Adventist Evangelism

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boppysbud:
Well F&S I see that you completely ignored most of the issues I raised in my original post.

It is fact that SDAs absolutely hate and lie about the Catholic Church. They do call us “the great whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the Beast”. They lie when they say that we dropped one of the ten commandments. They lie when they claim that the Papal triple tiara is inscribed “Vicarious Filii Dei” which supposedly eqauls 666. BTW no pope since John the XXIIIrd way back in the '60’s has even worn this pieace of headgear, it has been permanently discarded.

The SDAs are dishonest in holding their “prophecy seminars” away from SDA churches, and never announcing until the end thier SDA affiliation, they are likewise dishonest in never publishing the SDA affiliation of thier media and print outlets. Copies of “the Great Controversy” do not list the SDA as publisher, and most editions do not even give Ellen Gould White as the author.
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Why do you say I ignore issues when in my last post I wanted to try to stick to a few points at a time. Are you just being mean?

I am an SDA, and I do not hate or lie about Catholics. Have I acted in anyway to the contrary with you? Do you know my mother was a Catholic? Why would I hate Catholics? I used to go to their churches! I used to be in love with a Catholic. I’m sorry you have run into some bad SDAs, but do you think there are SDAs who’ve had bad encounters with Catholics? You are speaking things which don’t really say anything at all, and are basically lies. I plead with you to stop and deal with the Bible and the facts of doctrine, instead of making claims that are really just name calling and “I told you so” assertions.

You are somewhat accurate in your picture of what the SDAs believe about the Catholic Church, but still quite off the mark. It is the beast power of Revelation (the pope is not the beast, per se, but the leader of the beast power … which in Bible prophecy is a government power, which the Papacy is). I used to go to a Catholic church, and the commandment posted there are quite different than the ones in the Bible. If that’s changed, fine. But do you even know which command the Catholic at one time dropped, then split the last one into two. Hey, even the Luthern church I went to had the Catholic church version posted!

Here’s the problem with SDA evangelism. People, like my dad, call SDAs a cult. (That’s why I never went to an SDA church or seminar.) Then one day, I get a flier in the mail about prophecy, and I go to it. And lo and behold, they actually can teach from the Bible and the Bible alone to show they have the truth. I knew this was the church, and guess what … it was SDA. I’m glad I didn’t know. And if they tell you in the end, then it isn’t being dishonest, it’s being open. ABout the Great Controversy, how many people would even beging to open it and review its claims if it had “CULT” written on it?

But I agree. I think SDAs should be more open and not afraid to say who we are. I mean, doing so basically means that no one will come, but you know … there is enough material out there that no one has any excuse. If you refuse to investigate because you are led around and dogged by the word cult, like I was, then you have more troubles.

I tell you what, you stop hiding behind the label cult and other red herrings, and stick to the facts of doctrines and not illogical fallacies about “SDAs hate Catholics” and other bogus claims, and act like a well-reasoned, well-minded, loving Christian, and I just might still be inetersted in the ongoing debate between SDA and Catholics. The problem right now if that you are just saying things, without really showing them. So get out your Bible … let’s open THOSE up, and see what we come up with.

Because I promise you, friend, you do that and we have nothing else to do but ultimately find God’s will together. And if you show me why Catholicism is God’s church, then I will gladly join. But I will not be moved my name calling and false assertions. I want a reason to believe. So give me that.
 
Stephen Korsman:
They lie when they claim that the Papal triple tiara is inscribed “Vicarious Filii Dei” which supposedly eqauls 666. BTW no pope since John the XXIIIrd way back in the '60’s has even worn this pieace of headgear, it has been permanently discarded.QUOTE]

There is also no evidence coming from them that the tiara had those words on it. All evidence is to the contrary.

God bless,
Stephen
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Exactly what all evidence is to the contrary? I don’t know much about the tiara … but I have seen the “Our Sunday Visitor” document with my own eyes. Was it a forgery? Maybe. I’m wiling to consider that … but when a church fits all the major pin points of prophecy and we can’t come up with iron clad proof of the 666 title, well, I don’t think that means a house of cards have fallen. I think it means a reason for certain people to hold on to something that is awful suspect.
 
Faith&Shadow:
Exactly what all evidence is to the contrary? I don’t know much about the tiara … but I have seen the “Our Sunday Visitor” document with my own eyes. Was it a forgery? Maybe. I’m wiling to consider that … but when a church fits all the major pin points of prophecy and we can’t come up with iron clad proof of the 666 title, well, I don’t think that means a house of cards have fallen. I think it means a reason for certain people to hold on to something that is awful suspect.
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For one thing, that translates to “Vicar of the Son of God”…the Papal Title is “Vicar of Christ”, and THAT does not add up to 666. Furthermore, by using this method, the method of the name games, other names that DO add up to 666, depending on which alphabet one uses, is Nero, & Martin Luther…it has been explained before that the 666 DOES equal Nero…John had to write in code for obvious reasons.
 
Adventistnomore, the Lord be with you brother and welcome home.

Another convert, I am jealous, the journey, the mental anguish, the denile of self to give to Christ, ah, ahh, it must be thrilling as it is challenging :clapping:.

Brandon, how are you my brother, thanks for turning me onto Beliefnet.com I am giving Andrewcyrus a run for his money, Sincerely too. Hope the family is all doing well!

Faith&Shadow, here is a question that an SDA in the above forum has had a really tough time answering; ** What did Jesus establish on earth, a Church or a book?**

God Bless you and Jesus keep you.

Joao
 
Actually F&S Catholic Christians, such as myself do not beleive in “sola scriptura” to begin with so your point is moot.

If you can show me anywhere the Bible says “bible alone” explicitly, (and I’m not talking about 2nd Tim 3:16) I will convert immediately.

In a way you are correct about SDAs not hating Catholics, they hedge by saying they do not hate individual Catholics they just hate the institution and it’s teachings. They say they love individual Catholics that they feel compeled to lead them out of the church and into the “one, true, remnant church”.

BTW, while I personally lay no stock in prophecy as fortune telling, or the apochalyptic scenario with it’s illustrations of bloody people runnning in flames, or the numerology embraced by the SDA cult, The words Ellen Gould White when done numerogically add up to 666.

And yes the SDA is a cult, I am sorry if this disturbs you, but it is a fact. It is a personality cult based on the person and teachings of false prophet Ellen White, who’s writings are considered eqaul to the Bible.
 
F&S, just an aside. If Peter’s vision as you say “has nothing to do with food”, then why did God tell him to “kill and EAT”?
 
Faith&Shadow:
Exactly what all evidence is to the contrary? I don’t know much about the tiara … but I have seen the “Our Sunday Visitor” document with my own eyes. Was it a forgery? Maybe. I’m wiling to consider that … but when a church fits all the major pin points of prophecy and we can’t come up with iron clad proof of the 666 title, well, I don’t think that means a house of cards have fallen. I think it means a reason for certain people to hold on to something that is awful suspect.
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For the record, an article in “Our Sunday Visitor” is not an official document of the Catholic Church, it’s just a magazine article. The are a good many articles in “catholic” magazines that would fall out of the scope of approved Catholic doctrine, but that’s a whole 'nother forum…

I can assure you, you will not find this title used for the Pope in any official Church documents. Nor will you find any evidence that there has ever been this inscription (or any others) on any papal headpiece. Those who wish to make this claim use doctored illustrations and cartoons.

You also don’t explain why we shouldn’t be concerned that E.G. White’s name also adds up to 666. You don’t have to - we know it refers to the Emperor Nero.
 
Here’s a difficulty I’m having with this:

We’ve been meeting with an Adventist, and he keeps saying, “Let’s just look at things from the Bible alone, not colored by the view of any church…” BUT, he keeps inserting the writings of EG White, etc. Just can’t get him to see that HE’S not using the Bible alone but one denomination’s interpretation of this.:banghead:

So, for those of you who have left the SDA, would you suggest I approach this by debating sola scriptura rather than specific SDA doctrines? TIA!
 
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JoaoMachado:
Adventistnomore, the Lord be with you brother and welcome home.

Another convert, I am jealous, the journey, the mental anguish, the denile of self to give to Christ, ah, ahh, it must be thrilling as it is challenging :clapping:.

Brandon, how are you my brother, thanks for turning me onto Beliefnet.com I am giving Andrewcyrus a run for his money, Sincerely too. Hope the family is all doing well!

Faith&Shadow, here is a question that an SDA in the above forum has had a really tough time answering; ** What did Jesus establish on earth, a Church or a book?**

God Bless you and Jesus keep you.

Joao
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Well hello to everyone. My name is Lenard, and I have been reading these posts for some time and I decided to share some points here and there.

First i want to respond to boppysbud. Please read carefuly Isaiah 8:20.

Now to JoaoMachado. First of all if you put your tust into humans then you will go down the wrong path all the time. God made a covenant with the Jews, and they were suppose to be a light in the world. But instead being a light to others, they kept the light to themselves. God was the head of that nation, and when they wanted a human ruler to be the king over them, they got what they wanted thats for sure. The church was so defiled with paganism and false doctrine after hundreds of years, and when the real Messaiah came they rejected Him. You think that the church after 2000 years since Christ is pure? The chuch is filled with paganism from top to bottom. An example being the soul being immortal. Lets look at what one of the leaders of the Christian church in the early centuries had to say:
“If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this, and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians.” JUSTIN MARTYR, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 80, in Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol 1, p. 294. This was in A.D 150. If you try to say that the Bible teaches that we go to heaven when we die, show me proof? You can say that tradition teaches that but not the Bible.
And now to your main question, ** What did Jesus establish on earth, a Church or a book?
**That is a very interesting question because it has a problem. Well first because Jesus uplifted the scriptures, read them and quoted from them many times. The apostles said that we should study the scriptures because they make us wise about salvation. Which scriptures? The NT wasn’t even written yet. The OLD TESTAMENT, but I don’t want to get into that.
Jesus did establish a church, but on who is the question.
Lets look at Matthew 16:18. Immediatly after Peter’s confesion of Chirst as the Son of God, Jesus spoke the words of this text: “Thou art Peter” and Jesus used the same Greek word that is used 161 times in the NT of Simon Peter = “Petros”. In fact, the word “petros” is never used for any other purpose in the NT then to designate Peter. The name means “pebble” or “rolling stone.” But after Jesus called Peter by his name Petros, He said “Upon this rock I will build my church.” And this time Christ used the word “petra” for “rock”. The word donates a huge, unmoving boulder. This word is never used to designate Peter. Instead is used repeatedly to describe Jesus Himself, as in 1 Corinthians 10:4. In other words the church was never build on Peter, but on Christ, the Rock of Ages, our Rock of salvation. How can Christ enstablish the church on Peter who will even claim that he doesn’t even know Christ when he is put to the test. Mercy on us if the church is build on a human rolling rock. Jesus is the head, and it is built on HIM. Psalms 31 declare, and many other Psalms that God is our ROCK.

Hope this helps a little. God bless.
 
sacui, I must admit I had a tough time following your post, but I recently had to reply to the question of what I believed to be the Church and here it goes;
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                JCisLord in response to post#96;
And most of the time it is those of whom I disagree with, because it causes me to seek the truth from the word.

This is the precise reason that I am here as well! Your question is not as simple to answer, because as you know there is much that comes with it. But I firmly believe that Jesus was/is God among us. I also believe that Jesus, God and Holy Ghost are ONE, three in one, a difficult thing for many to grasp! So with that, I also believe that when Jesus commanded anything or anyone, they obeyed, He commanded the winds and the sea to “be Calm” and they obeyed, He commanded the Leper to be cleaned, and it was done, He commanded Lazarus to live, and it was done, He commanded the bread and fish to multiply and they did, He commanded the water be turned to wine, and it was, He commanded to Peter, “I will build my Church” and it was done, He commnded the Apostles “Take this and eat it IT IS my Body” and it was, He commanded the Apostles to “This cup is the New Covenant in my blood” and it is so! If you meditate on the Last Supper, and Jesus says those words, “This is my body” one can come to the realization that, for a moment, God held Himself in His own hands. A sobering thought, because Jesus is Love, a sacraficial Love, the total giving, which He did.

So to believe in Jesus the Christ, you must believe He established a Church, a body of believers, and you must also believe Jesus when He says “The gates of Hell will not prevail against it”, another commandment uttered from the lips of our Lord. Who did Jesus send the Holy Spirit to? The Apostles, His Church, to guide it and teach all (Luke12:12). His Church has Bishops, (you call them Elders). And how do you become an “Elder”, well Jesus says, “As the Father sent me, so I send you” and the Apostles say “how can you preach, unless you were sent?” This is Apostolic Succession, without it, you are not followin the Church of Christ.

St. Pauls tells Christ Church: Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.(Eph 4:3-6)

So, JCisLord, the question is this, where did your Church come from? The Bible or Christ?

Joao
*
 
Lenard, I really don’t think you grasp the Peter as the Rock issue.
To understand just one dimmension of those words;*** And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Matthew 16:18 DRB) *** you have to look back a few verses in the Book of Mathew; Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. (Matthew 7:24-27 DRB)
To declare that Jesus established a Church and it did last until he comes again, is to call our Lord a fool.

Jesus also gives Peter the “Keys” and to understand that office you need to read Isaiah22.

Joao
 
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JackmanUSC:
CONTINUED

*Next came Cardinal Bernardin Gantin: *

"Let us pray that our confession and repentance will be inspired by the Holy Spirit, that our sorrow will be conscious and deep, and that, humbly viewing the sins of the past in an authentic “purification of memory,”, we will be committed to the path of true conversion."

*The Pope: *

*" . . . your pilgrim Church . . . counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women." *

*Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: *"Let us pray that each one of us . . . meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the Church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth."

Rev. 14:18 says: “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Latin is the official language of the Catholic Church. The pope, in Catholic theology, stands for the whole church. One of his titles is said to be Vicarius Filii Dei, “Vicar of the Son of God.” This has been verified in their own literature. (Our Sunday Visitor, Apr. 18, 1915) This title is on the triple tiara that is used for the coronation of the pope.

A serious study of the biblical description of the persecuting church will show:
  1. It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman empire (after 476 A.D.), (Daniel 7:7, 8)
  2. It will be a geographically small nation (“little horn”) (Daniel 7:8)
  3. It will rule over many people, nations and tongues (it will be universal) (Revelation 17:15)
  4. It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills (Rome is located on seven hills.) (Revelation 17:9)
  5. It will be a religio-political entity a political city-state that is ruled by a priest-king. (Revelation 17:3 A beast symbolizes political power, and a woman symbolizes a religious power)
  6. Its priest-king will make great and blasphemous claims. (Daniel 7:25)
  7. It will claim authority over all kings (Revelation 14:8)
  8. It will claim to have power to change the times and laws God set as its mark of authority. (Daniel 7:25).
  9. It will be an apostate church that makes the nations drink her cup of apostate doctrine. (Revelation 17:4)
  10. It will be a “mother” church with apostate daughters coming from her. (Revelation 17:5)
  11. It will be a persecuting power, killing the faithful saints of Jesus Christ as heretics. (Revelation 17:6)
  12. It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome. (Daniel 7:25).
  13. It will suffer a deadly wound that will end 1260 years of dominance and persecution, and when it is revived after the deadly wound all the world will wonder at its revival. (Revelation 13:3)
Does this not fit the Roman Church? This is what the Bible says not us. God has given it for all to read. The word of God is our only defense. I believe as time goes on we will see these things come to pass. We are already seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies now.

God bless you as you seek to please God with all your heart and soul. I can see you are stirred, we all are, for soon this world will be no more and a far better land will be our home. Please understand that it is the system and teachings that we see as defective, and that nothing we say here is directed towards the Catholic members themselves for they are precious in God’s sight and He loves them deeply.

KL Owen
Amazing Facts"
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Mr. Adventistnomore address the SDA anti-christ therory rather beautifully on a thread when I asked about it. Here is the link forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68287 I would strongly suggest reading this.
 
Jesus did establish a church, but on who is the question.
Lets look at Matthew 16:18. Immediatly after Peter’s confesion of Chirst as the Son of God, Jesus spoke the words of this text: “Thou art Peter” and Jesus used the same Greek word that is used 161 times in the NT of Simon Peter = “Petros”. In fact, the word “petros” is never used for any other purpose in the NT then to designate Peter. The name means “pebble” or “rolling stone.” But after Jesus called Peter by his name Petros, He said “Upon this rock I will build my church.” And this time Christ used the word “petra” for “rock”. The word donates a huge, unmoving boulder. This word is never used to designate Peter. Instead is used repeatedly to describe Jesus Himself, as in 1 Corinthians 10:4. In other words the church was never build on Peter, but on Christ, the Rock of Ages, our Rock of salvation. How can Christ enstablish the church on Peter who will even claim that he doesn’t even know Christ when he is put to the test. Mercy on us if the church is build on a human rolling rock. Jesus is the head, and it is built on HIM. Psalms 31 declare, and many other Psalms that God is our ROCK.
.

Hi, I’m new. I have been reading these threads about adventism also. I grew up adventist but came home 6 years ago.

I just want to ask about this topic. Petros does indeed mean pebble. But Jesus wasn’t speaking to Peter in Greek. He and his contemporaries spoke Aramaic. The Aramaic word for rock is Cephas, and it means rock, not big rock or little rock just rock. So in essence what Jesus said is " You are rock and upon this rock I will build my church. He didn’t give everyone the keys, just Peter. He was speaking directly, he addresses him at the beginning of the sentence as Simon of Jonah.

I hope this helps you also
 
Speaking of evangalism, there was a mass mailing in March of a DVD about one of the SDA’s conspiracy theories, the National Sunday Law. It was supposedly mailed to every registered Adventist in the U.S. It is called “Maybe on Sunday” It is a docudrama, ripe with historical errors, but very convincing to someone who has little knowledge of early church, and secular history.

They also have a website where you can order DVD’s, but very little information.

I don’t know if this is mainstream thing or if this is just a fringe group who is not taken seriously. For instance, there is a website called biblelight.com that is really off the wall with romanist conspiricies and the evil Jesuit spies that most mainstream adventists just kind of laugh off. I’m not sure where this “Maybe On Sunday” thing fits in.

Has anyone else seen this? Any thoughts? :confused:

JB
 
6YRSHOME said:
Speaking of evangalism, there was a mass mailing in March of a DVD … called “Maybe on Sunday” It is a docudrama,…

Has anyone else seen this? Any thoughts? :confused:

JB
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Yes, I have a copy. It fits in nicely with Protestant ways of thinking. I do think the average Protestant might fall for the logic but they’ll have a hard time believing there could ever be such a Sunday law in the USA.

Jeremiah
 
sacui said:
Well hello to everyone. My name is Lenard, and I have been reading these posts for some time and I decided to share some points here and there.

First i want to respond to boppysbud. Please read carefuly Isaiah 8:20.

Now to JoaoMachado. First of all if you put your tust into humans then you will go down the wrong path all the time. God made a covenant with the Jews, and they were suppose to be a light in the world. But instead being a light to others, they kept the light to themselves. God was the head of that nation, and when they wanted a human ruler to be the king over them, they got what they wanted thats for sure. The church was so defiled with paganism and false doctrine after hundreds of years, and when the real Messaiah came they rejected Him. You think that the church after 2000 years since Christ is pure? The chuch is filled with paganism from top to bottom. An example being the soul being immortal. Lets look at what one of the leaders of the Christian church in the early centuries had to say:
“If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this, and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians.” JUSTIN MARTYR, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 80, in Ante Nicene Fathers, Vol 1, p. 294. This was in A.D 150. If you try to say that the Bible teaches that we go to heaven when we die, show me proof? You can say that tradition teaches that but not the Bible.
And now to your main question, ** What did Jesus establish on earth, a Church or a book?
**That is a very interesting question because it has a problem. Well first because Jesus uplifted the scriptures, read them and quoted from them many times. The apostles said that we should study the scriptures because they make us wise about salvation. Which scriptures? The NT wasn’t even written yet. The OLD TESTAMENT, but I don’t want to get into that.
Jesus did establish a church, but on who is the question.
Lets look at Matthew 16:18. Immediatly after Peter’s confesion of Chirst as the Son of God, Jesus spoke the words of this text: “Thou art Peter” and Jesus used the same Greek word that is used 161 times in the NT of Simon Peter = “Petros”. In fact, the word “petros” is never used for any other purpose in the NT then to designate Peter. The name means “pebble” or “rolling stone.” But after Jesus called Peter by his name Petros, He said “Upon this rock I will build my church.” And this time Christ used the word “petra” for “rock”. The word donates a huge, unmoving boulder. This word is never used to designate Peter. Instead is used repeatedly to describe Jesus Himself, as in 1 Corinthians 10:4. In other words the church was never build on Peter, but on Christ, the Rock of Ages, our Rock of salvation. How can Christ enstablish the church on Peter who will even claim that he doesn’t even know Christ when he is put to the test. Mercy on us if the church is build on a human rolling rock. Jesus is the head, and it is built on HIM. Psalms 31 declare, and many other Psalms that God is our ROCK.

Hope this helps a little. God bless.
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ACTUALLY, this is a very poor explanation/hermanuetic. The petros, petra differences concern masculine and feminine nouns. Peter cannot be named with a feminine noun in NT Greek. It doesn’ t mean he’s a pebble. The best commentary on Matt.16:18 is on the Catholic Answers web site under Tracts- Peter-Rock. Also Stephen K. Ray , a former Evangelical has writings on this on his site. Protestant Greek Theological Dictionaries also understand that The verses in Matthew allude to Isiah 22, the keys of the kingdom story. I wouldn’t trust SDA or fundamentalist commentaries on any of this; there are much more intelligent and accurate understandings of what the Greek originally meant and Catholic exegesis has been historically correct on this.
 
Stephen_Korsman said:
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boppysbud:
It is fact that SDAs absolutely hate and lie about the Catholic Church. They do call us “the great whore of Babylon” and the Pope “the Beast”. They lie when they say that we dropped one of the ten commandments. They lie when they claim that the Papal triple tiara is inscribed “Vicarious Filii Dei” which supposedly eqauls 666. BTW no pope since John the XXIIIrd way back in the '60’s has even worn this pieace of headgear, it has been permanently discarded.QUOTE]

There is also no evidence coming from them that the tiara had those words on it. All evidence is to the contrary.

God bless,
Stephen
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YES, Thank you for your post. SDA’s can be very anti-Catholic and the Amazing Facts seminars, as we know, cater to the vulnerable and tell all sorts of discredited stories about Catholics. I think they still use the Lorraine Boettner books to fool the foolish! This stuff is really getting old. Many SDA’s have left the fold due to the admitted plagarism of Ellen White, who obviously copied whole pages from prior published works of others; and called them prophesy!. She was as much a prophet as Joseph Smith or Tammy Faye Bakker.
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