Advice for a traditionalist please

[belgianwaffles9]

Second, I want to make the point that neither the Charismatic Renewl nor Medjugorje are diametrically opposed to traditional Catholicism. That some people make it so is regrettable indeed, but what you are experiencing is not universal. I know a great many people who are Charismatic, support Medjugorje and are traditional Catholics. I say all this because I would hate to see your experience sour you on all people who identify themselves as Charismatic or supporters of Medjugorje.

Somehow i doubt it.

In regards to the Church’s position on Medjugorje, it is helpful to look at what the Church does in regard to private revelation. There are three categories (1) The Church confirms that it is of supernatural origin; (2) The Church confirms that it is not of supernatural origin; and (3) The Church cannot confirm that it is of supernatural origin. Notice the distinction between the second and third category. The third category is more of a “we don’t know yet, but we’re still working on it.” Right now, this is where Medjugorje is at.

So, we should not be promoting Medjugorje as though it is already approved. Nor should we presume to know that such approval is “just around the corner.” None of us can really know that. And still less should we tell people that it is “better” than apparitions that have been approved. However, we should also avoid the opposite extreme of presuming that people who believe the apparitions in Medjugorje to be authentic are somehow less than fully Catholic. Certainly, we should all exercise caution and be prepared to follow the Church, but we don’t want to get involved in a mudslinging match.

Private revelations fall first and foremost under the authority of the local bishop. As I have already pointed out, Ratko Peric, the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Herzegovnia has declared:

“It is therefore forbidden to claim or to declare in churches and religious communities that Our Lady has appeared or will yet appear in Medjugorje.”

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[PrayHarder]

I don’t see how Joe 5859’s and belgianwaffles9’s repsonses are in conflict with each other. In fact, the seem to support a similar idea. The bishop in Mostar is correct in that churches and parishes are not permitted to claim the authenticity of the events surrounding Medjugorje. In doing so they would be taking a position in an offical capacity before any official investigation has taken place. Joe5859 echos that same idea when he says that no one should go around promoting Medjugorje as if the Church has already approved it.

The fact is that the Church has not approved anything and when all is said and done, maybe it never will. But I feel that we shouldn’t condem something that has increased the faith and brought many people [back] to the Church. Nor should we attack those who are skeptical of the situation. In my opinion, of all the issues and attacks on traditional Catholic values and practices going on today we shouldn’t be making Medjugorje the wedge issue.

 

[Joe_5859]

Somehow i doubt it.

I’m not sure why you doubt it. I’m just stating my own experience. Maybe your experience is different.

Private revelations fall first and foremost under the authority of the local bishop. As I have already pointed out, Ratko Peric, the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Herzegovnia has declared:

“It is therefore forbidden to claim or to declare in churches and religious communities that Our Lady has appeared or will yet appear in Medjugorje.”

Seems pretty clear to me.

You are correct that private revelations first fall under the authority of the local Ordinary. However, in this particular case, Rome has taken on the investigation and it hasn’t been definitively settled yet.

As PrayHarder pointed out, though, there really is no contradiction between what I was trying to say and the bishop’s statement. There are not supposed to be official parish or diocesan pilgrimages, but neither are personal pilgrimages forbidden. We shouldn’t declare it in the Church as though it has already been approved, but it doesn’t mean people can’t, for the time being, believe in it personally.

 

[Dauphin]

Okay, enlighten me. Seriously, I won’t take your head off. Which is free from error, the Bible, or Cathollic Doctrine? I know Catholic Doctrine is free from error, but since when does Catholic Doctrine say it is okay to make one gender lower than the other? Didn’t Paul also say, in "Galatians 3:28 “Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.” Doesn’t “One” mean equal? All parts making up One? No part less nor more than another? I would think that means equal in “all things”, especially in spreading the word of God.
…

St. Paul doesn’t mean to say that one gender is inferior to the other. St. Paul is saying that women have a very different role to play - one which does not involve public instruction or the wielding of authority over men.

Both Catholic doctrine and the Bible are free from error.

I completely sympathize with your difficulty in accepting this teaching. We’ve all been raised in a secular, liberal society. We’ve been trained by society to find many of the things contained in Biblical revelation and Catholic doctrine to be repulsive, and it’s a difficult conditioning to overcome. All I can recommend is prayer to God to help you accept whatever is contained in Catholic teaching.

 

[Lilyflower]

JMJ, I’m speechless. is this really a Catholic parish. My heart goes out to you. Pray,pray, pray.

I must confess to having once been a member myself of the Renewal Movement.

I got my first real insiight when we had a traditional Priest [a convert from Anglicanism] who was literally BROUGHT TO HIS KNEES by this group because he would not accept or condone their style of worship and things they asked him to do.

On speaking to him, discovered he was being seriously harrassed and harranged, including playing loud music in the parish hall until the small hours to disturb his nights sleep in the hopes he would resign.

I am not ashamed to say I was angry, very angry that anyone could show such contempt for a Priest of God. I renounced the Movement and did all in my power to challenge his aweful treatment, not least to write to the Bishop pointing out that all the letters of complaint he had been receiving were false in their entirety. The outcome was vastly greater than I could have achieved and give the credit entirely to the hand of Almighty God.

We won. The ringleaders left the parish in disgust. The movement disintegrated. Our parish enjoyed a stable period of 12-years until the priest was eventually moved on. His replacement is our current priest. About 3-4 years ago, the Renewal Movement leaders started to move back into the parish again and are re-claiming their old ground.

All traditionalists are systematically experiencing a lot of grief and many have decided to leave. I have been targetted by false witness, not least because of my stance [at the PP’s request] to removw posters promoting Benny Hinn as fast as they could put them up. I have decided to stand and fight. But I need information. I am very grateful for all the help you have given me and ask for your prayers.

Blessings and peace

 

[Lilyflower]

I think that what stings me the most is one of their number a server who insists on standing next to the priest during those parts of the Mass when altar servers should not be, nor need by in the Sanctuary.

I serve but I am not worthy to be within a billion miles of Sacrament but can accept by God’s mercy I may go into the Sanctuary when I have tasks to perform. But I would not go there and stay there standing next to the Priest where a Deacon would stand.

Perhaps I am being overly critical but this guy is very heavily Medjegorie. He really believes the Mass is better for his presence, he stands so serenly next to the priest but just feel sick when I see it, such arrogance.

The Priest is a kindly man who does not want to rock the boat. He is tolerating freemasonry because he told me he has left it upto the individual conscience and will not speak out against it.

He is a true Saint but he is also having his kindness and tolerance abused.

Blessings and peace.

 

[elts1956]

Let me get this right… St Paul got it wrong, but you in all your devine inspiration have it right!? I’ll stay with St Paul . If he wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit why are his writings included in the Bible and if he is inspired by the Holy Spirit then it’s really not St Paul you believe is egocentric, but God. Am I following you?

Absolutely correct. No, I think he had a negative attitude toward women. I just wonder if he was inspired by the Holy Spirit on his take of women’s roles in the Church? I wonder how many women of his day agreed with him? St. Paul is a saint, I’m definitely not, but even saints are sometimes affected by the society in which they live. Are you following me?

When someone tells me to keep my mouth shut, even though I could possibly explain a belief as well as that person, I do get huffy.

Speaking of huffy, do not misread my intentions . I am not disparaging all that St. Paul has said. Only his take on women’s roles in the early church. If not for him, I probably wouldn’t even be Catholic. So let’s dialogue, not attack one another.

 

[karl4]

I must confess to having once been a member myself of the Renewal Movement.

I got my first real insiight when we had a traditional Priest [a convert from Anglicanism] who was literally BROUGHT TO HIS KNEES by this group because he would not accept or condone their style of worship and things they asked him to do.

On speaking to him, discovered he was being seriously harrassed and harranged, including playing loud music in the parish hall until the small hours to disturb his nights sleep in the hopes he would resign.

I am not ashamed to say I was angry, very angry that anyone could show such contempt for a Priest of God. I renounced the Movement and did all in my power to challenge his aweful treatment, not least to write to the Bishop pointing out that all the letters of complaint he had been receiving were false in their entirety. The outcome was vastly greater than I could have achieved and give the credit entirely to the hand of Almighty God.

We won. The ringleaders left the parish in disgust. The movement disintegrated. Our parish enjoyed a stable period of 12-years until the priest was eventually moved on. His replacement is our current priest. About 3-4 years ago, the Renewal Movement leaders started to move back into the parish again and are re-claiming their old ground.

All traditionalists are systematically experiencing a lot of grief and many have decided to leave. I have been targetted by false witness, not least because of my stance [at the PP’s request] to removw posters promoting Benny Hinn as fast as they could put them up. I have decided to stand and fight. But I need information. I am very grateful for all the help you have given me and ask for your prayers.

Blessings and peace

God bless you in your struggle…I will remember you and your struggles during my morning mass. Never ever back down …move forward in humility. It is in this humility that God will work through you. The devil is desperate… he’ll use anyone and anything towards the destruction of your soul. Pray, pray, pray.

 

[karl4]

Absolutely correct. I just wonder if he was inspired by the Holy Spirit on his take of women’s roles in the Church? I wonder how many women of his day agreed with him? St. Paul is a saint, I’m definitely not, but even saints are sometimes affected by the society in which they live. Are you following me?

When someone tells me to keep my mouth shut, even though I could possibly explain a belief as well as that person, I do get huffy.

Speaking of huffy, do not misread my intentions . I am not disparaging all that St. Paul has said. Only his take on women’s roles in the early church. If not for him, I probably wouldn’t even be Catholic. So let’s dialogue, not attack one another.

I certainly do not mean to attack…I only can respond to your original statement. And I do follow your line of thinking it’s just that I don’t believe that St. Paul meant women as “less than”.
I , as the head of my household, am no greater than my wife. We are equal yet both with our own roles to play. And please never let someone tell you to keep your mouth shut for the reason you stated. It sort of made me think that maybe there is a male figure in your life who has lead you to believe St Paul meant “less than” in a demeaning or derogatory way. I’m sorry if I’m a million miles off…it won’t be the first time. Once again sorry if I offended.

 

[elts1956]

I certainly do not mean to attack…I only can respond to your original statement. And I do follow your line of thinking it’s just that I don’t believe that St. Paul meant women as “less than”.
I , as the head of my household, am no greater than my wife. We are equal yet both with our own roles to play. And please never let someone tell you to keep your mouth shut for the reason you stated. It sort of made me think that maybe there is a male figure in your life who has lead you to believe St Paul meant “less than” in a demeaning or derogatory way. I’m sorry if I’m a million miles off…it won’t be the first time. Once again sorry if I offended.

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it is I who am a million miles off about St. Paul. For some reason, I have always taken offense at what he says about women’s roles in his writings. Can’t remember if there was a male figure in my life who led me to believe that, but I was raised in the society of the 40s, 50s and 60s where accepted roles for women were wife, mother, religious, nurse, or teacher. First I chose teaching then wife, then motherhood, then teaching again. Not much opportunity for expansion of the brain in those days.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it is I who am a million miles off about St. Paul. For some reason, I have always taken offense at what he says about women’s roles in his writings. Can’t remember if there was a male figure in my life who led me to believe that, but I was raised in the society of the 40s, 50s and 60s where accepted roles for women were wife, mother, religious, nurse, or teacher. First I chose teaching then wife, then motherhood, then teaching again. Not much opportunity for expansion of the brain in those days.

Have you ever noticed, that with the possible exception of Chloe, whenever St. Paul speaking of individual women by name, it’s in glowing terms?

 

[eelpis]

Leave the place ASAP if it’s damaging your Catholic faith.

The revolution is not over…
This post leaves me thinking , how come OF Catholics cannot understand the plight of trads these last decades??

 

[karl4]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it is I who am a million miles off about St. Paul. For some reason, I have always taken offense at what he says about women’s roles in his writings. Can’t remember if there was a male figure in my life who led me to believe that, but I was raised in the society of the 40s, 50s and 60s where accepted roles for women were wife, mother, religious, nurse, or teacher. First I chose teaching then wife, then motherhood, then teaching again. Not much opportunity for expansion of the brain in those days.

Please don’t look or speak of the womens “role” in a negative way. I view my wife and the way she handles my kids and I thank God in all his infinite wisdom for making women to be the gentler sex. How blessed is man kind to have had women in our lives who emulate the Blessed Mother. Countless families/souls would have been lost had it not been for loving mothers(St. Augustine). It sounds to me you were one of these women. So thank you.

 

[elts1956]

Have you ever noticed, that with the possible exception of Chloe, whenever St. Paul speaking of individual women by name, it’s in glowing terms?

No, have never noticed that. Guess I’ll have to look a bit more closely.

 

[elts1956]

Have you ever noticed, that with the possible exception of Chloe, whenever St. Paul speaking of individual women by name, it’s in glowing terms?

Please don’t look or speak of the womens “role” in a negative way. I view my wife and the way she handles my kids and I thank God in all his infinite wisdom for making women to be the gentler sex. How blessed is man kind to have had women in our lives who emulate the Blessed Mother. Countless families/souls would have been lost had it not been for loving mothers(St. Augustine). It sounds to me you were one of these women. So thank you.

Sounds like you are a more “aware” member of the male species who truly appreciates his wife. However, you are possibly an exception. Yes, thank God for mothers. Without them children would never grow up to be either disciplined or loving. Too bad more men aren’t right in there with the wife recognizing it takes two to raise children. Do you happen to be standing in front of my pointed index finger? If I read you right, please do not cast aspersions on my mother, one of the sweetest, loving persons who ever lived. And if I did read you right, you owe my mother an apology.

 

[karl4]

Sounds like you are a more “aware” member of the male species who truly appreciates his wife. However, you are possibly an exception. Yes, thank God for mothers. Without them children would never grow up to be either disciplined or loving. Too bad more men aren’t right in there with the wife recognizing it takes two to raise children. Do you happen to be standing in front of my pointed index finger? If I read you right, please do not cast aspersions on my mother, one of the sweetest, loving persons who ever lived. And if I did read you right, you owe my mother an apology.

First of all- I am in fact not an exception, I know many men who believe the same way I do. That’s what the world wants you to believe. Find one positive male role model on TV!!!. Second—You sound as though you have bought this world view of men hook line and sinker. " without them children would never grow up to be either disciplined or loving". That must be a personal experience. I was disciplined by my father and I do likewise with my four. Third–How do you take that compliment and make it something bad?. Is it because I’m a man and therefore couldn’t possibly have anything positive to say about women?. That’s truly sad. Best of luck. God Bless.

 

[rwoehmke]

I have heard several explanations of Paul’s statement in Timothy about women teaching in Church or teaching men. Several Baptists I know see it as a absolute prohibition. I have read some Catholic commentary which said Paul was saying women were not to be preaching during the liturgy, but outside of Mass there was no problem. Another take was that Paul was dealing with some outspoken women, like those “off the track” Charismatics in Aussie land, who were too big for their britches in a particular church.

I have known some older Catholic gals, my age, which is grey hair age, who came to Jesus with some non-Catholic Pentecostals. They can really mess up a perfectly legitimate Catholic Charismatic prayer group with their protestant grasp of the theology of the Holy Spirit. They are often hell-bent on having things their way and can be very formidable.

 

[elts1956]

First of all- I am in fact not an exception, I know many men who believe the same way I do. That’s what the world wants you to believe. Find one positive male role model on TV!!!. Second—You sound as though you have bought this world view of men hook line and sinker. " without them children would never grow up to be either disciplined or loving". That must be a personal experience. I was disciplined by my father and I do likewise with my four. Third–How do you take that compliment and make it something bad?. Is it because I’m a man and therefore couldn’t possibly have anything positive to say about women?. That’s truly sad. Best of luck. God Bless.

So sorry I misunderstood your compliment. The only thing I can say, is that apparently I grew up in quite a different world than you. Don’t know your age, perhaps that makes a difference on our outlook. I basiclly raised our children by myself, my husband was too busy working and had limited interaction with the family. This was the way he was raised.

 

[karl4]

So sorry I misunderstood your compliment. The only thing I can say, is that apparently I grew up in quite a different world than you. Don’t know your age, perhaps that makes a difference on our outlook. I basiclly raised our children by myself, my husband was too busy working and had limited interaction with the family. This was the way he was raised.

In my forties and was brought up under the same mentality as you. I decided at an early age it was time to break that cycle. So for so good.

 

[piojunbabia]

AS far as I know Medjugure is not approved by the Church because it is a false apparition… I dont know why its false. need to do more research eh!