Advice for a traditionalist please

[Lilyflower]

I did not intend to start a new thread but do not see where else I may pose my question.

The Parish to which I belong, there is a contempt for all things traditional. We are the Pariahs of Catholicism. Suffice it to say there is a very strong Charasmatic Renewal, which has a very powerful voice. Much worship [outside from the Mass] is orchestrated and led by the Renewal Movement including preaching informal homilies. Any mention of a Tradentine Mass is laughed to scorn.It’s advocates treated as if they are mentally ill and spoken to in very patronising over-tones.

Now we have a very kindly saintly Priest who at the tender age of 71 years, is reaching the end of his working life and looking forward to retirement. He does not have the best of health and in the last few years, has really been feeling the strain. He does not agree with most things the Renewal Movement says/does but I think he is too tired to keep challenging it.

My chief concern is this: this group is very heavily committed to promoting Medjegorie. They speak about it as if it is sanctioned by the Church. Our dear old Priest will not accept anything Medjegorie in the Parish but the group are now too strong for him and are riding roughshod over his feelings and views. I want to get some real information about the Church position.

They insist that Rome DOES accept Medjegorie, it is only that Rome has not officially rubber stamped it yet but that this is only a short time away.

They insist that his late Holiness John Paul 2 was a fervant believer and visitor but a covert one as he was aware of opposition. Furthermore, they are very actively promoting Medjegorie and giving it the same if not more credence than Fatima. Anyone who does not accept Medjegorie are treated with contempt, marginalised, sidelined and laughed to scorn .

I would like some advice on the Church’s real position on the above.

I apologise to the Mods for raising this as I am aware this subject is not encouraged. I am merely asking my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ so that I can speak with the voice of the Church on the subject.

Am I correct in saying that anyone can give a public testimony but that no-one should preach from the pulpit unless they are ordained Ministers? Am I correct in saying that 'being an extra-ordinary Minister of the Eucharist of itself does not authorise anyone the right to write a homily and preach it in public?

Those who do it so far as I know, have never studied theology and all without exception are women. I have argued, they should not preach, in case they preach error unless they are at least Deacons and have their homiliy approved by the Parish Priest. Am I correct in this respect?

I am particularly concerned as I have offended one by walking out whenever she stands up to preach. She is a convert from Baptist Church, believes and practices inter-communion and encourages others to do the same. I believe this is grave error.

Any advice or sign-posts where I may go for advice would be most sincerely welcome. To protect the integrity of the forum, would be happy for answers to be PM’d?

Blessings and peace.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Have you ever considered asking your priest to simply make a statement during the announcements, or as part of his sermon on the Church’s position on Medjugorje? He could say ‘this is what the church says, and I will be hearing confessions after Mass for those who need to renounce their devotion to this fraudulent business in order to remain Catholics in good standing’ etc.

Or how about the bishop?

 

[karl4]

I did not intend to start a new thread but do not see where else I may pose my question.

The Parish to which I belong, there is a contempt for all things traditional. We are the Pariahs of Catholicism. Suffice it to say there is a very strong Charasmatic Renewal, which has a very powerful voice. Much worship [outside from the Mass] is orchestrated and led by the Renewal Movement including preaching informal homilies. Any mention of a Tradentine Mass is laughed to scorn.It’s advocates treated as if they are mentally ill and spoken to in very patronising over-tones.

Now we have a very kindly saintly Priest who at the tender age of 71 years, is reaching the end of his working life and looking forward to retirement. He does not have the best of health and in the last few years, has really been feeling the strain. He does not agree with most things the Renewal Movement says/does but I think he is too tired to keep challenging it.

My chief concern is this: this group is very heavily committed to promoting Medjegorie. They speak about it as if it is sanctioned by the Church. Our dear old Priest will not accept anything Medjegorie in the Parish but the group are now too strong for him and are riding roughshod over his feelings and views. I want to get some real information about the Church position.

They insist that Rome DOES accept Medjegorie, it is only that Rome has not officially rubber stamped it yet but that this is only a short time away.

They insist that his late Holiness John Paul 2 was a fervant believer and visitor but a covert one as he was aware of opposition. Furthermore, they are very actively promoting Medjegorie and giving it the same if not more credence than Fatima. Anyone who does not accept Medjegorie are treated with contempt, marginalised, sidelined and laughed to scorn .

I would like some advice on the Church’s real position on the above.

I apologise to the Mods for raising this as I am aware this subject is not encouraged. I am merely asking my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ so that I can speak with the voice of the Church on the subject.

Am I correct in saying that anyone can give a public testimony but that no-one should preach from the pulpit unless they are ordained Ministers? Am I correct in saying that 'being an extra-ordinary Minister of the Eucharist of itself does not authorise anyone the right to write a homily and preach it in public?

Those who do it so far as I know, have never studied theology and all without exception are women. I have argued, they should not preach, in case they preach error unless they are at least Deacons and have their homiliy approved by the Parish Priest. Am I correct in this respect?

I am particularly concerned as I have offended one by walking out whenever she stands up to preach. She is a convert from Baptist Church, believes and practices inter-communion and encourages others to do the same. I believe this is grave error.

Any advice or sign-posts where I may go for advice would be most sincerely welcome. To protect the integrity of the forum, would be happy for answers to be PM’d?

Blessings and peace.

JMJ, I’m speechless. is this really a Catholic parish. My heart goes out to you. Pray,pray, pray.

 

[PrayHarder]

I don’t see how the teachings of Medjegorie go against traditional Catholicism. From what I can see it has only brought people closer to their Catholic faith. In fact, the message seems to be a call back to traditional practices of fasting, prayer, and putting Jesus Christ first in your life. I don’t see how a message that is just reiterating the core teachings of the Church is not traditional.

That being said, I understand peoples’ skepticsm towards Medjegorie and I do not agree with any group that marginalizes people because they do not agree with them. In fact, they are acting counter to that message if they are not treating their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with respect. This is something that you should bring up with the parish priest or others in the parish because this group is creating a fracture in the parish community instead of being a uniting force.

 

[LilyM]

Have you ever considered asking your priest to simply make a statement during the announcements, or as part of his sermon on the Church’s position on Medjugorje? He could say ‘this is what the church says, and I will be hearing confessions after Mass for those who need to renounce their devotion to this fraudulent business in order to remain Catholics in good standing’ etc.

Or how about the bishop?

Or simply quote the section from the Catechism on private revelation, and how none of us are obliged to believe in any apparition, whether stated by Rome to be ‘worthy of belief’ or not.

 

[Dauphin]

Am I correct in saying that anyone can give a public testimony but that no-one should preach from the pulpit unless they are ordained Ministers? Am I correct in saying that 'being an extra-ordinary Minister of the Eucharist of itself does not authorise anyone the right to write a homily and preach it in public?

Those who do it so far as I know, have never studied theology and all without exception are women. I have argued, they should not preach, in case they preach error unless they are at least Deacons and have their homiliy approved by the Parish Priest. Am I correct in this respect?

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.” - 1 Timothy 2:12

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Or simply quote the section from the Catechism on private revelation, and how none of us are obliged to believe in any apparition, whether stated by Rome to be ‘worthy of belief’ or not.

Saying that nobody is obliged to believe in a private revelation is different from condemning it outright. Fatima is a private revelation but it was approved. Medjurgorje…not so much. Also, PrayHarder, it’s not only the message of Medjugorje that is in conflict with Catholic dogma, it is also the lifestyles the the so-called seers live. There is so much scandal and sin revolving around their actions…Would the Mother of God come to these, or to the Fatima children? Also O.L. of Fatima appeared, what, six times? And “O.L. Med” has appeared how many thousands to these ‘seers’? I mean, is the BVM having a hard time getting her message across to them to the point where she has to appear every week, or does she just enjoy the chit-chat? Anyway, sorry to harp on Med., but every Catholic ought to know by now…

 

[elts1956]

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.” - 1 Timothy 2:12

Okay, this is where my feminist “dark side” pops up. Dauphin do you really believe women should be silent? I am not suggesting women preach from the pulpit, but I do believe women could do much for the Church if given the opportunity to come out of the shadows into the light.

 

[Dauphin]

Okay, this is where my feminist “dark side” pops up. Dauphin do you really believe women should be silent? I am not suggesting women preach from the pulpit, but I do believe women could do much for the Church if given the opportunity to come out of the shadows into the light.

Women may teach in a domestic setting, such as in the classroom or in prayer meetings, but they may not presume to teach in a public setting or to exercise authority over men. Such is the judgment of St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

 

[elts1956]

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.” - 1 Timothy 2:12

Have you ever considered asking your priest to simply make a statement during the announcements, or as part of his sermon on the Church’s position on Medjugorje? He could say ‘this is what the church says, and I will be hearing confessions after Mass for those who need to renounce their devotion to this fraudulent business in order to remain Catholics in good standing’ etc.

Or how about the bishop?

I agree. I am surprised that not only this priest, but probably several do not stand up for what is right and what the church teaches. Hopefully Lilyflower’s pastor will get advice from the Bishop as to what to do. The only problem is, if they are confronted, many of the members of the Renewal Movement would probably pick up their toys and leave.

 

[elts1956]

Women may teach in a domestic setting, such as in the classroom or in prayer meetings, but they may not presume to teach in a public setting or to exercise authority over men. Such is the judgment of St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t think St. Paul ever really understood women and misinterpreted the Holy Spirit as you can tell by what he writes about the female members of humanity… A little egocentric if you ask me. But then you probably wouldn’t ask me, would you? Okay back to the topic at hand.

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t think St. Paul ever really understood women and misinterpreted the Holy Spirit as you can tell by what he writes about the female members of humanity… A little egocentric if you ask me. But then you probably wouldn’t ask me, would you? Okay back to the topic at hand.

I’m just interested in conforming my beliefs to what’s contained in God’s revelation, of which the Bible is a part. We know from Catholic doctrine that it is free from error “in all its parts”, and that covers St. Paul’s views on women, peculiar as they may seem.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I don’t see how the teachings of Medjegorie go against traditional Catholicism. From what I can see it has only brought people closer to their Catholic faith. In fact, the message seems to be a call back to traditional practices of fasting, prayer, and putting Jesus Christ first in your life. I don’t see how a message that is just reiterating the core teachings of the Church is not traditional.

That being said, I understand peoples’ skepticsm towards Medjegorie and I do not agree with any group that marginalizes people because they do not agree with them. In fact, they are acting counter to that message if they are not treating their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with respect. This is something that you should bring up with the parish priest or others in the parish because this group is creating a fracture in the parish community instead of being a uniting force.

Personal Revelations such as this come under the jurisdiction of the Local Bishop of that area.

Here’s what the Local Bishop had to say about Medjugorje:

“It is therefore forbidden to claim or to declare in churches and religious communities that Our Lady has appeared or will yet appear in Medjugorje.”
Ratko Peric, Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Herzegovnia
Seat of Wisdom, by Bishop Peric, 1995

For more, check out this traditional Catholic blog, which has devoted special attention to this issue:

Vatican to denounce Medjugorje
Medjugorje promotes indifferentism
Bishop’s Latest Statement (2004)
How to Judge Private Revelation
The Absurd Messages of Medjugorje
Mary says we must believe to be “accepted”?

 

[SanJudas]

The Parish to which I belong, there is a contempt for all things traditional.

I hate to be the one to bring up the “cut-and-run” option, but have you thought about cutting-and-running? I don’t know how near other parishes may be to you, and with the gas prices these days, I don’t know if that would be a possibility for you.

In other words, not all battles are winnable. The war is, but not all of its battles.

I’m just saying…

 

[elts1956]

I’m just interested in conforming my beliefs to what’s contained in God’s revelation, of which the Bible is a part. We know from Catholic doctrine that it is free from error “in all its parts”, and that covers St. Paul’s views on women, peculiar as they may seem.

Okay, enlighten me. Seriously, I won’t take your head off. Which is free from error, the Bible, or Cathollic Doctrine? I know Catholic Doctrine is free from error, but since when does Catholic Doctrine say it is okay to make one gender lower than the other? Didn’t Paul also say, in "Galatians 3:28 “Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.” Doesn’t “One” mean equal? All parts making up One? No part less nor more than another? I would think that means equal in “all things”, especially in spreading the word of God.
…

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Okay, enlighten me. Seriously, I won’t take your head off. Which is free from error, the Bible, or Cathollic Doctrine? I know Catholic Doctrine is free from error, but since when does Catholic Doctrine say it is okay to make one gender lower than the other? Didn’t Paul also say, in "Galatians 3:28 “Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.” Doesn’t “One” mean equal? All parts making up One? No part less nor more than another? I would think that means equal in “all things”, especially in spreading the word of God.
…

elts1956,

Just off the top of my head at 2am I’d have to conclude that although we are equal, we are also separate. As Bishop Sheen says (paraphrase) you can tell if something is good depending on if it does the job it was made for. A pencil’s nature is to write, not to make coffee. If the pencil is writing, it is a good pencil. A human’s nature is to love and serve God as best we can. And still, men and women are different (though one isn’t ‘lower’). In matrimony the man is to be the ‘head’ but that doesn’t make what the woman does any less important (e.g. giving birth, physically raising and teaching the children etc. while the husband is traditionally out in the world providing materially). Likewise, men can be priests and women can’t, but that doesn’t make the tasks that women do any less, inferior, or unimportant etc. Just look at the Blessed Virgin Mary. She couldn’t be a priest, yet she is the highest creation, higher even than the saraphim. She bore God, something no man could do. I hope this helps.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, but it’s still just a book. It still requires interpretation. It can’t interpret itself…

 

[karl4]

Okay, this is where my feminist “dark side” pops up. Dauphin do you really believe women should be silent? I am not suggesting women preach from the pulpit, but I do believe women could do much for the Church if given the opportunity to come out of the shadows into the light.

The Church imposes no “shadow” on anyone. The one wispering that information in your ear is not God. The Blessed Mother, I’m sure, did not consider herself to be in “the shadows” but rather serving God with humility. This is something we, both men and women, could learn to do more of. If a God given talent you have is in the shadow it’s usually because you place it there.

 

[karl4]

I don’t think St. Paul ever really understood women and misinterpreted the Holy Spirit as you can tell by what he writes about the female members of humanity… A little egocentric if you ask me. But then you probably wouldn’t ask me, would you? Okay back to the topic at hand.

Let me get this right… St Paul got it wrong, but you in all your devine inspiration have it right!? I’ll stay with St Paul . If he wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit why are his writings included in the Bible and if he is inspired by the Holy Spirit then it’s really not St Paul you believe is egocentric, but God. Am I following you?

 

[Joe_5859]

Wow, it sounds like you and your parish could use some prayers!

First, I want to say how sad I am for you and your situation. It’s a challenge to be sure.

Second, I want to make the point that neither the Charismatic Renewl nor Medjugorje are diametrically opposed to traditional Catholicism. That some people make it so is regrettable indeed, but what you are experiencing is not universal. I know a great many people who are Charismatic, support Medjugorje and are traditional Catholics. I say all this because I would hate to see your experience sour you on all people who identify themselves as Charismatic or supporters of Medjugorje.

In regards to the Church’s position on Medjugorje, it is helpful to look at what the Church does in regard to private revelation. There are three categories (1) The Church confirms that it is of supernatural origin; (2) The Church confirms that it is not of supernatural origin; and (3) The Church cannot confirm that it is of supernatural origin. Notice the distinction between the second and third category. The third category is more of a “we don’t know yet, but we’re still working on it.” Right now, this is where Medjugorje is at.

So, we should not be promoting Medjugorje as though it is already approved. Nor should we presume to know that such approval is “just around the corner.” None of us can really know that. And still less should we tell people that it is “better” than apparitions that have been approved. However, we should also avoid the opposite extreme of presuming that people who believe the apparitions in Medjugorje to be authentic are somehow less than fully Catholic. Certainly, we should all exercise caution and be prepared to follow the Church, but we don’t want to get involved in a mudslinging match.

I’m not sure what you are asking about when you say “preaching from the pulpit”. The homily at Mass is reserved to ordained clergy, but anyone can be a teacher.

You mention that your pastor is near retirement. I would still talk to him about your concerns and ask him if talking to the bishop would help. And start praying that your next pastor is strong enough to handle your parish!

 

[MikeDunphy]

I regret that I did not speak up when my parish organized a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. Parishes and dioceses are forbidden to organize such pilgrimages, although individuals are permitted to make private pilgrimages.