Advice on modesty

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My dear pro-life teen - Do an internet search for “Challenge Clubs” this is a Catholic teen girl’s leradership club that has made great inroads in this area. I think they call it the “Pure Fashion Fashion Show” or something like that. They have appeared on TV shows and have influenced some of the big department stores.

In Atlanta, this show is a huge hit annually and is done in cooperation with the most exclusive mall (Lenox Mall) in Atlanta.

God Bless you for your courage and leadership.
 
Sweetchuck and Chicago–good posts–I think they will be helpful to the question raised originally.

…and lead us not into the mall, but deliver us from Limited II.
 
Thanks, everyone, I really appreciate your advice! I am going to be giving this talk as part of a series (we start off with prayer, the difference between abstinence and chastity, dating, how far is too far, pornography, (modesty would go here), purity renewed, Reconciliation, tips on staying pure, and Q and As).

I do talk with a guy on the topic of modesty, so his perspective is also there. I am also going to take the advice of asking a woman whom I think dresses well to evaluate my clothes.
I think your original post is honest and authentic and would make a great talk.
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Thanks, I was actually also wondering if I approached my talk similarly if it would be effective!
Daniel Kane, I hadn’t heard of Challenge Clubs, but I’ll check it out! Thanks!
That’s exactly what you are! A tabernacle! You’re Catholic, right? What do you think you become when you take communion every Sunday? A living breathing tabernacle, a dwelling place for Christ Himself! Act modestly out of reverence toward Him and His home: Your body!
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Thanks Sweetchuck, I hope you don’t mind if I use this in my talk- I think it is so beautiful!

So thanks again everyone for your prayers and advice, I really appreciate it!

What do you think are good general guidelines I could suggest for modest dressing- like “no black bras under white shirts.” Do you all have any more?
 
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Tlaloc:
If the midrift can be overtly seductive, why not the face?

The point is they are completely arbitrary boundaries and of the same mindset that compels muslim women to wear Burkas.

I’d posit that rather than rely on the arbitrary line chosen by some anonymous random internet poster the young woman might be better served by simply determining for herself what she considers modest or immodest. Then she can stay within the bounds that make her comfortable rather than some stranger.
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I disagree. The limits of modesty may be subjective, but it’s something that is determined by society - not by each individual. In some places it may be that going around shirtless does not tempt any of the males in the community to lust. There may also be communities where exposing the ears or toes can tempt one’s fellow Christians.

I think that if a person wants to know what is modest, they need to figure out what would expose a member of the opposite sex to significant temptation. In the US, unfortunately, women have been so visually objectified that a young man like myself finds it difficult to overcome the media’s messages about the female body at times. I really do appreciate it when women dress modestly: it really does help me avoid sin and give them more of the respect they deserve.

I think we are all obligated to help each other out. I’ll add that modesty may be more of an issue for women than it is for men, but men have an obligation to be modest too.
 
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DaveBj:
Perhaps the #2 thing is that if someone dresses like she’s sexually available, but she really isn’t, that’s false advertising. And the unfortunate thing about false advertising is that sooner or later there’s going to come along a “buyer” who isn’t going to take “no” for an answer. That’s not something that the feminists want to hear, but it’s the truth.

DaveBk
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I think you have to be careful when saying things like that. Yeah, entering into situations where sex is likely expected and looking like you’re ready to make it available can be dangerous. As someone who got chewed out by a classmate in his Psychology of Women class for trying to explain that this is not “blaming the victim,” I just want to point out that you can’t be too sensitive in making that point. 🙂

And really, I think this is an issue that should prompt us to try and form ranks with the feminists. I think they have some interesting observations as to the causes and results of the culture’s hypersexualized view of the female body.

Oh! And I forgot. Prolifeteen - what you’re doing is really commendable. Good luck!
 
*pro-life_teen*:
Thanks Sweetchuck, I hope you don’t mind if I use this in my talk- I think it is so beautiful!
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As I read through the thread, I became discouraged after reading Tlaloc’s posts attempting to connect my line of thinking with repression of women, as if I and those who equate women with lower beings are one in the same! But PLT, your affirmation of my post more than makes up for the rebuke of Tlaloc.

Of course I don’t mind if you use something I said in your talk! My thoughts are not mine to posess. I share them for all. If I have a pure thought that brings someone closer to God, that in itself is a gift from God, and I am to share it (Matt. 25:14-30). Because the true gift lies not in that God gives someone a gift to keep all to himself or herself, but that God reaches from one person to the next to the next to the next and so on.

God bless and good luck with your talk. To whom is it addressed?
 
*pro-life_teen*:
Not only that, but I personally don’t think I’ve attained that virtue well yet.
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And by the way, you’re well on your way to that virtue. Humility, which you express here, is essential in coming to understanding and will carry you to the side of the Lord.

As the angel Gabriel says to Daniel (10:12)
’ “Fear not, Daniel,” he continued; “from the first day you made up your mind to acquire understanding and humble yourself before God, your prayer was heard.” ’

James 4:10
“Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.”
 
Maybe you could bring some examples of modest, stylish clothes to show during your talk? I admit those are difficult to find out there and I get especially frustrated with summer clothes. Do you have a Maurices near you? They have some good modest clothes (not everything, but a lot.)

Another thing to examine is motive. Encouraging teens to ask what their motive is behind the clothes they wear - is it to attract attention to themselves? Is it to show off an area of their body they think is especially attractive, though may be indecent (such as cleavage)? Or is it to honor themselves as a child of God and wear something attractive without being revealing? Such as a shirt that’s not clingy but not baggy either with a color that looks good on you.

Also, you might look at the way men think since that’s something girls may or may not be aware of. Jason Evert’s books and pamphlets are good resources for this - just how guys tend to be more visual. And if we want to treat them as brothers in Christ and not hinder their Christian walk, why would we wear clothing that might bring them down and tempt them? You can refer to what Jesus said about looking at a woman lustfully being equal to adultery - if it’s a Christian/Catholic talk of course.
 
You might want to check out Jason and Crystalina Evert’s “Pure Love Club”. You can get to it from catholic.com. They cover the whole gamut of stuff that seems to be in your talk.
 
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Catholic_Mike:
I disagree. The limits of modesty may be subjective, but it’s something that is determined by society - not by each individual. In some places it may be that going around shirtless does not tempt any of the males in the community to lust. There may also be communities where exposing the ears or toes can tempt one’s fellow Christians.
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Well in that case I’d have to argue that bare midrifts have been embraced by our society. As has wearing low cut jeans and thong underwear. See the problem with this argument is that the whole point of “modesty” is to go above and beyond what society accepts, otherwise its not modesty, it’s just common sense.
 
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sweetchuck:
As I read through the thread, I became discouraged after reading Tlaloc’s posts attempting to connect my line of thinking with repression of women, as if I and those who equate women with lower beings are one in the same! But PLT, your affirmation of my post more than makes up for the rebuke of Tlaloc.
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I’m not trying to insult you but can you honestly find any significant difference between the statement “showing a bare midrift is immodest and shouldn’t happen” and “showing a bare face is immodest and shouldn’t happen”? Its the same mentality you just aren’t going to the same extreme. Again I don’t mean that as an attack on you as a person but as something you may not have realized about yourself. If you object to women being forced to wear burkas in muslim societies then its worthwhile for you to examine what thinking you may have that follows the same pattern.

Its not about trying to make you feel bad or appear foolish, its about helping you maybe see a flaw in your thinking from which you may be able to grow as a human being. Confronting our own false assumptions can be painful but ultimately its how we better ourselves.
 
Mid 30’s guy here.

Tlaloc, your objections reveal an ignorance about modesty. It is, in part, a practice of charity in that it helps others avoid the occasion of sin. Therefore, asking others what they find to be immodest assists her in performing this charitable act.

Guys, as noted, are incredibly visual. But things vary by guy.
Midriffs cause me no temptation. Many other parts do.

I’d be a better man if there were no low cut tops and women used all but the very top button.

Ever wonder why so many womens pants have no pockets on the back? Trust me, it’s not to save on fabric cost.

Sleeveless shirts with excessive arm hole sizes don’t help either.

I don’t see jewelry, shoes or makeup as modesty issues. Bling and painted faces don’t really tempt me. But overdoing it might possibly send the wrong message to some.

On the topic of dress related to rape; it is indefensible to imply fault to a rape victim for what she wore. This can never be a defense offered by such a criminal.

But feminists overshoot when they say rape is about power, not sex. Therefore, they say a woman’s dress is irrelevent. But immodest dress can be about power. Power to incite desire. Power to make one’s self be noticed. Such things can make a morally depraved man with the desire, but not the social skills feel toyed with and powerless.

Yes, this gets me in trouble with modern women. They say I am saying it is partly the woman’s fault. Bunk. Do we let road rage offenders off for running somebody off the road if they can prove the guy ‘flipped the bird’ first? Of course not. Same concept.
 
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Tlaloc:
I’m not trying to insult you but can you honestly find any significant difference between the statement “showing a bare midrift is immodest and shouldn’t happen” and “showing a bare face is immodest and shouldn’t happen”?
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as is “showing a bare buttocks is immodest and shouldn’t happen”?

Is there a significant difference there, too, or am I still trying to keep women repressed?
 
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sweetchuck:
as is “showing a bare buttocks is immodest and shouldn’t happen”?

Is there a significant difference there, too, or am I still trying to keep women repressed?
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If that is the logic you use to dictate modesty then yes. Any statement along those lines stems from the same mindset. What you need is a different perspective.

Example: “modesty is served by the person deciding what clothing they feel protects them from advertising sexually.” See now we aren’t dictating our arbitrary choice to someone else but allowing them to find what is right according to their own sensibilities.

Different mindset, better result.
 
Tlaloc said:
“modesty is served by the person deciding what clothing they feel protects them from advertising sexually.” See now we aren’t dictating our arbitrary choice to someone else but allowing them to find what is right according to their own sensibilities.

Different mindset, better result.
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No one is dictating anything. She asked what people find troublesome. She is in the same basic culture as us. We have provided our (name removed by moderator)ut on what we find difficult.

Again, you do not appear to understand the concept. Modesty is an act of charity, not just personal feel-good-ism.
 
One thing that you might want to point out is that low-cut shirts don’t have to be avoided, they just need a tank top underneath! It’s simple, you can still be fashionable, and it helps you stay modest. Also, one thing that I’ve found to work quite well is to wear a wife-beater (I know, awful term), tucked in, under most tops. This way you can wear whatever underwear you want and when you bend over, noone will see it. Or when you sit down, you don’t have to worry about butt-cleavage or anything. And when you bend over, noone can look down your blouse. These are just a couple practical tips. And I like the point about motives. These are just simple tips to where you can still wear what you want, and hopefully not tempt anyone to lust.

In Christ,
jp2fan
 
Aside from the practical matters of actual clothing, remember that modesty isn’t just about how one dresses. Rather, it’s a cultivated virtue which is deeper. It’s more about a humble, honest recognition of who one is. How one dresses is merely an expression of that. If one doesn’t recognize their own dignity or it trying to be extravegant and showy, they have to ask themselves why they are going to such extremes and aren’t entirely in control of themselves. It’s essentially a self-respect matter.
 
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goravens:
Another thing to examine is motive. Encouraging teens to ask what their motive is behind the clothes they wear - is it to attract attention to themselves? Is it to show off an area of their body they think is especially attractive, though may be indecent (such as cleavage)? Or is it to honor themselves as a child of God and wear something attractive without being revealing? Such as a shirt that’s not clingy but not baggy either with a color that looks good on you.
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Great point! Also, we do model a lot of our talks after Jason and Crystallina Evert’s books and video. Our audience is pre-Confirmation, Confirmation, and parochial school classes. We have also received an invitation to talk at a True Love Waits conference and our city’s Eucharistic Congress youth day, which should be a lot of fun!
One thing that you might want to point out is that low-cut shirts don’t have to be avoided, they just need a tank top underneath! It’s simple, you can still be fashionable, and it helps you stay modest. Also, one thing that I’ve found to work quite well is to wear a wife-beater (I know, awful term), tucked in, under most tops. This way you can wear whatever underwear you want and when you bend over, noone will see it. Or when you sit down, you don’t have to worry about butt-cleavage or anything. And when you bend over, noone can look down your blouse. These are just a couple practical tips. And I like the point about motives. These are just simple tips to where you can still wear what you want, and hopefully not tempt anyone to lust.
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That is also a great tip! Go layering! Also, they have really cute camisoles you can wear under that have pretty colors and material.

Tlaloc, I respect your opinions, but I am asking for tips on what people generally find immodest in our culture today. Thanks! 🙂
 
*pro-life_teen*:
Tlaloc, I respect your opinions, but I am asking for tips on what people generally find immodest in our culture today. Thanks! 🙂
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The point above ( that you agree with) about the person asking themselves why they wear what they wear is getting to exactly what I’ve been talking about. Basing it on an internal process of dialogue rather than arbitrary external opinion. Perhaps I’ve stated it poorly. Anyway even if its not from me I’m glad you find value in that perspective.
 
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