’t see that. Unless there is some place where the church says adultery is a more heinous sin than killing, which would seem absurd to me, I don’t buy it.

 

[Dovekin]

Judith, the book, makes it very clear no sex is involved bcause Holofernes was passed out drunk. She does have an elaborate seduction scheme to get him into her tent so she can kill him. Clearly the viewpoint is that agreeing to sex is not ok, but murder is. Using her attractive qualities to further a scheme to kill…

Esther has it sanitized further. She is favorite wife of the king who kills the tormentor of the Jews at her request. The sex is legitimate, as is the killing.

St Perpetua was the object of the lust of the Roman authority. St Felicity was the nurse for Perpetua’s child. The authority tried to coerce Perpetua to “marry” him by threatening to kill her child. She refused and Ss Perpetua and Felicity were martyred. I think the child ends up being raised by P’s father. I may have some details wrong.

Of course, St Maria Goretti dies rather than give up her virginity.

Even though I revere Ss Perpetua, Felicity and Maria Goretti, I am not sure I would recommend their choices. Or Judith’s seduction of H to kill him. It is a difficult moral problem, and these stories give some insight into it.

 

[goout]

Not true. At the very least it is not true as a blanket statement.

 

[Fauken]

So killing to save life gets a pass because the intent is to save life and killing is an unfortunate consequence…but having sex to save a life is totally off the table?

Killing is not always murder. Sex outside of marriage is always sex outside of marriage. That’s the difference.

 

[goout]

Under the duress of killing your family?
Hello?
Hypothetically of course.

Grave matter is not automatically culpable as mortal sin.
Right?
What are the other factors in determining the mortality of a sin?
Even masturbation carries the possible exculpable factor “force of habit” in the catechism.
“force of habit” is addressed as a matter of knowledge and consent.

What other circumstances might affect knowledge and consent? Can threat of violence be one?

 

[slomotion]

Yes I would say murder is graver than adultery but both are MORTAL SINS. If you die with either on your soul you go immediately to Hell. God does not differentiate the various mortal sins. A mortal sin is a mortal sin so it is a waste of time people trying to justify a mortal sin by saying oh well it’s not as bad as that other mortal sin.

As a sexual assault victim, it’s hard for me to understand how someone put in the situation that the OP describes could be morally culpable in this situation. When someone is demanding sexual favors from you and you are in a situation where you are in danger if you don’t comply, depending on the person you are, you are not in your right mind. Of course someone with the grace to keep their head and put Christ first in this situation would be highly admirable - but if you are being threatened with the death/torture of your family if you do not comply, how could you possibly be in your right might without a great deal of God given grace? I would personally be in a panic to save their lives. Without full consent, how could this possibly meet the criteria for mortal sin?

If the Church values life so highly, and God is just, this hardly seems fair to condemn someone to hell for protecting their families lives.