C
cestusdei
Guest
I was tempted to go to a sda church where this program was being shown. Wear my collar and cause them to squirm a bit. But I am just to busy as Easter approaches.
- Status
A
adventistnomore
Guest
PLEASE PRAY
I was informed of one woman in upstate New York (from an Adventist friend) who has just decided to leave the Catholic Church and enter Adventism… spiritually, through our prayers, she may find her sight. Please pray for her, and hundreds of other Catholics this month who are in danger of leaving the fold.
Hugo Mendez
I was informed of one woman in upstate New York (from an Adventist friend) who has just decided to leave the Catholic Church and enter Adventism… spiritually, through our prayers, she may find her sight. Please pray for her, and hundreds of other Catholics this month who are in danger of leaving the fold.
Hugo Mendez
S
SDA2RC
Guest
I watched the most recent seminar, the one from Sunday evening last night online. WOW… there were sure a lot of mis-representations as Pastor Bachelor attempted to identify the Vatican as the Anti-Christ… I had to laugh he did not use the catechism as a reference for HIS presentation of Catholic doctrine once.
My favorite part was when he said that the Vatican was talking about raising Mary to the status of Co-Redemtrix and thus making a “Holy Quad” rather than a Trinity. I about fell out of my seat.
The bad part… is that I used to believe this stuff
Hugo… were you there for Sunday Nights presentation? What did you think?Brandon
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adventistnomore
Guest
I applauded Doug’s sincerity and openheartedness. I’ve seen alot of Adventist evangelist try to muster up a disclaimer: “we’re not attacking the people, but the institution itself”… but Batchelor expressed a true love and sincerity of heart for the Church and the people. He was very brave in fact (for someone who knows he’s being watched by Adventists around the world) to say many very positive things about the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II. I was actually quite proud.
Mark Finley, a few years back, also emphasized the fact that the “apostasy” (which only Protestants conceive of) is not uniquely Catholic, but is the shared heritage of all Christians. These developements are positive in that they show an apologetic Adventism (in one sense) that is refraining from so terribly villifying the Church as they have.
(This is not simply so that they won’t turn off Catholics… they ARE well meaning. Moreover, this may help their evangelistic efforts, so we must be teaching our brothers in the faith what true catholic theology/history looks like, so that they won;t be decieved by the straw-man arguments of Adventists.)
Sadly, most of these developments have not come with a true investigation of the facts, and most of what Doug said was ABSOLUTELY misinformed. For everyone reading this post, I want to make one thing clear: don’t villanize Adventists – ALL of them are sincerely deceived, tragically misinformed, or trapped because this is the only foundation they know. The myths you heard Doug say were passed along from those who went before him, and his trust of those who taught him this message makes him completely unaware that he has inherited a lie. When I began to read the Church Fathers, those lies crumbled. All Adventists need to do the same.
As I’ve said before, pray for Doug Batchelor… Perhaps he is a Saul of Tarsus in the wings. Only God knows.
Mark Finley, a few years back, also emphasized the fact that the “apostasy” (which only Protestants conceive of) is not uniquely Catholic, but is the shared heritage of all Christians. These developements are positive in that they show an apologetic Adventism (in one sense) that is refraining from so terribly villifying the Church as they have.
(This is not simply so that they won’t turn off Catholics… they ARE well meaning. Moreover, this may help their evangelistic efforts, so we must be teaching our brothers in the faith what true catholic theology/history looks like, so that they won;t be decieved by the straw-man arguments of Adventists.)
Sadly, most of these developments have not come with a true investigation of the facts, and most of what Doug said was ABSOLUTELY misinformed. For everyone reading this post, I want to make one thing clear: don’t villanize Adventists – ALL of them are sincerely deceived, tragically misinformed, or trapped because this is the only foundation they know. The myths you heard Doug say were passed along from those who went before him, and his trust of those who taught him this message makes him completely unaware that he has inherited a lie. When I began to read the Church Fathers, those lies crumbled. All Adventists need to do the same.
As I’ve said before, pray for Doug Batchelor… Perhaps he is a Saul of Tarsus in the wings. Only God knows.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Hugo,
I was not as impressed with Bachelor as you. He is a smart guy with the ability to check his facts. Actually, as someone who claims to represent God it is his duty to check his facts when speaking of other Christians. His slander was not compassionate or caring towards Catholics, it was diabolical.
His responsiblity for his words is not diluted by the possibility of the information just being repeated by other SDA all his life. What do you think?
Brandon
I was not as impressed with Bachelor as you. He is a smart guy with the ability to check his facts. Actually, as someone who claims to represent God it is his duty to check his facts when speaking of other Christians. His slander was not compassionate or caring towards Catholics, it was diabolical.
His responsiblity for his words is not diluted by the possibility of the information just being repeated by other SDA all his life. What do you think?
Brandon
G
Gratias_Grace
Guest
Yes, and that’s why it is so sad when they manage to misinform others.
A
adventistnomore
Guest
Hm… there must be some ways for us as Catholics to hold Adventists accountable for the myths they spread about mother Church. Any ideas? I’m not sure writing them would effective… perhapd this is something I should do more with while studying at an Adventist University.
Hugo
Hugo
S
SusanL
Guest
I am so sad. My father joined the SDA when he was in his 40’s. He is now 80. He basically went from a non-church going Christian to a fervant SDA. A friend from work invited him and I think that Dad felt like people cared about him there. My mom was raising us Methodists. Turned our whole house upside down.
He doesn’t go to church anymore even though he is still a strong Christian. I’ve noticed that he has bent on a couple of their rules. He’ll drink an occasional beer and he doesn’t go to church.
I am surprised that he hasn’t condemned my becoming Catholic. I think that he probably saw it coming. He predicted it when I started playing organ at a Catholic church about 15 years ago. Took me about 10 years but I made it. I know that he believes false information about the Pope so it surprises me that he hasn’t tried to talk me out of it.
Last year, he bragged to me about a debate held at his church between the elders there and a RC priest. Another friend told him about it. According to his friend, of course, the priest “didn’t stand a chance.” I didn’t argue with him. I figured either his friend didn’t really listen, the priest didn’t know all the answers, or the priest knew that these people weren’t going to listen. Probably a combination of the first and last.
I doubt that I’d have a snowball’s chance of convincing him. I’m glad that he’s at least Christian and loves God.
He doesn’t go to church anymore even though he is still a strong Christian. I’ve noticed that he has bent on a couple of their rules. He’ll drink an occasional beer and he doesn’t go to church.
I am surprised that he hasn’t condemned my becoming Catholic. I think that he probably saw it coming. He predicted it when I started playing organ at a Catholic church about 15 years ago. Took me about 10 years but I made it. I know that he believes false information about the Pope so it surprises me that he hasn’t tried to talk me out of it.
Last year, he bragged to me about a debate held at his church between the elders there and a RC priest. Another friend told him about it. According to his friend, of course, the priest “didn’t stand a chance.” I didn’t argue with him. I figured either his friend didn’t really listen, the priest didn’t know all the answers, or the priest knew that these people weren’t going to listen. Probably a combination of the first and last.
I doubt that I’d have a snowball’s chance of convincing him. I’m glad that he’s at least Christian and loves God.
S
sdabeliever
Guest
The SDA church goes by the Bible. Everything they preach is strictly by the Bible and there is proof for all of it. Yes they do believe in the prophet Ellen G. White but before you are quick to cast judgement you should look into what the Bible says about prophets and at what eye witnesses say about E. G. White. To even my shock a lot of what she has said would happen has. I’m not a judgemental person and im not going to judge anyone in this forum. I still have a lot to learn. Hopefully you to learn more. You can never know enough. Sadly some people think that saying your a believer is enough… but there is a differnce between saying and being a believer. The SDA church is as honest a forward as they can be. Some may think that they are stuck up and rude, which they can be I’m not going to lie to you. Luckily we have Doug Bachelor and other pastors out there not afraid to open their mouths and let the true words of the Holy Spirit flow through. I think people should give the church a second look. You might find the truth that was missing all along. I hope you find it.
P.S.
Just so everyone knows I’m a teenager that loves God and wants the world to feel his powerfull love. Although I might be perceived as well a know it all. I’m not. I don’t know it all but with God’s help I will know more than ever. Keep in mind I’m the adverage teen that faces adverage challenges day to day. I have to think about what is right and wrong. And face my bad choices. Thankfully God forgives. Please think more about the SDA church were good people.
P.S.
Just so everyone knows I’m a teenager that loves God and wants the world to feel his powerfull love. Although I might be perceived as well a know it all. I’m not. I don’t know it all but with God’s help I will know more than ever. Keep in mind I’m the adverage teen that faces adverage challenges day to day. I have to think about what is right and wrong. And face my bad choices. Thankfully God forgives. Please think more about the SDA church were good people.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Hi!
My best friend is SDA and I love him dearly and we’re like brothers. He doesn’t bash my faith and I don’t nail him about his.
That said. It’s really hard to be kind to other people from a religion that consistently misrepresents my faith. I’ve read E.G. White’s book “The Great Controversy” and tossed it into the trash after I finished the 5th chapter and had filled the margins with notes in red ink that were answers to historical inaccuracies as well as outright lies about what we believe and why we believe them. Ellen White made statements about the pope’s title (Just for instance) and alleged that it added up to 666. The bad part is that the title she used is NOT a papal title at all. However…in using her own system of numerology and applying it to her name the result actually is 666. This is just one inaccuracy that I will point out to you.
Next I will ask you just what the heck you’re doing here on a Catholic forum? If you are here to present SDA rhetoric and atempt to convert Catholics…let me recommend that you forget it right now. You will not find a receptive audience here. Mainly because we have heard it all before and we aren’t buying.
Now…just what was it that you came here for?
Pax vobiscum,
My best friend is SDA and I love him dearly and we’re like brothers. He doesn’t bash my faith and I don’t nail him about his.
That said. It’s really hard to be kind to other people from a religion that consistently misrepresents my faith. I’ve read E.G. White’s book “The Great Controversy” and tossed it into the trash after I finished the 5th chapter and had filled the margins with notes in red ink that were answers to historical inaccuracies as well as outright lies about what we believe and why we believe them. Ellen White made statements about the pope’s title (Just for instance) and alleged that it added up to 666. The bad part is that the title she used is NOT a papal title at all. However…in using her own system of numerology and applying it to her name the result actually is 666. This is just one inaccuracy that I will point out to you.
Next I will ask you just what the heck you’re doing here on a Catholic forum? If you are here to present SDA rhetoric and atempt to convert Catholics…let me recommend that you forget it right now. You will not find a receptive audience here. Mainly because we have heard it all before and we aren’t buying.
Now…just what was it that you came here for?
Pax vobiscum,
B
boppysbud
Guest
F
Faith_Shadow
Guest
Hey cowboys and cowgirls. Before reading on, please know that I am an SDA and that I once attended a Catholic church, but never studied to be a Catholic officially. With that in mind, in comment to Boppysbud post:
Although Ellen White is certainly an incredible inspiration, and I think she was used by God, I decided to join the SDA church and reject Catholicism before I actually heard about her. Why? Because I am convinced it teaches the Bible truth. I’m not saying this church doesn’t have her problems, especially with work-oriented salvation and heavy handeness toward non-members, cause I think she does have big problem. But one thing I know about SDA theology is that even if it is wrong in the great scheme of things about God, it is a correct and accurate picture of Christianity. It is the closest thing to the Bible you’re going to get in the world today. That’s why I joined.
Before going on, it’s a pretty silly argument to say Catholics only leave the church because they don’t get trained well enough in doctrines… isn’t that the same silly argument someone could make the other way? “SDAs only leave the church because they are untrained and unlearned in the doctrines?” Why don’t we get passed the fallacies (name calling, e.g., “you’re ignorant or stupid, and that’s why you left our church, cause if you know what we know, then you would believe like we do” … who comes up with arguments like that anymore anyway?)
However, on to boppysbud email …
“The Bible does not each veganism …”
“Christians are to worship on the Jewish sabbath. …”
Still, I am sorry if you have run into Adventists who say that you will burn in hell for worshipping on Sunday. I don’t know of any Adventist scholar who would ever say that or believe. It’s not the case at all. Millions of faithful who didn’t or don;t know any better will be in heaven. However, if the Bible says Sabbath and the church says Sunday, you might ask yourself why? People who know about the Sabbath, but refuse to honor it, are in a different class than those who were ignorant of God’s Word. For if someone neglects God’s Sabbath, they reject God and His Commandments. That’s a problem.
(PLEASE SEE MY NEXT POST BEFORE RESPONDING. I WENT ON TOO LONG IN THIS ONE!)
Although Ellen White is certainly an incredible inspiration, and I think she was used by God, I decided to join the SDA church and reject Catholicism before I actually heard about her. Why? Because I am convinced it teaches the Bible truth. I’m not saying this church doesn’t have her problems, especially with work-oriented salvation and heavy handeness toward non-members, cause I think she does have big problem. But one thing I know about SDA theology is that even if it is wrong in the great scheme of things about God, it is a correct and accurate picture of Christianity. It is the closest thing to the Bible you’re going to get in the world today. That’s why I joined.
Before going on, it’s a pretty silly argument to say Catholics only leave the church because they don’t get trained well enough in doctrines… isn’t that the same silly argument someone could make the other way? “SDAs only leave the church because they are untrained and unlearned in the doctrines?” Why don’t we get passed the fallacies (name calling, e.g., “you’re ignorant or stupid, and that’s why you left our church, cause if you know what we know, then you would believe like we do” … who comes up with arguments like that anymore anyway?)
However, on to boppysbud email …
“The Bible does not each veganism …”
- Adventism doesn’t teach veganism as entrance into heaven. It promotes it as the best lifestyle based on God’s original diet. Some Adventists eat meat, and although some other Adventists are pests about being judgmental about meat eaters, it is not a doctrine that determines one’s salvation. However, veganism is by far the most healthy diet you can have. That’s science. Adventism teaches that we are to treat our bodies as God’s temple … that means, not drinking alcohol, smoking, or eating unclean or otherwise unsanitary meat, refined sugar, etc. that is particularly bad for you. I am curious to know why Catholics give a pass to alcohol, a consumate killer that God calls a “mocker.”
“Christians are to worship on the Jewish sabbath. …”
- The Sabbath isn’t Jewish. The Bible says it was made for mankind … all of humanity. It was established at Creation (Gen 2:1-3). Jesus, the agent of Creation (Eph. 3:9), says in Revelation that the basis of all worship is that God (Jesus) created us. God’s final message is to worship the Creator (Rev. 14). We worship him properly by keeping His santioned Sabbath (Ex. 20:8-11). Jesus faithfully kept the Sabbath. He said the Sabbath would be kept 70 years in advance when He said Jerusalem would be destroyed.
Still, I am sorry if you have run into Adventists who say that you will burn in hell for worshipping on Sunday. I don’t know of any Adventist scholar who would ever say that or believe. It’s not the case at all. Millions of faithful who didn’t or don;t know any better will be in heaven. However, if the Bible says Sabbath and the church says Sunday, you might ask yourself why? People who know about the Sabbath, but refuse to honor it, are in a different class than those who were ignorant of God’s Word. For if someone neglects God’s Sabbath, they reject God and His Commandments. That’s a problem.
(PLEASE SEE MY NEXT POST BEFORE RESPONDING. I WENT ON TOO LONG IN THIS ONE!)
F
Faith_Shadow
Guest
<Continued from a previous post. Please read it all before responding! I want go over again, I promise!>
"The Bible does not teach ‘soul sleep’ " …
It is a hard teaching for many, but it is the correct one. Jesus taught it (John 11:11-14). Only God has immortality, so souls do not (1 Tim. 6:16). The dead do not praise God (Ps. 115:17; see also Ps. 6:5). David is still in the grave (Acts 2:34). The dead know not anything (Eccl 9:5). The “soul” who sins, dies (Ezek 18:4).
I’m sorry if some Adventist has said you will burn for believing differently. That is not the case. Any Adventist who says you will burn for thinking people go on immediately after death is teaching error. However, “soul-sleep” is biblical, as shown above. And I have more passages if you want one.
The importance of this doctrine is so that we will not be deceived in the end-time or by demons who which to teach lies to us in the guise of loved ones who have died. I have lost a brother and a mother (a Catholic) and I know that if she were to ever appear before me, it would not really be her. It is actually a great comfort to me that my brother and mom are in their graves, awaiting the resurrection. It is a funny thing to say that people live on after the grave, either to heaven or purgatory or hell, then say they will be ressureccted when Christ comes back. (All people are resurrected, either to eternal life or eternal damnation.)
I know I have gone on and on, but I will stop here if I am offending you. If you would like me to continue with a rebuttle to the post I have been commenting on, please say so. If not, I’ll stop. It’s best not to get into too many particular doctrines, but I responded because I know this church and its teachings, and flat rebuttles such as the one given by Boppysbud is misleading. So here I have put down some proper Bible passages and await your reply.
May God bless you, my friends. And if I don’t meet you here in this world, I hope to see you in the next. Because God forbid that this family in Christ believe the other not deserving … because none of us are. Not me as an Adventist, not you as a Catholic. We will be in heaven because Christ first loved us, and that was so beautiiful that you and I could do nothing else but love Him back. May all of humanity love Him back. And may the light that is true set all of us on the right path. Amen.
"The Bible does not teach ‘soul sleep’ " …
It is a hard teaching for many, but it is the correct one. Jesus taught it (John 11:11-14). Only God has immortality, so souls do not (1 Tim. 6:16). The dead do not praise God (Ps. 115:17; see also Ps. 6:5). David is still in the grave (Acts 2:34). The dead know not anything (Eccl 9:5). The “soul” who sins, dies (Ezek 18:4).
I’m sorry if some Adventist has said you will burn for believing differently. That is not the case. Any Adventist who says you will burn for thinking people go on immediately after death is teaching error. However, “soul-sleep” is biblical, as shown above. And I have more passages if you want one.
The importance of this doctrine is so that we will not be deceived in the end-time or by demons who which to teach lies to us in the guise of loved ones who have died. I have lost a brother and a mother (a Catholic) and I know that if she were to ever appear before me, it would not really be her. It is actually a great comfort to me that my brother and mom are in their graves, awaiting the resurrection. It is a funny thing to say that people live on after the grave, either to heaven or purgatory or hell, then say they will be ressureccted when Christ comes back. (All people are resurrected, either to eternal life or eternal damnation.)
I know I have gone on and on, but I will stop here if I am offending you. If you would like me to continue with a rebuttle to the post I have been commenting on, please say so. If not, I’ll stop. It’s best not to get into too many particular doctrines, but I responded because I know this church and its teachings, and flat rebuttles such as the one given by Boppysbud is misleading. So here I have put down some proper Bible passages and await your reply.
May God bless you, my friends. And if I don’t meet you here in this world, I hope to see you in the next. Because God forbid that this family in Christ believe the other not deserving … because none of us are. Not me as an Adventist, not you as a Catholic. We will be in heaven because Christ first loved us, and that was so beautiiful that you and I could do nothing else but love Him back. May all of humanity love Him back. And may the light that is true set all of us on the right path. Amen.
J
JackmanUSC
Guest
I emailed these guys to see what their claims are. does anyone who is more theologically schooled than myself have something I can send in return?
Original query-So, you say that the Catholic Church has no authority that was entrusted to it by Christ. Even though in Matt 16:18 Jesus says that Peter is the rock upon which his church would be built. Also he was not inferring anything else because the Aramaic is clearly inferring it. Also We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). How do you call our church non-christian and proclaim our Bishops to be working for evil?
REPLY FROM THESE GUYS:
"Because of the wording of this texts, Papal authorities go so far as to say that God is bound by the orders of men. The facts are just the reverse. A study of the Greek tense of this verb renders it like this: “shall have been bound.” In other words, the Spirit prompts us to confirm what has already been decided in heaven. (Just as the Spirit prompted Peter to say Jesus was the Christ.)
The keys of heaven belong to anyone who confesses Jesus as their Messiah. Notice in verse 17, Jesus said “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus–and our confession of Him–is the bedrock upon which the church is built (1 Cor. 3:11). As believers, we are like little stones stacked together upon this solid foundation. Peter–whose name means “stone”–freely admits he is not the only one. “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 2:5.
The papacy fulfills the characteristics of the beast because it claims to have powers that only Christ has. For instance, an official Catholic source, The Question and Answer Catholic catechism, says, “All bishops and priests have the power to forgive sins or absolve sins.” Also Reverend John O’Brien in the “The Faith of Millions” makes this statement on the Catholic catechism: “When the pope in his official capacity, with the fullness of his authority, as successor of St. Peter and head of the church on earth, proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals binding on the whole Church, he is preserved from error.” Also, by its actions in attempting to change the ten commandments (dropping the second commandment regarding worshipping images, and changing the sacredness of Sabbath to Sunday) the papacy has tried to take a role that only God should have.
The fact is that the Catholic church has compromised much with tradition and has embraced many non-biblical aspects in its theology. This is freely admitted by the leadership of the Catholic church. Please understand that in sharing these facts of church history we are talking about the system and teachings as defective and not the Catholic people as individuals, many of whom are wonderful Christians. There are many beautiful Catholic Christians, priests, bishops and Cardinals who are truly dedicated to the service of God. But one doesn’t have to go very far back into the Catholic history to see that many Christians were tortured for their faith by this very system. Pope John II publicly apologized for those atrocities in March of 2000. You can see part of his speech which follows.
*Pope John Paul II issued a broad apology last Sunday, March 12, for **sins committed by the church throughout the ages, including those against the Jews. ***
*The apology took the form of a joint confession by the Pope and other cardinals, interspersed by Catholics prayers and gestures. *
*The confession began with the Pope and rotated between him and other cardinals. *
*The following is a near complete text of the confession, with translation provided by the Vatican. Omitted are frequent references to the Deity after the Catholic fashion. *
*The Pope began: *
*“Brothers and Sisters, let us turn with trust to God our Father, who is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, great in love and fidelity, and ask him to accept the repentance of his people who humbly confess their sins, and to grant them mercy.” *
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
Original query-So, you say that the Catholic Church has no authority that was entrusted to it by Christ. Even though in Matt 16:18 Jesus says that Peter is the rock upon which his church would be built. Also he was not inferring anything else because the Aramaic is clearly inferring it. Also We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). How do you call our church non-christian and proclaim our Bishops to be working for evil?
REPLY FROM THESE GUYS:
"Because of the wording of this texts, Papal authorities go so far as to say that God is bound by the orders of men. The facts are just the reverse. A study of the Greek tense of this verb renders it like this: “shall have been bound.” In other words, the Spirit prompts us to confirm what has already been decided in heaven. (Just as the Spirit prompted Peter to say Jesus was the Christ.)
The keys of heaven belong to anyone who confesses Jesus as their Messiah. Notice in verse 17, Jesus said “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus–and our confession of Him–is the bedrock upon which the church is built (1 Cor. 3:11). As believers, we are like little stones stacked together upon this solid foundation. Peter–whose name means “stone”–freely admits he is not the only one. “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 2:5.
The papacy fulfills the characteristics of the beast because it claims to have powers that only Christ has. For instance, an official Catholic source, The Question and Answer Catholic catechism, says, “All bishops and priests have the power to forgive sins or absolve sins.” Also Reverend John O’Brien in the “The Faith of Millions” makes this statement on the Catholic catechism: “When the pope in his official capacity, with the fullness of his authority, as successor of St. Peter and head of the church on earth, proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals binding on the whole Church, he is preserved from error.” Also, by its actions in attempting to change the ten commandments (dropping the second commandment regarding worshipping images, and changing the sacredness of Sabbath to Sunday) the papacy has tried to take a role that only God should have.
The fact is that the Catholic church has compromised much with tradition and has embraced many non-biblical aspects in its theology. This is freely admitted by the leadership of the Catholic church. Please understand that in sharing these facts of church history we are talking about the system and teachings as defective and not the Catholic people as individuals, many of whom are wonderful Christians. There are many beautiful Catholic Christians, priests, bishops and Cardinals who are truly dedicated to the service of God. But one doesn’t have to go very far back into the Catholic history to see that many Christians were tortured for their faith by this very system. Pope John II publicly apologized for those atrocities in March of 2000. You can see part of his speech which follows.
*Pope John Paul II issued a broad apology last Sunday, March 12, for **sins committed by the church throughout the ages, including those against the Jews. ***
*The apology took the form of a joint confession by the Pope and other cardinals, interspersed by Catholics prayers and gestures. *
*The confession began with the Pope and rotated between him and other cardinals. *
*The following is a near complete text of the confession, with translation provided by the Vatican. Omitted are frequent references to the Deity after the Catholic fashion. *
*The Pope began: *
*“Brothers and Sisters, let us turn with trust to God our Father, who is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, great in love and fidelity, and ask him to accept the repentance of his people who humbly confess their sins, and to grant them mercy.” *
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
J
JackmanUSC
Guest
CONTINUED
*Next came Cardinal Bernardin Gantin: *
*“Let us pray that our confession and repentance will be inspired by the Holy Spirit, that our sorrow will be conscious and deep, and that, humbly viewing the sins of the past in an authentic “purification of memory,”, we will be committed to the path of true conversion.” *
*The Pope: *
*" . . . your pilgrim Church . . . counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women." *
*Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: **“Let us pray that each one of us . . . meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth.” *
Rev. 14:18 says: “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”
Latin is the official language of the Catholic Church. The pope, in Catholic theology, stands for the whole church. One of his titles is said to be Vicarius Filii Dei, “Vicar of the Son of God.” This has been verified in their own literature. (Our Sunday Visitor, Apr. 18, 1915) This title is on the triple tiara that is used for the coronation of the pope.
A serious study of the biblical description of the persecuting church will show:
God bless you as you seek to please God with all your heart and soul. I can see you are stirred, we all are, for soon this world will be no more and a far better land will be our home. Please understand that it is the system and teachings that we see as defective, and that nothing we say here is directed towards the Catholic members themselves for they are precious in God’s sight and He loves them deeply.
KL Owen
Amazing Facts"
*Next came Cardinal Bernardin Gantin: *
*“Let us pray that our confession and repentance will be inspired by the Holy Spirit, that our sorrow will be conscious and deep, and that, humbly viewing the sins of the past in an authentic “purification of memory,”, we will be committed to the path of true conversion.” *
*The Pope: *
*" . . . your pilgrim Church . . . counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women." *
*Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: **“Let us pray that each one of us . . . meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth.” *
Rev. 14:18 says: “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”
Latin is the official language of the Catholic Church. The pope, in Catholic theology, stands for the whole church. One of his titles is said to be Vicarius Filii Dei, “Vicar of the Son of God.” This has been verified in their own literature. (Our Sunday Visitor, Apr. 18, 1915) This title is on the triple tiara that is used for the coronation of the pope.
A serious study of the biblical description of the persecuting church will show:
- It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman empire (after 476 A.D.), (Daniel 7:7, 8)
- It will be a geographically small nation (“little horn”) (Daniel 7:8)
- It will rule over many people, nations and tongues (it will be universal) (Revelation 17:15)
- It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills (Rome is located on seven hills.) (Revelation 17:9)
- It will be a religio-political entity a political city-state that is ruled by a priest-king. (Revelation 17:3 A beast symbolizes political power, and a woman symbolizes a religious power)
- Its priest-king will make great and blasphemous claims. (Daniel 7:25)
- It will claim authority over all kings (Revelation 14:8)
- It will claim to have power to change the times and laws God set as its mark of authority. (Daniel 7:25).
- It will be an apostate church that makes the nations drink her cup of apostate doctrine. (Revelation 17:4)
- It will be a “mother” church with apostate daughters coming from her. (Revelation 17:5)
- It will be a persecuting power, killing the faithful saints of Jesus Christ as heretics. (Revelation 17:6)
- It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome. (Daniel 7:25).
- It will suffer a deadly wound that will end 1260 years of dominance and persecution, and when it is revived after the deadly wound all the world will wonder at its revival. (Revelation 13:3)
God bless you as you seek to please God with all your heart and soul. I can see you are stirred, we all are, for soon this world will be no more and a far better land will be our home. Please understand that it is the system and teachings that we see as defective, and that nothing we say here is directed towards the Catholic members themselves for they are precious in God’s sight and He loves them deeply.
KL Owen
Amazing Facts"
B
boppysbud
Guest
Well F&S I see that you completely ignored most of the issues I raised in my original post.
It is fact that SDAs absolutely hate and lie about the Catholic Church. They do call us “the great whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the Beast”. They lie when they say that we dropped one of the ten commandments. They lie when they claim that the Papal triple tiara is inscribed “Vicarious Filii Dei” which supposedly eqauls 666. BTW no pope since John the XXIIIrd way back in the '60’s has even worn this pieace of headgear, it has been permanently discarded.
The SDAs are dishonest in holding their “prophecy seminars” away from SDA churches, and never announcing until the end thier SDA affiliation, they are likewise dishonest in never publishing the SDA affiliation of thier media and print outlets. Copies of “the Great Controversy” do not list the SDA as publisher, and most editions do not even give Ellen Gould White as the author.
It is fact that SDAs absolutely hate and lie about the Catholic Church. They do call us “the great whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the Beast”. They lie when they say that we dropped one of the ten commandments. They lie when they claim that the Papal triple tiara is inscribed “Vicarious Filii Dei” which supposedly eqauls 666. BTW no pope since John the XXIIIrd way back in the '60’s has even worn this pieace of headgear, it has been permanently discarded.
The SDAs are dishonest in holding their “prophecy seminars” away from SDA churches, and never announcing until the end thier SDA affiliation, they are likewise dishonest in never publishing the SDA affiliation of thier media and print outlets. Copies of “the Great Controversy” do not list the SDA as publisher, and most editions do not even give Ellen Gould White as the author.
B
boppysbud
Guest
Likewise Catholic Christians ackowledge the difference between Judaism and Christianity. We do not differentiate between “clean and unclean” meats since that was a part of the Old Testament *JEWISH kosher *law. Not to mention the vision God gave Peter of a sheet filled with all kinds of “unclean” meats, told Peter that “nothing I have made is unclean” and commanded him to “Kill and eat”.
I beg to differ with you on the Jewish sabbath as well. It too comes from the Old Testament law, given speciffically to Jews only and not all of humanity.
I also differ with you on the soul sleep doctrine which typically of SDAs and other cults is formulated by snatching proof texts from context. You ignored the other two heretical doctrines completely, the “scapegoat” doctrine, and the “investigative judgement” doctrine.
And BTW I have encountered many SDAs who openly stated that worshipping on Sunday instead of the JEWISH sabbath will not send you to hell, but will lead to your being anihalated at the ressurection. You and I both know that SDAs do not even beleive in Hell.
All SDAs I have spoken with have stated that they are the only “true remnant” church and that all others are “apostate”. I also know that SDAs think that God does not hear the prayers of an “apostate” but only prayers from SDAs.
I beg to differ with you on the Jewish sabbath as well. It too comes from the Old Testament law, given speciffically to Jews only and not all of humanity.
I also differ with you on the soul sleep doctrine which typically of SDAs and other cults is formulated by snatching proof texts from context. You ignored the other two heretical doctrines completely, the “scapegoat” doctrine, and the “investigative judgement” doctrine.
And BTW I have encountered many SDAs who openly stated that worshipping on Sunday instead of the JEWISH sabbath will not send you to hell, but will lead to your being anihalated at the ressurection. You and I both know that SDAs do not even beleive in Hell.
All SDAs I have spoken with have stated that they are the only “true remnant” church and that all others are “apostate”. I also know that SDAs think that God does not hear the prayers of an “apostate” but only prayers from SDAs.
S
Stephen_Korsman
Guest
F
Faith_Shadow
Guest
Buddy Said: “Likewise Catholic Christians ackowledge the difference between Judaism and Christianity. We do not differentiate between “clean and unclean” meats since that was a part of the Old Testament *JEWISH kosher *law. Not to mention the vision God gave Peter of a sheet filled with all kinds of “unclean” meats, told Peter that “nothing I have made is unclean” and commanded him to “Kill and eat”.”
F&S says:
Have you actually read the full account of the sheet-vision God gave Peter? Peter did not think the gospel of Christ should go to the gentiles. One evening, God sends him this vision. And even though Peter is a Christian, he refuses to eat unclean food. God says, “Do not call unclean what I have called clean.” Guess who Peter meets up with first after this vision? Gentiles! Food HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS VISION! Peter even struggles with what the vision meant, becuase he knows God isn’t actually saying to eat unclean food. It becomes CLEAR to him what the vision actually means when he meets the gentiles that the gospel should also go to them. (Think back to Jesus when he said not giving food to the dogs, and the lady responding by wanting to eat the scraps. Dogs were likened to gentiles as being unclean … you see the connection?!) I urge you to read the entire passage … it becomes crystal clear that it has nothing to do with food, and everything about sharing Christ with the world.
My other question would be, why would this food suddenly be okay to eat? Why just for the Jews? What about the food made it unhealthy for the Jews and not the rest of the world? At the Ark of Noah, that is, prior to Abraham, the first Jew, God divided between clean and unclean animals. (Clean animals by sevens, unclean by two. Have you ever thought why God said more clean animals? Cause they would be eating clean animals!) So clearly, clean and unclean come before Jews even enter the picture. So it cannot be just to the Jews.
Buddy Said: I beg to differ with you on the Jewish sabbath as well. It too comes from the Old Testament law, given speciffically to Jews only and not all of humanity.
F&S says,
Where is your Bible proof on this? I gave you text that explicity shows the Sabbath isn’t just for the Jews, but for all humanity. It is not enough to say, “I beg to differ.” I showed you from God’s word why the Seventh-day Sabbath is the Sabbath of our God. All you have said is “I beg to differ.”
Buddy Says:
“I also differ with you on the soul sleep doctrine which typically of SDAs and other cults is formulated by snatching proof texts from context.”
F&S says:
You say this a lot, but you don’t show why or how. How can you call this a well-reasoned defense? It takes a small-minded person to label others as cults, especially when I’m using the Bible to show you my beliefs. It’s sad, and it’s unbecoming to a Christian to do so. Perhaps we should stick to debating the issue, and not name-calling? What do you say?
Buddy Says:
“You ignored the other two heretical doctrines completely, the “scapegoat” doctrine, and the “investigative judgement” doctrine.”
F&S says:
I didn’t ignore it. If you read my post, I skipped them because I had already written too much. (There is a limit on this posting board.) If you want to talk about them, we can do that. But, before I go on … I’ll post this. See my next post.
F&S says:
Have you actually read the full account of the sheet-vision God gave Peter? Peter did not think the gospel of Christ should go to the gentiles. One evening, God sends him this vision. And even though Peter is a Christian, he refuses to eat unclean food. God says, “Do not call unclean what I have called clean.” Guess who Peter meets up with first after this vision? Gentiles! Food HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS VISION! Peter even struggles with what the vision meant, becuase he knows God isn’t actually saying to eat unclean food. It becomes CLEAR to him what the vision actually means when he meets the gentiles that the gospel should also go to them. (Think back to Jesus when he said not giving food to the dogs, and the lady responding by wanting to eat the scraps. Dogs were likened to gentiles as being unclean … you see the connection?!) I urge you to read the entire passage … it becomes crystal clear that it has nothing to do with food, and everything about sharing Christ with the world.
My other question would be, why would this food suddenly be okay to eat? Why just for the Jews? What about the food made it unhealthy for the Jews and not the rest of the world? At the Ark of Noah, that is, prior to Abraham, the first Jew, God divided between clean and unclean animals. (Clean animals by sevens, unclean by two. Have you ever thought why God said more clean animals? Cause they would be eating clean animals!) So clearly, clean and unclean come before Jews even enter the picture. So it cannot be just to the Jews.
Buddy Said: I beg to differ with you on the Jewish sabbath as well. It too comes from the Old Testament law, given speciffically to Jews only and not all of humanity.
F&S says,
Where is your Bible proof on this? I gave you text that explicity shows the Sabbath isn’t just for the Jews, but for all humanity. It is not enough to say, “I beg to differ.” I showed you from God’s word why the Seventh-day Sabbath is the Sabbath of our God. All you have said is “I beg to differ.”
Buddy Says:
“I also differ with you on the soul sleep doctrine which typically of SDAs and other cults is formulated by snatching proof texts from context.”
F&S says:
You say this a lot, but you don’t show why or how. How can you call this a well-reasoned defense? It takes a small-minded person to label others as cults, especially when I’m using the Bible to show you my beliefs. It’s sad, and it’s unbecoming to a Christian to do so. Perhaps we should stick to debating the issue, and not name-calling? What do you say?
Buddy Says:
“You ignored the other two heretical doctrines completely, the “scapegoat” doctrine, and the “investigative judgement” doctrine.”
F&S says:
I didn’t ignore it. If you read my post, I skipped them because I had already written too much. (There is a limit on this posting board.) If you want to talk about them, we can do that. But, before I go on … I’ll post this. See my next post.
F
Faith_Shadow
Guest
Buddy Says:
“And BTW I have encountered many SDAs who openly stated that worshipping on Sunday instead of the JEWISH sabbath will not send you to hell, but will lead to your being anihalated at the ressurection. You and I both know that SDAs do not even beleive in Hell.”
F&S says:
It is very sad that SDAs have said this, but it is not an accurate picture of what the church teaches. (Are you not really reading my posts?) Would you please show me where we say there is no hell? Will you show me where we say that worshipping on Sunday will have you burning for all eternity in hell-fire?
You also might want to get your facts straight about SDA beliefs. SDAs do believe in hell, we just don’t believe that the God we worship is so cruel as to send people to torture for eternity. That’s just not a reasonable or biblical idea. As I said, it is not that you will go to hell for worshipping on Sunday (I worship on Sunday, by the way, with Bible study and prayer), but for rejecting the fourth commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Many people who don’t keep the Sabbath will be in heaven, but those who know about it … people who call themselves followers of Christ but deny His perfect will, are the ones who are in stark danger of being damned. You might want to address this point, instead of returning to a red-herring, or a strawman. I’m an SDA, I know what the church teaches, and believe you, you don’t have it right!
Buddy Said:
“All SDAs I have spoken with have stated that they are the only “true remnant” church and that all others are “apostate”. I also know that SDAs think that God does not hear the prayers of an “apostate” but only prayers from SDAs.”
F&S says:
I believe the SDA church is a part of God’s remnant chuch, but I also believe God has His people in every church and religion on earth. God hears the prayers of every soul, and answers those prayers in hopes of reaching those souls. The prayers He especially rejects are from those who confess Christ but dishonor Him, the prayers of hypocrites and self-righteous, and the vain repetitions of prayers. Can you show me where our church teaching says that God only hears the prayers of SDAs? Can you show me where our church teaches that all others are apostate? If you can’t, you might need to refrain from making unwarranted, untrue claims.
I’ll respond to the Pope’s head dress in the next post.
“And BTW I have encountered many SDAs who openly stated that worshipping on Sunday instead of the JEWISH sabbath will not send you to hell, but will lead to your being anihalated at the ressurection. You and I both know that SDAs do not even beleive in Hell.”
F&S says:
It is very sad that SDAs have said this, but it is not an accurate picture of what the church teaches. (Are you not really reading my posts?) Would you please show me where we say there is no hell? Will you show me where we say that worshipping on Sunday will have you burning for all eternity in hell-fire?
You also might want to get your facts straight about SDA beliefs. SDAs do believe in hell, we just don’t believe that the God we worship is so cruel as to send people to torture for eternity. That’s just not a reasonable or biblical idea. As I said, it is not that you will go to hell for worshipping on Sunday (I worship on Sunday, by the way, with Bible study and prayer), but for rejecting the fourth commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Many people who don’t keep the Sabbath will be in heaven, but those who know about it … people who call themselves followers of Christ but deny His perfect will, are the ones who are in stark danger of being damned. You might want to address this point, instead of returning to a red-herring, or a strawman. I’m an SDA, I know what the church teaches, and believe you, you don’t have it right!
Buddy Said:
“All SDAs I have spoken with have stated that they are the only “true remnant” church and that all others are “apostate”. I also know that SDAs think that God does not hear the prayers of an “apostate” but only prayers from SDAs.”
F&S says:
I believe the SDA church is a part of God’s remnant chuch, but I also believe God has His people in every church and religion on earth. God hears the prayers of every soul, and answers those prayers in hopes of reaching those souls. The prayers He especially rejects are from those who confess Christ but dishonor Him, the prayers of hypocrites and self-righteous, and the vain repetitions of prayers. Can you show me where our church teaching says that God only hears the prayers of SDAs? Can you show me where our church teaches that all others are apostate? If you can’t, you might need to refrain from making unwarranted, untrue claims.
I’ll respond to the Pope’s head dress in the next post.
- Status