Advice for a catholic in love with a non-catholic man

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MtnDwellar said:
I am sorry, but I think that my wording was succinct and needs no correction. Please tell me which part was “badly worded”.

When do you think that the matrimonial bond ends? I thought that the eternal bond was common knowledge.

I did a quick search and here are the first few things that I came up with:

Mark 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Sex creates an unbreakable bond for eternity with the sex partner. (1 Cor 6:16) That’s why it needs to happen only within the eternal bond of marriage.

It serves to unite a woman and a man in eternal union before God with the purpose of following Christ and His Gospel and raising up a faithful, holy family through their holy union. It is referred to extensively in both the Old and New Testaments. Christ declared the essential indissolvibility of marriage in the Gospel.

In the Christian Orthodox tradition marriage is viewed as an eternal union of spouses, strengthened not only by physical, but also by spiritual intimacy.

The wedding rings symbolize the eternal bond of marriage.
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Mtndweller, you are incorrect. Marriage is only “till death do us part”. There is no marriage between men and women after this part of our lives, eternally, we will be with God. Jesus himself said there is no marriage as we know it in heaven, look up the scripture where he is asked which husband a woman would be married to in heaven if she marries all the brothers. This life here on this earth cannot be called “eternal.”
 
Apollos said:
The Catechism #2382 says that marriage is not eternal, but comes to an end when one of the spouses dies. Furthermore, common sense says that the marriage bond only starts to exist when the parties exchange vows - not that the marital bond somehow pre-exists the couple eternally, from the beginning of time, and is somehow brought into reality at the time of formal marriage. Didn’t someone ask Jesus about a man who had seven wives, or a woman who had seven husbands, and Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?
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The word eternal does not mean without begin and end. It refers to without beginning *or *end. A thing can begin today and still be eternal. I never said nor implied that the marriage existed from the beginning of time.

I don’t know if one can argue with the Catechism, but, Fr. Serpa from Ask an Apologist seems to, “The very marriage formula itself states, “until death”. It doesn’t say, “for eternity”. That being said, marriage-both as covenant and sacrament–is not meant to be broken by death.”

I haven’t looked up that passage, but I think that when Christ said that there was not marriage in heaven, He was referring to marital relations. No physical body - no relations. Don’t be surprised that the connections from a marriage last past this lifetime. We are all connected through the Communion of Saints. There is one Mystical Body of Christ. We are all part of it. Marriage makes the connection stronger. <= My opinion.
 
SwizzleStick said:
OP, Madison, here is a link to a thread that may interest you. If you do a search on CAF, you will find others like it. My point in sharing it is to let you know that others have done things out of order and really would like to go around or ignore the teachings of the Church to the detriment of their souls. You are not alone and you are not being picked on.

Pre-Marriage counseling during an annulment?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=445344&highlight=swizzlestick
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I posted the above just before I had to rush out the door for a gathering and I made a mistake with the link. I’m sorry about that. Below is the correct link to the thread and it actually works.🙂 Again, I’m sorry for my error.

Pre-Marriage counseling during an annulment?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=445344
 
1ke in post #26–was there possibly a typo–did you really mean to say in the parentheses, “it is not a divorce” rather than “it is not an annulment”? Just trying to clarify for the OP.
 
MtnDwellar said:
I haven’t looked up that passage, but I think that when Christ said that there was not marriage in heaven, He was referring to marital relations. No physical body - no relations. Don’t be surprised that the connections from a marriage last past this lifetime. We are all connected through the Communion of Saints. There is one Mystical Body of Christ. We are all part of it. Marriage makes the connection stronger. <= My opinion.
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Sorry to be OT now. But you do know about the resurrection correct? We will have a physical body in our lives continued. Flesh and spirit is what we are, that is the definition of a human being.
Marriage is for this life only, to participate in creation with our Lord and Savior, beyond that, we will no longer feel the need. Marriage does help us understand Christ and his love for the Church, being the bridegroom and all, however, marriage is only till this death.
Matthew chapter 22
23

14 On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. 15 They put this question to him,

24

saying, "Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies 16 without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’

25

Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother.

26

The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven.

27

Finally the woman died.

28

Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her."

29
**
17 Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.

30

At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.**
 
TheRealJuliane said:
This is what HE is telling you. Have you spoken to his ex-wife? She may have another perspective on the divorce.

Of course HE is free to re-marry! He’s NOT CATHOLIC!!! You, however, are, and you are NOT free to marry a non-Catholic who has been divorced unless and until his marriage is annulled through the Church. I have a feeling, though, that you are going to ignore the requirements of the Church and proceed with this relationship anyway. You defend your choices and his life rather than trying to understand the mistakes you are making by continuing in this relationship.
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Well, all of these “feelings” should be held at ease. As mentioned, I came here for advice, not to be criticized. I believe it’s a GOOD thing that I am being cautious and asking versus flat out acting upon my emotions. It would have been a lot easier a long time ago to have just done whatever without being true to myself, my faith and most of all God. So truly, if you can respect one thing about anything I have said… please let that be it- versus assuming you know what I may or may not do. It’s hurtful and in no way necessary.
 
you came on here looking for advice, but then it seems like you just want to defend your decision. Just know that there is a lot that is going to be different between you two should you marry. You won’t have the glue of the same faith to get you through the hard times.
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I have not made ANY decisions… why must so many make this assumption??? What have I ever said that would imply that I have made any decision after seeking everyone’s advice? It’s OBVIOUS I made the decision to attempt to find out where things went, but never once since seeking advice have I mentioned every actually marrying him or actually moving forward. Just because I am asking questions about all of this in efforts to find out whether or not anyone has had similar experiences or possibly knows how to go about dealing with this type of situation does not imply that I am defending ANY decision- because none has ever been made. My goodness!! 🤷 I’m getting worn out. I’m beating a dead horse here.

I appreciate that this would not give us the glue that would hold us together through hard times. This is not something I have ever doubted. I would not be questioning any of it if I felt that it was possible. If it was possible, I’m sure I would have heard other view points and/or others give (name removed by moderator)ut into their “happy” marriage without the same faith. I have since realized that this is non-existent. To those of you who have given me information about this and educated me on the Catholic views and teachings – THANK YOU, because this is the clarification and information I seek. I have gained a LOT more insight to those whom have had to deal with this very issue, and I appreciate that you know what I am dealing with. 👍 HUGS
 
FirstCalled said:
lol, ah the goggles of love… I am 26 and I’m been through that a couple of times. Sometimes the clearest heads are those who are outside of the situation. You definitely will not like that, you know that already, attempting to justify the situation, but that does not make the majority of posters here incorrect. As a Catholic sister, we are attempting to look out for you, to help you not make a mistake of potentially “marrying” someone who is already married in the eyes of God, even if he regrets that now. You have the opportunity now to change things before you make that huge leap.
He is in no position to provide for you spiritually, something that I’m telling you is a HUGE part, the BIGGEST part of marriage, one of the sole reasons for marriage. Other men out there are, perhaps it is just not your time yet, and not with this man. Not that it couldn’t work out.
IF he received an annulment, and you put your relationship on hold till then, is he willing to wait for that, for you?

Opening Poster, I’m glad you see that we are trying to help, but it seems there is not a whole lot for you to go on with his reactions thus far to your faith. It would seem he is going into defensive mode to come up with refutations to your arguments about his bible, etc. Which will only serve to make you question whether he is indeed correct(which he won’t be).
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Indeed… and for those of you I am so pleased. I value the genuine concern that is expressed. It is humbling to be a part of such a strong group of Christians and to hear you state such kind words. I can only hope that one day I will also be of such knowledge to assist someone else in like situations.

I know he won’t be right 🙂 - I figured these things out myself as well… But it’s hard not to want to prove myself with scripture - because it was something he did not believe existed or for that matter believe that I COULD do. Even if he is going to ever “refute” the things I say…does not mean that the TRUTH will not prevail. I mean truly… using a bible that is way far out from actual translation does not EVER prove to be a valid point- or actual scripture. No fear – I assure you. My heart remains a Catholic heart… I just have some learning, soul-searching, praying, growing and comprehending to do.
 
FirstCalled said:
Sorry to be OT now. But you do know about the resurrection correct?
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You are correct. This has turned into a side bar and not helpful for the OT. I know about the resurrection. Why would ask such a thing??? I am outta here.
 
mdsnRN said:
Indeed… and for those of you I am so pleased. I value the genuine concern that is expressed. It is humbling to be a part of such a strong group of Christians and to hear you state such kind words. I can only hope that one day I will also be of such knowledge to assist someone else in like situations.

I know he won’t be right 🙂 - I figured these things out myself as well… But it’s hard not to want to prove myself with scripture - because it was something he did not believe existed or for that matter believe that I COULD do. Even if he is going to ever “refute” the things I say…does not mean that the TRUTH will not prevail. I mean truly… using a bible that is way far out from actual translation does not EVER prove to be a valid point- or actual scripture. No fear – I assure you. My heart remains a Catholic heart… I just have some learning, soul-searching, praying, growing and comprehending to do.
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Dear sister in Jesus.
I have been following this thread with great interest and sympathy towards you.
I understand your troubles.
I have myself experienced having been in love but not in the right circumstances, or having the right circumstances but not being able to find the feelings.
Now you have met someone you love and thats a treasure. No one should say that you can “just” go and find another Catholic guy. First of all, there is a ratio of maybe 5-1 in my part of the world… meaning very few devout Catholic guys in contrast to all the women, young and old that go to church. Some of us will statistically have to look for our spouse among protestant, evangelical or orthodox men (I wouldn’t encourage anything beyond that… Jesus changes everything).

I once had a boyfriend who had no interest in my religion. His sister eventually told me; find someone who respects your religion because its part of you.
Indeed, our faith is a big part of our whole identity.

Your lover is a Christian, which is good. If he is not anticatholic and will be willing to come to church with you and read things about Catholicism in order to understand you, then I think you can be satisfied. If he is not willing to learn about your faith/you, then there is a problem.
Since you both believe in the Bible and in prayer you can make a strong Christian home if you have total mutual respect and can both see your diversity as a richness.

He is divorced. Thats a big hurdle. But again, if he truly loves you he will look at the possibilities for obtaining an annulment. I am also pretty sure that if he studies up on that, he will be able to understand the Catholic marriage-doctrines about indissolubility.
I am more concerned that he - in his own church - is ready to consider adultery because he feels sorry for himself. That is understandable, but still you have to be prudent with such thinking on his part.
There will be other tests come along for you guys … what about NFP eg. is he ready to put God’s law over his own wishes?

I think you should struggle for this relationship, but also be able to walk away if he has no will to compromise in the sense of learning about your faith. It seems he is willing to learn about it.
I have hope for you guys.
Love is beautiful and its always worth fighting for when you are blessed to encounter it.

Ciao 🙂
 
Well you certainly just told the OP everything she wanted to hear! That love can overcome any obstacle, that love is always worth the pursuit, that it’s OK if her lover (we don’t know if they’ve had sex but I suspect that they have) is from a denomination that believes Catholics are pagans at best and Satanic at worst.

She wants to have children with this man! Do you know what kind of hell awaits children from a marriage of a Catholic and a Baptist? If the Baptist converts, truly converts, OK, but otherwise, that whole family is going to keep the pressure on for the kids NOT to be baptized, NOT to attend Mass, NOT to receive the sacraments, but to be “born again” once they are old enough to understand Jesus’ sacrifice. Infant baptism is NOT a part of Baptist theology, they do not believe in it AT ALL!!!

Romance is not going to get you that far down the road, not when the obstacles to a true union are so many and so problematic. You can call me a pessimist but I know first-hand that having an expectation that love will overcome all will get you a lot of misery and pain, and since the OP wants children I am thinking more of their lives than hers. She is an adult and can take her own chances but don’t bring kids into that kind of mixed marriage where their grandparents and other relatives on that side could be actively undermining her own faith training with them. It screws them up permanently.

:mad:
 
I will try to explain this experience the best way that I have been explained to about it (by a couple of my family members that also go to this church). There is a point where they feel a deep conviction from God (and he refers to Paul and Paul’s conviction when speaking about this a lot) and it goes on and they pray and pray as they fear they are not going to heaven and may be condemned to hell if not “saved”. They pray and pray for this salvation. Then at some point, they eventually become saved. I know this is bizarre. I do not need instruction on what Catholics believe and how this differs from our understanding of salvation. I am very clear in what the Catholic Church believes, and absolutely CERTAIN I am “saved”. But, I truly believe that he did in fact have this experience. This is why he is moved by it and takes pride in what he believes- because he felt it. I also understand that after having such experience why he wants his children to also have it. But, I want to know what I can compare it to or explain this by. The theories I have had include anything from the fact that he finally prayed hard enough, intensely enough - and truly experienced God for this first time. But it was only at that one particular time did he truly feel God. I have also often wondered if it had something to do with literally being “brain-washed” for so long about how horrible of people they are during service, and condemning them all to hell. Then by the pure and absolute fear that is put in them during service are they “driven” to the altar and forced to actually pray deeply- until they finally feel God’s graces or experience God. I’m not really sure, but I don’t doubt that he had this experience. I would just like to know and understand what it truly is or even be able to explain to him what I feel this might be. Because, I am NOT certain of what it truly is. I often think I have had that experience myself, but it has happened more than one time. I’m not sure I cried nearly as hard and long about it (mind you I didn’t have someone yelling down my throat, preaching hell, fire and brimstone either), but I can say I’m certain I felt something like that.

I just wanted to try and answer your questions above regarding Catholic theology but I am sure there are others who will be able to give you a better understanding.

I don’t know for sure but your boyfriend could have been experiencing “actual graces”(graces given by God to help one to grow closer to Him) when he had this feeling of God. God can bestow these “actual graces” many times during ones’ life. We also receive sanctifying graces from God while receiving the sacraments if we are properly disposed.

Catholics do not believe that we are once save always saved. We believe that we have the possibility of being saved. We are baptized into sanctifying grace (saving grace) which we can loose when we have unrepented mortal sin on our souls. Whenever we repent with contrition our mortal sins in confession and are absolved we again receive sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace helps us to grow in holiness.
 
Sweety I have no doubt you love this man and this man loves you. The truth is love alone simply does not conquer all. If you marry this man, once the children come if you think your heart is breaking now -you truly have no idea.

This man isn’t just a non-catholic he is a Baptist who is strongly and very deeply devoted to his faith. When its just between adults some can agree to disagree but when children come into the picture it isn’t just between adults and you will be banging your head and beating your chest thinking if only you could go back and make a different choice. And your children will be pulled apart by a mess you and this man willingly created and subjected them to. You don’t know yet the feelings that come up within you when you hold your child for the first time. It won’t just be about your best friend any more it will be what is best for my children.

Please for the sake of your children and your heart that will be torn to pieces do not go down this road.
 
Hi msdnRN,

I am old enough to be your father and this is what I would tell you if you were my daughter.

You are 25 you have a lot of choices in life, give a Catholic matching service for two years, I bet you will find someone closer to your age; there are probably more eligible Catholic men that you realize in your area. Ten years is a big age gap, with two kids that is a lot. If he were closer in age and with no children it would be a different story. He should be more mature, to allow himself to get involved with someone as young as you is a little irresponsible and selfish. I’ll probably get thrown under the bus for this statement, but for a man to date a lady 10 years younger it is like winning the lottery.

I have a niece in an almost identical situation, except unfortunately they are not involved much in the Christian faith and he does not have custody of his kids. She is in big time debt from College loans and frivolous spending habits. He is under employed for a man of his age and has alimony payments; not a pretty picture.

If you persist in this relationship go to an engagement encounter weekend and take the questions seriously; even the other couples don’t. Also, take a natural family planning class; remember the official teaching of the church in these maters. If he refuses or takes them as a joke then take it as a sign to get out of this situation. You are only 25 don’t settle, you will regret it.

God Bless you in your life
 
GraceDK said:
Dear sister in Jesus.
I have been following this thread with great interest and sympathy towards you.
I understand your troubles.
I have myself experienced having been in love but not in the right circumstances, or having the right circumstances but not being able to find the feelings.
Now you have met someone you love and thats a treasure. No one should say that you can “just” go and find another Catholic guy. First of all, there is a ratio of maybe 5-1 in my part of the world… meaning very few devout Catholic guys in contrast to all the women, young and old that go to church. Some of us will statistically have to look for our spouse among protestant, evangelical or orthodox men (I wouldn’t encourage anything beyond that… Jesus changes everything).

I once had a boyfriend who had no interest in my religion. His sister eventually told me; find someone who respects your religion because its part of you.
Indeed, our faith is a big part of our whole identity.

Your lover is a Christian, which is good. If he is not anticatholic and will be willing to come to church with you and read things about Catholicism in order to understand you, then I think you can be satisfied. If he is not willing to learn about your faith/you, then there is a problem.
Since you both believe in the Bible and in prayer you can make a strong Christian home if you have total mutual respect and can both see your diversity as a richness.

He is divorced. Thats a big hurdle. But again, if he truly loves you he will look at the possibilities for obtaining an annulment. I am also pretty sure that if he studies up on that, he will be able to understand the Catholic marriage-doctrines about indissolubility.
I am more concerned that he - in his own church - is ready to consider adultery because he feels sorry for himself. That is understandable, but still you have to be prudent with such thinking on his part.
There will be other tests come along for you guys … what about NFP eg. is he ready to put God’s law over his own wishes?

I think you should struggle for this relationship, but also be able to walk away if he has no will to compromise in the sense of learning about your faith. It seems he is willing to learn about it.
I have hope for you guys.
Love is beautiful and its always worth fighting for when you are blessed to encounter it.

Ciao 🙂
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Spoken like a true single lady.
 
mdsnRN said:
I have not made ANY decisions… why must so many make this assumption??? What have I ever said that would imply that I have made any decision after seeking everyone’s advice? It’s OBVIOUS I made the decision to attempt to find out where things went, but never once since seeking advice have I mentioned every actually marrying him or actually moving forward. Just because I am asking questions about all of this in efforts to find out whether or not anyone has had similar experiences or possibly knows how to go about dealing with this type of situation does not imply that I am defending ANY decision- because none has ever been made. My goodness!! 🤷 I’m getting worn out. I’m beating a dead horse here.

I appreciate that this would not give us the glue that would hold us together through hard times. This is not something I have ever doubted. I would not be questioning any of it if I felt that it was possible. If it was possible, I’m sure I would have heard other view points and/or others give (name removed by moderator)ut into their “happy” marriage without the same faith. I have since realized that this is non-existent. To those of you who have given me information about this and educated me on the Catholic views and teachings – THANK YOU, because this is the clarification and information I seek. I have gained a LOT more insight to those whom have had to deal with this very issue, and I appreciate that you know what I am dealing with. 👍 HUGS
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If he can obtain an annulment, and if he is supportive of you practicing your faith and handing it on to your children, then it is possible. I don’t want to give you the impression that I, married to a non-Catholic, am not happily married. Life has its ups and downs, but I am happily married to a non-Catholic.

It is not easy, though, and IMHO my path is easier than yours would be. I have also dated a very religious man who was Christian but not Catholic. I went to his church and to Mass every weekend, but he did not go to Mass. He was respectful of the Catholic faith, he even had some priests and religious as friends, but I don’t think he would have taught any children we had that the Catholic faith was the truth, as my husband does. It would be very hard to pass on the faith if it were “Mom’s religion” and not “the Truth.” I think that would have been harder than what I have now. Having said that, there was at least a common faith in Jesus Christ, and that was true common ground. If you pray together with a Baptist, that is a true experience of prayer.

Just be very careful, OK, and whatever you do, do not marry outside the Church. If he cannot get an annulment, then a marriage in that case is not just something you do behind the Church’s back. It is adultery. Don’t violate that boundary. If that is not an obstacle, pray pray pray, be honest, and make sure that you and your intended spend some time in some serious conversations with a priest, beyond what “pre-marital counselling” would require. A prior divorce is a big red flag, but I would not go so far as to say it is a deal-breaker. I know some people who attempted marriage with spouses who turned out to have no capacity for it. These couples didn’t stay married, but the one party at least almost died trying. Those people did succeed with a second attempt with a different person. If this did not happen, after all, I don’t think the Church would even have tribunals.

Also, keep in mind that you do not have to be engaged to go to an Engaged Encounter. In your case, it would be far better to go to something like that before you agreed to an engagement. I think if this fellow you are dating understands the point of it, he will be happy to comply with that as a common-sense investigation of your situation.

If he treats you like an adult, then an 8, 10, or 12 year age difference is something I have seen work just fine, many times, especially when the woman is the younger one. I wouldn’t do it as an 18 year old marrying a 30 year old, but I married someone 8 years older when I was 27. It has been fine, and I know many like us in that regard…I’ve even had older ladies, 30 years older, express the opinion that they think it is better.
 
Im only 18, and i know nothing about love, but the one thing that i can say is this: my mum fell deeply in love with a man before she met my dad. She loved him more than anything just like you, but the problem was, he wasn’t Catholic, he was from a different religion altogether. As a follower of the Catholic Church, it is your duty, and it is only normal to raise your kids as Catholics. If you dont, and you still call yourself Catholic… thats just weird. :confused: You should talk with him and see if he is willing to let you raise your kids to be Catholic. You will also be entering his kids lives, and you should consider how you are going to influence them as well. In the end, my mum and the man she loved both decided it would not be a good idea to get married, and they left each other, on good terms. She still loved him, and then she met my dad and was able to move on, although she still remembers. In the end, you just have to follow your heart. Make rational decisions, however, because you will be influencing more than just the lives of you two if you have children, and his children, and their mother. If its already complicated at the moment, it may get even more so in the future.
Well, anyway, im only 18 and i have no idea about making life decisions, 🙂 just thought id put my two cents in. :3
Good luck, and I’ll be praying for you :] xoxo
 
…and the children shall lead us. Pretty dang wise for an 18 year old! Your mother did well. 😃
 
Just shows you that there is chronological age, and then there is maturity, and sometimes they don’t happen on the same schedule!

I wish I’d been that wise when I was 18!

:)👍
 
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