Adultery?

[styrgwillidar]

I agree with all the above but, if one falls in love with someone else and they with you and you have a partner that is beyond reconciliation then it can be very difficult to stay loyal when all in the marriage has died! Staying together only for the sake of the children.

Yes, one has to take the good times with the bad but when all has been tried over many years to get the relationship back and nothing has succeeded then it must be time to part?

Surely God could see that if all has been tried and nothing works he would understand?

Love is a choice, love is actions, it’s not a feeling. Feelings change-- what happens when one of the individuals falls out of love with the next person, do they then move on again? And again? Just keep moving to new folks as they ‘fall out of love’. Is God supposed to just understand that they never meant their vow in the first place? That those words and vows are just theater, something for show during a ceremony but meaning nothing to the folks that utter them?

If we had no choice, if it were just feelings, we could never take the vow in the first place. We could never obey God’s command to love one another, to love our enemies. Love is the hard choice, not the easy and convenient one. Jesus showed His love by His passion, pain and death on the cross. Even as all of those around Him were unreliable. He chose to love us.

As I said before, it isn’t moral to go to someone else for what should be shared and kept between spouses. One should rededicate themselves to their spouse, try everything, retrovaille, Marriage Encounter, therapy, counseling, choosing to perform acts of love and kindness towards their spouse, new activities together. If the marriage breaks down to the point they can’t live together, than to live singly and honor the vow they made before God. It is a vow we take to Him as well as to our spouse.

ETA: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. But if your grass is dead because you didn’t take care of it-- water, fertilize, weed etc., than the grass is going to turn brown on that other side when you get there for the same reasons.

 

[Cathoholic]

ajecphoto. You stated:

QUOTE:
Surely God could see that . . . he would understand?

Let’s see what God says . . . .

MATTHEW 19:6 6 So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

**
Excerpt from 1st CORINTHIANS 6:9-11** 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, . . . nor adulterers, . . . will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

QUOTE:
I agree with all the above but, if one falls in love with someone else and they with you . . . .

But you cannot “love” someone else by carrying on an illicit relationship with them. You actually DO THEM HARM . . . . and yourself too.

ROMANS 13:8 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

You actually not only do harm to them (and yourself) . . . . but you harm ME. You harm ALL of society by carrying on illicit relationships.

You harm society.

ROMAN CATECHISM But the reason why adultery is expressly forbidden is because in addition to the turpitude which it shares with other kinds of incontinence, it adds the sin of injustice, not only against our neighbour, but also against civil society.

**CCC 2385 **Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

WEDDING VOWS I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

PHONY WEDDING VOWS I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad but, if I fall in love with someone else and they with me then sayonara—I’m outta here. And you, in sickness and in health, but if the marriage gets unhealthy, or maybe when all in the marriage has died, well you know. It can be very difficult to stay loyal. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life. But if nothing has succeeded, then it must be time to part.

Think this all through very carefully. Remember a Matrimonial Covenant (Marriage) involves God too. If things are difficult with the your spouse, focus more on the Divine aspect. Spend time with Jesus in Eucharistic Adoration and prayer.

When spouses fall short, and they all do, Jesus makes up for all we lack.

I’ll close in the next post with some catechetical quotes from the Romans Catechism and I will keep you folks in my prayers.

 

[Cathoholic]

It is common when marriages are rocky one spouse “gets mean”. Even “extra mean”. This is probably to make things extra intolerable so they can give themselves “conscience salve” when the spouse finally reacts to this irascible demeanor.

They can walk away saying things to themselves like: “Well now he is indiscriminately hurting my feelings so now I MUST get out of this dysfunctional relationship” . . . . yet really all the while helping to bring on that “hurting my feelings” reaction, looking for further rationalization to leave their spouse.

The Roman Catechism puts it this way . . . . “the Lord forbade the desire of another’s wife lest husbands might be induced to abandon their wives, or wives conduct themselves with such bad temper towards their husbands as to make it necessary to send them away.”

We have all heard things like this from friends or acquaintances whose marriage was going through tough times.

The following is from the Roman Catechism (the Catechism of the Council of Trent—which paragraph 9 of the CCC calls a work of first rank among Christian teaching) . . .

(bold and ul mine except title headings which are bold original)

**
ROMAN CATECHISM**

Two Parts Of This Commandment

This Commandment, then, resolves itself into two heads; the one expressed, which prohibits adultery; the other implied, which inculcates purity of mind and body. . . . . In the Gospel, too, Christ the Lord says: From the heart come forth adulteries and fornications, which defile a man.. . . .

Impurity Blinds The Mind And Hardens The Heart

But even though the adulterer may escape the punishment of death, he does not escape the great pains and torments that often overtake such sins as his. He becomes afflicted with blindness of mind a most severe punishment . . . .

. . . . . Reason alone shows that to prohibit adultery is also to prohibit the desire of another man’s wife, because, were the desire lawful, its indulgence must be so too

. . . . we learn from these words of our Lord recorded in St. Matthew: You have heard that it was said to them of old: “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” but I say to you, etc.

The second reason (for the promulgation) of these two Commandments is that they distinctly and in express terms prohibit some things of which the sixth and seventh Commandments do not contain an explicit prohibition. The seventh Commandment, for instance, forbids an unjust desire or endeavour to take what belongs to another; but this Commandment further prohibits even to covet it in any way, even though it could be acquired justly and lawfully, if we foresee that by such acquisition our neighbour would suffer some loss. . . .

. . . . . , He intended chiefly to provide against the injuries which we might inflict on ourselves by the indulgence of inordinate desires, as would easily happen were we at liberty to covet all things indiscriminately.

. Between divine and human laws, then, there is this difference, that human laws are fulfilled by an external compliance alone, whereas the laws of God, since He reads the heart, require purity of heart, sincere and undefiled integrity of soul. . . . .

"His Wife"

The Commandment which forbids us to covet the goods of our neighbour, is followed by another, which forbids us to covet our neighbour’s wife – a law that prohibits not only the adulterer’s criminal desire of his neighbour’s wife, but even the wish to marry her. For of old when a bill of divorce was permitted, it might easily happen, that she who was put away by one husband might be married to another. But the Lord forbade the desire of another’s wife lest husbands might be induced to abandon their wives, or wives conduct themselves with such bad temper towards their husbands as to make it necessary to send them away. . . .

Advantages Of Indissolubility

Lest, however, the law of Matrimony should seem too severe on account of its absolute indissolubility, the advantages of this indissolubility should be pointed out.

The first (beneficial consequence) is that men are given to understand that in entering Matrimony virtue and congeniality of disposition are to be preferred to wealth or beauty – a circumstance that cannot but prove of the very highest advantage to the interests of society at large.

In the second place, if marriage could be dissolved by divorce, married persons would hardly ever be without causes of disunion, which would be daily supplied by the old enemy of peace and purity; while, on the contrary, now that the faithful must remember that even though separated as to bed and board, they remain none the less bound by the bond of marriage with no hope of marrying another, they are by this very fact rendered less prone to strife and discord. And even if it sometimes happens that husband and wife become separated, and are unable to bear the want of their partnership any longer, they are easily reconciled by friends and return to their common life. . . . . From all this it will be clear that Christian marriage is far superior in dignity and perfection to that of Gentiles and Jews.

The Three Blessings of Marriage

The faithful should also be shown that there are three blessings of marriage: children, fidelity and the Sacrament. These are blessings which to some degree compensate for the inconveniences

When you look to your spouse, look back and see the spouse you said “I DO!” to in front of the community. See the good in him and her that drew them to you in the first place.

Get a good Priest to help you through the issues.

Pray. Pray. Pray.

 

[ajecphotos]

Prayer is a good thing that should be done.

Guys, living with no love is impossible. A dead marriage that has been dead for many years is just a nightmare. God, i am sure would not want people who definitely cant live together to remain together if it is causing harm. I believe that God is ‘all loving’ in that he knows us as humans and our weaknesses and how we can sometimes fail when put together.

Ok, it states in the Bible about marriage and adultery etc

I believe in God 100% but i also believe that God is more understanding of how we humans are than people think.

Ok, you may shoot me down for that belief but its how i see it.

***Is it ok for a woman to stay with her husband if he continually beats her every day? ***

For better for worse

 

[Peebo]

Prayer is a good thing that should be done.

Guys, living with no love is impossible. A dead marriage that has been dead for many years is just a nightmare. God, i am sure would not want people who definitely cant live together to remain together if it is causing harm. I believe that God is ‘all loving’ in that he knows us as humans and our weaknesses and how we can sometimes fail when put together.

Ok, it states in the Bible about marriage and adultery etc

I believe in God 100% but i also believe that God is more understanding of how we humans are than people think.

Ok, you may shoot me down for that belief but its how i see it.

***Is it ok for a woman to stay with her husband if he continually beats her every day? ***

For better for worse

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif

 

[ToeInTheWater]

***Is it ok for a woman to stay with her husband if he continually beats her every day? ***

For better for worse

You are putting up a strawman. No one posting here has suggested that a married couple must stay together in the same residence for the rest of their lives, no matter what, and certainly no one has claimed a woman should stay with a physically abusive husband (or vice versa). Even if there is no physical abuse, I think a case can be made for separation if living together is truly “harmful” to one or both spouses.

But the right to leave conjugal life, or pursue civil divorce if necessary to protect oneself or one’s children, this does NOT give anyone the green light to commit adultery! As for “living without love”, do you mean romantic love? I am a single woman, and not in a relationship. I live alone, but I certainly do NOT live without love. I have the love of my family and friends. I certainly don’t think “living without romantic love” gives me the right to “cuddle” with a married man and enjoy romantic love with him, even if we don’t have sex. If it’s not licit for me, how in the world could it be licit for someone who’s married themselves?

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
***Is it ok for a woman to stay with her husband if he continually beats her every day? ***
…

I would recommend against it, she has a right to safety, a requirement to value her own life. But that is ultimately her choice.

Now, is it legitimate for her to separate for her own safety?
To file for divorce in order to protect herself financially?

Catechism:
2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

(Can. 1153 §1 A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority. )

 

[MJJean]

Prayer is a good thing that should be done.

Guys, living with no love is impossible. A dead marriage that has been dead for many years is just a nightmare. God, i am sure would not want people who definitely cant live together to remain together if it is causing harm. I believe that God is ‘all loving’ in that he knows us as humans and our weaknesses and how we can sometimes fail when put together.

Ok, it states in the Bible about marriage and adultery etc

I believe in God 100% but i also believe that God is more understanding of how we humans are than people think.

Ok, you may shoot me down for that belief but its how i see it.

***Is it ok for a woman to stay with her husband if he continually beats her every day? ***

For better for worse

As a single lady mentioned, it’s entirely possible to live without romantic love. Religious, widows/widowers, single and married people do it every day.

But that is not the subject of the thread. The subject of the thread is adulterous behavior.

Sure, either of the people participating in this adulterous relationship may have a moral cause for divorce. But that isn’t the subject, either. Apparently, these two married people who are having an emotional and limitedly physical affair aren’t interested in divorce.
And that should tell you something! If it’s not bad at home enough to divorce than I highly doubt it’s that bad at all. The whole “I don’t get loved at home.” thing is the oldest excuse for cheating in the world.

As far as abuse, the Church teaches that once a valid marriage is contracted nothing invalidates that marriage. Not adultery, not physical abuse, not emotional abuse, and certainly not “waaah, my wife/husband isn’t giving me love.”. Those in abusive relationships certainly may civilly divorce in order to protect themselves, their children, and to be able to provide for themselves and their children. But that doesn’t mean that they are free to enter into new relationships. They’d have to divorce and then have their marriage investigated by a Tribunal. If the marriage was invalid from the start then they are free to date and remarry. If the marriage was valid from the start they would not be free to date or remarry unless they were willing to cut themselves off from the Sacraments.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

\

It is not adultery in the narrow sense of the word-- which would be sexual intercourse with someone other than your spouse. But it certainly is a sin against the marriage and the sixth commandment.

the two in question should talk to their priest in confessional.

Far be it from us to counsel Christ on vocabulary. Jesus expanded the definition of the word, that is good enough for me.
Adultery, yes.

 

[ajecphotos]

Well, Love can be so strong. True love.

I am sure that God knows what we are like as humans and that sometimes 2 people can marry and for whatever reason some time down the road cannot live together anymore and have to separate. God made us so he knows all our faults.

We have choices in life. Free will. God loves us all and i am sure in my heart that he helps us on our difficult road and would not put up obstacles to true love.

Ok, the Bible has references to this but for me, those references are from ‘people’ interpreting Gods words to suit the times.

God loves us all and wants us to be happy. Love of God is the most important thing!

 

[MJJean]

Well, Love can be so strong. True love.

I am sure that God knows what we are like as humans and that sometimes 2 people can marry and for whatever reason some time down the road cannot live together anymore and have to separate. God made us so he knows all our faults.

We have choices in life. Free will. God loves us all and i am sure in my heart that he helps us on our difficult road and would not put up obstacles to true love.

Ok, the Bible has references to this but for me, those references are from ‘people’ interpreting Gods words to suit the times.

God loves us all and wants us to be happy. Love of God is the most important thing!

Yes, God knows we can marry and end up unable to live together. But that still doesn’t give us license to start a new romantic relationship.

Besides, in the case presented the adulterers aren’t separating or divorcing and seeking annulment. They are simply sneaking around behind the backs of their spouses.

If one is going to betray their spouse and their vows the least they can do is be honest about it!

 

[ajecphotos]

Yes, God knows we can marry and end up unable to live together. But that still doesn’t give us license to start a new romantic relationship.

Besides, in the case presented the adulterers aren’t separating or divorcing and seeking annulment. They are simply sneaking around behind the backs of their spouses.

If one is going to betray their spouse and their vows the least they can do is be honest about it!

Correct but if children are involved and the people want to protect them then maybe there is no other alternative! Children are the no:1 priority and should be protected 100%.

Sneaking around is not ideal but maybe the best thing under present circumstances!

Maybe waiting until the children can decide for themselves is better than blowing up everything in their faces.

Staying together for the kids can be hard but the right decision as kids need a stable home. We are human! We are not saints. God made us. God knows our weaknesses. God is here to help. He loves us and i am sure he opens doors for us. Not everything that is written comes from God! God knows us!

WE ARE HUMAN, WE ARE WEAK, WE NEED GOD!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

We have choices in life. Free will. God loves us all and i am sure in my heart that he helps us on our difficult road and would not put up obstacles to true love.

How can “true love” lead one to sin?

Sneaking around is not ideal but maybe the best thing under present circumstances!

No, the best thing would be to STOP the adulterous relationship and focus on the marriage. Even if the romantic love between the spouses is “dead” I don’t think this means there is NO room for improvement in the relationship. Although I am sure that as long as the adulterers are using their affair as an escape, then there will be no hope for the marriage.

Staying together for the kids can be hard but the right decision as kids need a stable home. We are human! We are not saints. God made us. God knows our weaknesses. God is here to help. He loves us and i am sure he opens doors for us. Not everything that is written comes from God! God knows us!

Of course God knows our weaknesses but the people in this scenario do not seem to be making any effort into overcoming them.

Well at least you seem to acknowledge that this behavior is sinful and not optimal, as opposed to OP where you were questioning if the behavior was sinful at all.

ETA: BTW, your arguments rationalizing adultery for people in “unloving” marriages are a real insult to the many people who do indeed endure such marriages for the sake of their children of for their religious beliefs or whatever, WITHOUT turning to an extramarital affair to fulfill their emotional needs. Or what about the heroic people whose marriages ended in civil divorce but were not found null, who secular society wouldn’t even consider to be “cheating” if they were to date and re-marry, actually seek to follow God by NOT doing so?

I’d even say that ANYONE who thinks that being in a romantic relationship is somehow essential to their well-being and happiness, is putting way too much emphasis on erotic love (which can exist even without expression in sexual intercourse), over everything else important in this life, never mind the eternal one.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Ok, married for 30 years. Gets very friendly with a member of opposite sex who is also married. No sex. But cuddles, holding hands. Comforting and loving. Both agree to no sex at all.

Both sets of partners are non loving so that is why above has happened.

Is the above adultery?

Theologically-speaking, no. Psychologically-speaking, the type of behavior you’re describing usually correlates with how cheating starts or with what cheaters do. So in a sense it would be playing with fire not to mention how the the other spouse would feel.

Here’s one article on ‘emotional affairs’ which is what you’re describing.

 

[ajecphotos]

Being human we are so weak. Not everyone can be the same. Sometimes you dont get to know someone until you live a life with them. Sometimes nothing can repare a broken marriage, nothing!

When one finds ‘real’ love then it can be extremely hard not to take hold of that and hold it close to ones heart.

Ok, it is ‘very’ wrong indeed. Very sinful. But, giving it up can prove to be almost impossible, even with very deep love of God!

God knows that everyones situation is different. Lust is one thing, love another. I am sure that God, being all loving, understands these situations and trials that we undergo in life. God wants to help us all and i am sure that he doesnt close the door to everyone who steps off the path of his law.

I truly believe that God is a caring God. One who always willing to help those that go through these problems. I truly believe that they are not doomed to hell etc as i think God throws them a helping hand. He knows what is best for us.

Nobody knows God. Nobody knows for sure how he helps us in these situations but, i for one truly think that God knows all our pains and knows what is right for each of us. Nothing is black and white in his eyes. We make mistakes. Maybe we marry the wrong people. God, i am sure helps those he feels have done this.

 

[MJJean]

Correct but if children are involved and the people want to protect them then maybe there is no other alternative! Children are the no:1 priority and should be protected 100%.

Sneaking around is not ideal but maybe the best thing under present circumstances!

Maybe waiting until the children can decide for themselves is better than blowing up everything in their faces.

WE ARE HUMAN, WE ARE WEAK, WE NEED GOD!

If a parent wants whats best for their children and is putting them first then that parent certainly isn’t out sneaking around. First, because if the other parent finds out there will be fights, drama, and quite possibly a divorce. Second, because that extra time is best spent with the children. And third, because children often know more about whats going on than we give them credit for and it’s just a bad example of how to conduct a marriage. Lastly, it’s also a bad personal example to set. Especially if the affair comes to light. At that point, all credibility with the children is shot.

Wait til the children themselves are old enough to decide? To decide what? That the parent sneaking around is lower than pond scum? Let them live a lie only to discover its a lie and begin to question everything they thought they understood about their reality?

No, human weakness taken into account, there are two options when a marriage is a disaster. Stay and work it out faithfully as best as you can or openly and honestly end the marriage on the best terms possible.

 

[styrgwillidar]

If a parent wants whats best for their children …

.

Mom and Dad provide the archetype for relationships, for how spouses treat each other to the kids. They the are example, and for a child their relationship is what the kids will see as the norm.

At a fundamental level, that is the way they will expect to be treated, and expect to treat their spouse. Although intellectually they will know people can be different, their actual experience will forever set an expectation - because to them that’s what has been real not theoretical.

Setting the expectation that their spouse will seek out other relationships behind their back; or that one should seek out other relationships behind their spouses back, is not, IMHO, what’s best for their children.

 

[ajecphotos]

Update:

Well, the woman in the relationship went see her priest (In confessional) and explained everything and he told her that ‘God loves her’, like i stated and that if it is a chaste relationship she should still go to church and still receive Holy Communion as she needs the benefits of that. He told her that he would need to see her again soon.

Obviously he didnt approve of what is going on but said that God is understanding, much like what i said.

God speaks through the priest at the confessional and i am sure that what the priest told her was from God.

The woman in question is my sister!

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Update:

Well, the woman in the relationship went see her priest (In confessional) and explained everything and he told her that ‘God loves her’, like i stated and that if it is a chaste relationship she should still go to church and still receive Holy Communion as she needs the benefits of that. He told her that he would need to see her again soon.

Obviously he didnt approve of what is going on but said that God is understanding, much like what i said.

God speaks through the priest at the confessional and i am sure that what the priest told her was from God.

The woman in question is my sister!

What the priest said is “God loves her”… yes but did he really said God approves it? Why did you think he said he needs to see her soon again? Perhaps to consult someone higher on this issue or to keep himself updated about how she is doing? If the priest told her to take Holy Communion after her confession to him, that means she is repentant from her sins after that confession. If she took Holy Communion without being repentant and continues the affair, then she answers to God herself.

Jesus has taught everything that needs to be taught about adultery, and has expanded upon it. Since when was it left to us to further expand it? I understand what you are telling us, but the fact remains true here that if the husband beats your sister, get the cops and if the marriage cannot be fixed still, get a civil divorce in order to protect herself and also to further protect the kids. If she was being beaten up, did you really think that her kids are safe? For how long?

From the 1st post til now, all I see is your persistence in your own perception of “how God should perceive”, but is it really your position to perceive for God? Adding to that, I realized that all you wanted from us is not advice but to hear what you want to hear, as if we should be in agreement with you.

1. I agree she needs to get the cops if she was beaten.
2. I agree she can get a civil divorce to protect herself and the kids from an abusive husband and father of her children.
3. I do NOT agree however that God allows an affair to take place outside of the marriage, no matter the circumstances.

As a matter of fact, in order to get intimate with another person, she needs to get a divorce, get an annulment (if the Church approves of an annulment) and remarry to that person. She has done none of that yet. Yes God is understanding but God is also righteous. If God Himself approves of it, then He is unjust and has compromised on morality.

So yes, it is still an adulterous affair and a scandal.

Please realize I have to be direct to the point with you, I don’t believe in niceties when it comes to speaking up on the truth.

 

[ajecphotos]

What you have said is correct i guess.

But, nobody knows God! Nobody ‘really’ knows what he thinks and what he does in circumstances such as those in my thread.

The priest obviously is speaking with Jesus in his heart. Only God knows each of us. Only he can say what is right and what is wrong.

Apparently the priest told her to continue to serve the church and to take communion as she needs the nourishment of Christ.

I really dont believe that you can read what is said in the bible and take it at face value, in black and white. We are human beings. Vulnerable, weak, insecure. God is ‘ALL FORGIVING’.

GOD LOVES US ALL.

We all make mistakes. Some marriages can be a mistake. God knows that.

The priest was very good with my sister. Full of compassion. He didnt slate her in any way. He didnt tell her she was doomed.