Advice/Thoughts - Re: a LDS friend/co-worker

[Jerusha]

If you know your own faith and are strong in it, I don’t see how reading the BOM would be damaging to your soul. I just don’t. The only way it could is if it causes you to believe falsehoods. I admit it would have that potential, but if you don’t…just reading it can’t cause you any damage. I think it could do the opposite. It could lead you to an even greater appreciation of the Truth that you have. I also don’t at all see how reading the BOM is a compromise with the Truth of the faith you currently hold.

IMHO, I think many Catholics are afraid to read it, particularly in the context of having a Mormon around who will give them THEIR view of the book. It is much better for a Catholic to be able to read it with Catholic guidance. Then that anxiety disappears, and one can see the good parts, and toss the rubbish.

Like I said, it is easily available on the internet, without missionary interference. Nobody needs a hard copy any more.

 

[SteveVH]

IMHO, I think many Catholics are afraid to read it, particularly in the context of having a Mormon around who will give them THEIR view of the book. It is much better for a Catholic to be able to read it with Catholic guidance. Then that anxiety disappears, and one can see the good parts, and toss the rubbish.

Like I said, it is easily available on the internet, without missionary interference. Nobody needs a hard copy any more.

What “good parts” does it have that we do not already possess? Personally, when I started reading it I got physically ill and had the distinct feeling that this wasn’t something I should be doing. Very weird. I gave it back to the missionaries on their return. Other than the portions lifted from the Bible I can’t think of any value there at all.

Steve

 

[QuestLove]

I agree with you, Horton.

I certainly would not take the BoM, because that might give her the impression that she already has a “foot in the door”, which she could misinterpret as an invitation for her to try and proselytize. I would not be surprised if missionaries did come knocking on your door, as a result. I believe the advice that others have already given about being a good Christian example for her, and leaving out any discussion of either religion in the workplace, is your best course of action. You don’t want to cause any negative repercussions that might happen as a result of any hard feelings that develop between you, that could also affect your work, or your position in the company. I would steer clear just to avoid anything like that happening.

This
I made this mistake with JW because it was an older lady and friend of the family and I didn’t want to hurt her feelings. But pretty soon I was being hounded. I have learned since then to quietly and forcefully say “no thank you”.

As someone else pointed out she may not even read the book you give her if she is bent on converting you.

 

[Marie5890]

IMHO, I think many Catholics are afraid to read it, particularly in the context of having a Mormon around who will give them THEIR view of the book. It is much better for a Catholic to be able to read it with Catholic guidance. Then that anxiety disappears, and one can see the good parts, and toss the rubbish.

Like I said, it is easily available on the internet, without missionary interference. Nobody needs a hard copy any more.

^^^^This…

It’s easy to read online if someone wants to read it.
That way they can read and know no one is trying to convert them.
For someone to give you a copy is a missionary tactic pure and simple.

 

[Jerusha]

What “good parts” does it have that we do not already possess? Personally, when I started reading it I got physically ill and had the distinct feeling that this wasn’t something I should be doing. Very weird. I gave it back to the missionaries on their return. Other than the portions lifted from the Bible I can’t think of any value there at all.

Steve

Yes, most of the good parts are lifted from the Bible. Some stories are interesting, even though most are patterned after Biblical stories. The first time I tried to read it, I got indigestion. even though I read it without any missionary influence. Finally, after nearly throwing the rubbish across the room, I skimmed it, crossed out the preaching, then read it for the narrative.

Poster JohnGerard might not be Catholic, I was trying to be polite.

 

[JohnGerard]

Hey Jerusha,

I am Catholic actually. I have read the BOM in its entirety and found it to be a difficult read. The N.T. is so historically believable with names and places we can visit even today, etc. The BOM was hard for me to read because of that lack of historicity. For example, it doesn’t have any maps so I had to try to imagine where the town of Bountiful and Zarahemla might be, and I don’t think we can visit those places today. It really read like a book of fiction to me so I did struggle with it as others here have said. Honestly, I didn’t find any “good parts” worth keeping. I didn’t see anything in there that I need as a Christian because of the richness of the Faith we already have. But I do see the value in reading it because then a person can have a better understanding of the LDS faith when speaking with LDS members. I know this is a generalization that doesn’t apply to all LDS, but I once heard a ex-LDS person say that if you read the BOM, you just may have read more of it than the LDS friend you are talking to. (Of course, that’s been greatly said about us Catholics as well…its easy to talk to Catholics because they don’t read their bibles )

 

[Telstar]

Yes, most of the good parts are lifted from the Bible. Some stories are interesting, even though most are patterned after Biblical stories. The first time I tried to read it, I got indigestion. even though I read it without any missionary influence. Finally, after nearly throwing the rubbish across the room, I skimmed it, crossed out the preaching, then read it for the narrative.

I’ve read some of it because I knew a lot of Mormons from another private online forum, and every now and then something related to the BoM would come up. I’ve also read a lot to respond to many threads on CAF. Every time I do, I get a very unsettled “antsy” feeling. It certainly didn’t leave me with anything like the feeling I get from reading the Gospels. The emotions I feel when I read the BoM, are extreme nervousness (antsy), and at times down right anger. The other things that bother me are absolute frustration and confusion over the writing style itself, and a story that makes very little sense to me. I really don’t find it to be edifying like the Bible is, or ‘beautiful’, as some friends on the other forum claimed it to be. After trying to read it for a while, I usually just get aggravated.

For one thing, the repetitive lines that are used over and over again, ad nauseam, drive me absolutely crazy. Mormons seem to think it reflects the usage in the OT, but that just doesn’t explain it. The OT doesn’t repeat them a ridiculous number of times in a short section or chapter. And, it’s not just the catch phrases, like, “Behold… such and such”, or, “And it came to pass”, but in one paragraph the same admonition or idea is repeated several times, each time using slightly different wording, but they all mean exactly the same thing. It makes me want to pull my hair out.

Poster JohnGerard might not be Catholic, I was trying to be polite.

I got the same impression. Either he’s a naive Catholic and has never had any kind of contact with LDS, and has no idea what kind of tactics they use, or, he’s actually LDS and trying to make the rest of us look ‘mean spirited’. I hope it’s the former and not the latter.

EDIT: my apologies to JohnGerard, question answered.

 

[Jerusha]

Hey Jerusha,

I am Catholic actually. I have read the BOM in its entirety and found it to be a difficult read. The N.T. is so historically believable with names and places we can visit even today, etc. The BOM was hard for me to read because of that lack of historicity… I know this is a generalization that doesn’t apply to all LDS, but I once heard a ex-LDS person say that if you read the BOM, you just may have read more of it than the LDS friend you are talking to. (Of course, that’s been greatly said about us Catholics as well…its easy to talk to Catholics because they don’t read their bibles )

Thank you for your clarification. Those of us who experienced harassment from Mormons before trying to read their book tend to be more anxious about reading it. IMHO, symptomatic of PTSD. May be better to preface it with the Book of Abraham.

We generally are more familiar with a broad view of the Bible, if we are regular Mass-goers. Not like some sects, which over-emphasize some passages and neglect others which provide balance. And we have access to 2000 years of exegesis.

The individual stories, like the last chapters of Ether, Ammon’s first work as a missionary, and the one in Ether that mimics the death of John the Baptist, are interesting out of context. Improbable tragedy, comedy, and blatant anachronism make those stories worth reading.

The best parts are prophecies of the end of the LDS faith. Pride in material wealth, for one thing. The mission to the Zoramites is also funny in that reapect. Their obsession with the belief in its literal truth is a diversion from the spiritual truths, derived from the Bible.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Manipulation is apparent in a steering of the conversation to religious books, when the interest was to proselytize with a Book of Mormon.

waxwing, your coworker may have no intention to read anything you suggest, just as you have no intention to read a BoM. I’d take the advice already given, to stop trying to convert each other.

The giving of the book is also part of the commitment pattern, I’ll do this for you, will you commit to doing this for me. Gift giving sets up a low obligation.

 

[Marie5890]

I’ve recently re-read the BoM.

It was striking as to how false it is when it comes to it’s claim as sacred scripture.

Certainly a work of fiction, which, like any work of fiction, can elicit feelings. And feelings more certainly be deceptive.

I can watch the movie “Bambi” and have a emotional response. And you know what? That response doesn’t keep Bambi from being a movie, and a cartoon movie at that.

 

[TexanKnight]

I was talking to an atheist who said the same thing about the Bible and Biblical stories as y’all are saying about Book or Mormon stories. There are many many origins of Biblical stories that many claim to have come from other places.

I suppose it all has to do with faith and what the Spirit guides you to believe…right?

 

[Marie5890]

I was talking to an atheist who said the same thing about the Bible and Biblical stories as y’all are saying about Book or Mormon stories. There are many many origins of Biblical stories that many claim to have come from other places.

I suppose it all has to do with faith and what the Spirit guides you to believe…right?

No, it has to do with the ability to reason as well.

St Pope John Paul II’s ***Fides et Ratio *** explains the importance of both.

And I have never met an atheist who says the places (geography) mentioned in the Bible didn’t/ don’t exist.

We know Jerusalem, and so on and so forth are real places. Reason and scholarship tell us that. We dont need faith for that.

But the geography mention in the BoM? No evidence whatsoever.

TK, I see that your profile identifies you as LDS. Strange twist it appears to me, IMO.

 

[TexanKnight]

No, it has to do with the ability to reason as well.

St Pope John Paul II’s ***Fides et Ratio *** explains the importance of both.

And I have never met an atheist who says the places (geography) mentioned in the Bible didn’t/ don’t exist.

We know Jerusalem, and so on and so forth are real places. Reason and scholarship tell us that. We dont need faith for that.

But the geography mention in the BoM? No evidence whatsoever.

TK, I see that your profile identifies you as LDS. Strange twist it appears to me, IMO.

Ok…then what about the flood? You want reason? Explain the flood. The problem is…the fact you can walk Jerusalem means nothing. Or, it could prove the Jewish faith or Muslim faith to be THE true faith. …

Say what you want, but you need as much faith to be Catholic as I do to be LDS.

 

[Marie5890]

Ok…then what about the flood? You want reason? Explain the flood. The problem is…the fact you can walk Jerusalem means nothing. Or, it could prove the Jewish faith or Muslim faith to be THE true faith. …

Say what you want, but you need as much faith to be Catholic as I do to be LDS.

The fact that Jerusalem does exist does mean something. It means we can use reason as much as we can use faith.

As Catholic we don’t see it as either reason or faith…

It’s both.
We know Jerusalem exists. We know that the Jewish temple exists, and still does as a ruin. We know that the anciet Hebrews were a real people, for their decendents are still amongst us. We know that Israel, both as a place and as a people, existed, and still do.

We have BOTH faith **AND ** reason to look to.

How does the saying go? “Reason without faith is paganism. Faith without reason is fanaticism”

You certainly have the free will to live by faith and faith alone.
I am grateful that the Lord has given both the ability to exercise faith and also the intellectual ability to use reason.

We are made in the “image and likeness of God”. We are meant to use our intellect and to reason for we seek Truth. And Truth needs both faith and reason.

 

[Horton]

Ok…then what about the flood? You want reason? Explain the flood. The problem is…the fact you can walk Jerusalem means nothing. Or, it could prove the Jewish faith or Muslim faith to be THE true faith. …

Say what you want, but you need as much faith to be Catholic as I do to be LDS.

As I recall your passion (at least on CAF) was geographical proof, or lack of proof, for the BoM. Have they agreed to excavate cumora hill?

 

[TexanKnight]

The fact that Jerusalem does exist does mean something. It means we can use reason as much as we can use faith.

As Catholic we don’t see it as either reason or faith…

It’s both.
We know Jerusalem exists. We know that the Jewish temple exists, and still does as a ruin. We know that the anciet Hebrews were a real people, for their decendents are still amongst us. We know that Israel, both as a place and as a people, existed, and still do.

We have BOTH faith **AND ** reason to look to.

How does the saying go? “Reason without faith is paganism. Faith without reason is fanaticism”

You certainly have the free will to live by faith and faith alone.
I am grateful that the Lord has given both the ability to exercise faith and also the intellectual ability to use reason.

We are made in the “image and likeness of God”. We are meant to use our intellect and to reason for we seek Truth. And Truth needs both faith and reason.

Marie, I know you did not mean to hint I do not use reason. I do. Maybe as much or more than you do. Jerusalem only proves a city exists…not that anything is true. Under your theory, since Jerusalem exists, then the Muslim faith must be true. You ignored my point on the flood…and I understand why.

I can list point after point that defies reason, yet Catholics believe…again, I have used intelligence and reason my whole life…attorneys must do that. I am very intelligent. Do not hint I do not use reason.

It takes me as much faith to be LDS and for you to be Catholic. Faith is good

 

[Marie5890]

Ok, the thread is derailing from waxwing’s original intent… LOL…

I would suggest that if people want to take another tangent to explore, to start another thread.

Hopefully Waxwing found the advice she received helpful

 

[Marie5890]

Marie, I know you did not mean to hint I do not use reason. I do. Maybe as much or more than you do. Jerusalem only proves a city exists…not that anything is true. Under your theory, since Jerusalem exists, then the Muslim faith must be true. You ignored my point on the flood…and I understand why.

I can list point after point that defies reason, yet Catholics believe…again, I have used intelligence and reason my whole life…attorneys must do that. I am very intelligent. Do not hint I do not use reason.

It takes me as much faith to be LDS and for you to be Catholic. Faith is good

TK, any advice you wish to give Waxwing in her situation?
Since you have been LDS—Catholic—LDS again, perhaps you have a different prism you wish to share with her.

That is, after all, what this thread is about…

The rest, feel free to start another thread if you wish.

 

[waxwing]

Ok, the thread is derailing from waxwing’s original intent… LOL…

I would suggest that if people want to take another tangent to explore, to start another thread.

Hopefully Waxwing found the advice she received helpful

Hi,

Post 19 sums up my thoughts/response to situation - thanks again to all who contributed…and btw its he

 

[TexanKnight]

TK, any advice you wish to give Waxwing in her situation?
Since you have been LDS—Catholic—LDS again, perhaps you have a different prism you wish to share with her.

That is, after all, what this thread is about…

The rest, feel free to start another thread if you wish.

Funny that you decided to take that stance at that time.

No…not funny. Expected…

I think Wax got all the advice needed…