Affirmative Action: Any thoughts?

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Steve M:
Like Walter Williams says, by using AA standards, there are not enough Chinese players in the NBA.

If someone can prove they’ve been discriminated against, then a remedy should be implemented. If they haven’t been discriminated against, they should sink or swim on their own merit.
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Forget affirmative action, just enforce the laws against discrimination based on race, sex or religion. We don’t need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we have.
 
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Lance:
Forget affirmative action, just enforce the laws against discrimination based on race, sex or religion. We don’t need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we have.
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Agreed. More laws just create more criminals.
 
I’m not in favor of Affirmative Action (in its present form, and I don’t have a solution to this entitlement) because it really is discrimination. America’s guilt from the past has created a bureaucratic system of “checks” and “imbalance”. It has caused a significant increase of reverse discrimination that has affected many well-educated individuals.
 
Before I put out my folowing premise, football is NOT as important as academics. Let that be clear.

OK…

Should Notre Dame, in an effort to win back inner city kids (from going to USC, Florida State, Texas, and Miami), relax their standards of admission *at all?? *
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True, admission standards may be the least of Notre Dame’s worries in resucitating their football program. Location, weather, schedule, number of scholarships available, are all reasons for recruits to look at.

Should Notre Dame look at their players more as athlete-students (like most successful programs) or student-atheletes??

I’m going against the grain of my personal opposition to AA here. Just posing the question.
 
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jlw:
Should Notre Dame, in an effort to win back inner city kids (from going to USC, Florida State, Texas, and Miami), relax their standards of admission *at all?? *
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Do not include Texas in that bunch.(and I’m not a UT fan) UT has much higher academic standards than most other big state schools. Because of state law that sets minimum standards, Texas loses many of the top players to other states. Look at OU’s roster. If you can breathe you can get in there.
 
Steve M:
Do not include Texas in that bunch.(and I’m not a UT fan) UT has much higher academic standards than most other big state schools. Because of state law that sets minimum standards, Texas loses many of the top players to other states. Look at OU’s roster. If you can breathe you can get in there.
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Wouldn’t be so bad if you left the Cotton Bowl every September with a win. But we don’t. 😦 . (Lived in Dallas for many years–a few Red River Shootouts under my belt:) )

You’re right. OU graduation rates are dismal.
 
Lisa N:
I don’t think AA serves any purpose if people who are clearly unable to perform a task or unable to keep up academically are put into the mix by virtue of AA. I posted this on another thread but imagine a basketball team put together not based on talent but based on race or gender or other characteristic? Do you think they could beat the Lakers with a team of short, unathletic white guys and gals?

It’s so funny that in sports, discrimination is just fine, but to use performance or achievement for the workplace or upper level education is just unacceptable. It’s an odd dichtomy where something that really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things (sports) performance is an acceptable criteria, but if your life depends on it, you may get stuck with a low flying duck who got into the door via AA. (Women firefighters for example)

Just an example, I worked in a field that was male dominated and the firm made a concerted effort to hire more women. OTOH they didn’t LOWER their standards, they just looked harder and promoted their firm as being “woman friendly” so to speak. They did well with the male/female ratio but were aghast that there simply were few African Americans in the firm. Here was the reality, very few African Americans majored in the field and thus the pool of potential employees was tiny. So they decided that to get blacks into the firm they didn’t have to graduate in the field. They didn’t have to get good grades. They didn’t have to have all of the outside activities and other indicators of high energy and commitment. The results were disasterous. They brought in people who couldn’t do the work, who struggled along trying to keep up and who were virtually all eventually terminated. Here’s the killer, they all went to work for the FBI or the government…

After seeing this debacle I am really against any kind of “lowering of the bar” to get the right color, gender, size mix. And when I’m on the thirtieth floor of a burning building, I hope it’s a big burly man who comes up the ladder.

Lisa N
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You obviously know nothing about the requirements *all *firefighters must meet in order to serve as firefighters. If you were on the thirtieth floor of a burning building I would think you would be happy to be saved by whomever appears, male or female. After all, one cannot be picky in such situations. You might be very surprised what female firefighters can do: they are expected to perform as well as any “big burly man.” FYI.
 
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Peacemonger:
I voted other…I think “affirmative action” programs should be based strictly on someone’s economic/financial background. A person’s race should have nothing to do with it. I’m sure the present “affirmative action” program has Dr. MLK spinning in his grave.
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I agree totally.
 
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NightRider:
You obviously know nothing about the requirements *all *firefighters must meet in order to serve as firefighters. If you were on the thirtieth floor of a burning building I would think you would be happy to be saved by whomever appears, male or female. After all, one cannot be picky in such situations. You might be very surprised what female firefighters can do: they are expected to perform as well as any “big burly man.” FYI.
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Well you really don’t have any idea what I know or don’t know and you are right if I WERE on the thirtieth floor I would be happy to be saved. OTOH I do know that for certain professions that require physical strength, the standards have been dropped to allow women to participate. This is a case where political correctness is apparently considered more important than actual ability.

My brother in law was a cop for thirty years and he said that women were not held to the same standard for physical strength and endurance. He said this lack of physical strength not only got them into trouble but it also compromised the safety of other officers. I am not saying no woman should be a cop, but I think that for public safety we have to be aware that there ARE physical differences between men and women and in certain areas, a man is going to have an advantage by virtue of strength. You know how the public hates it when cops SHOOT someone and thus the ability to subdue a suspect without firing a weapon is actually essential to performing the job.

I also know from having firefighters in the family that they are required to wear extremely heavy equipment, run up ladders and physically assist if not carry people out of a burning building. Silly me for hoping a strong man is at the end of MY ladder. YMMV.

Lisa N
 
It is an acceptable tool to remedy specific past discrimination.

When it is used as a tool to achieve equality of outcomes, as opposed to equality of opportunity, it becomes legalized discrimination.

The concept of using it to achieve diversity goals is also quite repugnant.
 
Against, for numerous reasons. I’ll limit it for now.
  1. Affirmative Action renders black achievement suspect. For example, on campuses, students may sometimes wonder if black students are there on their merits or because of an affirmative action program.
  2. Affirmative Action perpetuates the myth that race is relevant. Race should be considered as irrelevant as eye color.
  3. Affirmative Action sends minorities, predominantly blacks, the message that they can’t suceed without help solely because of their race–this is demoralizing.
Further things to think about:
  1. I don’t know why so many blacks support affirmative action. And I certainly support their right to agree with affirmative action. But it does puzzle me because most would consider being called an “affirmative action hire” a seering insult.
  2. Homework and tests get tougher as children grow older–to tell a 12th grader that he only had to take a 6th grade level test to graduate would be an insult to his intellect. That is how I see affirmative action–lowering scores necessary to pass, lower admission requirements to college, and lowering qualifications to get a job–telling blacks we won’t demend as much because they are black is treating them like children.
  3. If a college announced that it had absolutely no race based preferences, how do you think blacks would be regarded by other students? How do you think blacks would regard themselves? The answer is quite obvious.
blessings to all
 
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Jay74:
Against, for numerous reasons. I’ll limit it for now.
  1. Affirmative Action renders black achievement suspect. For example, on campuses, students may sometimes wonder if black students are there on their merits or because of an affirmative action program.
  2. Affirmative Action perpetuates the myth that race is relevant. Race should be considered as irrelevant as eye color.
  3. Affirmative Action sends minorities, predominantly blacks, the message that they can’t suceed without help solely because of their race–this is demoralizing.
Further things to think about:
  1. I don’t know why so many blacks support affirmative action. And I certainly support their right to agree with affirmative action. But it does puzzle me because most would consider being called an “affirmative action hire” a seering insult.
  2. Homework and tests get tougher as children grow older–to tell a 12th grader that he only had to take a 6th grade level test to graduate would be an insult to his intellect. That is how I see affirmative action–lowering scores necessary to pass, lower admission requirements to college, and lowering qualifications to get a job–telling blacks we won’t demend as much because they are black is treating them like children.
  3. If a college announced that it had absolutely no race based preferences, how do you think blacks would be regarded by other students? How do you think blacks would regard themselves? The answer is quite obvious.
blessings to all
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Ah, the man who listens to Dennis Prager. :clapping: Well said!
 
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jlw:
Ah, the man who listens to Dennis Prager. :clapping: Well said!
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Absolutely, he’s my favorite. And I got a personal email from him today!!! I asked him a question, and he gave a personal response. It made my day!!.
 
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Jay74:
Absolutely, he’s my favorite. And I got a personal email from him today!!! I asked him a question, and he gave a personal response. It made my day!!.
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What did you ask??
 
WHy are successful blacks often called “Uncle Tom?” I read the book and found Uncle Tom to be inspirational.
 
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Peacemonger:
WHy are successful blacks often called “Uncle Tom?” I read the book and found Uncle Tom to be inspirational.
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I think its used as a distraction. They disagree with someone, but have nothing to use against their character, so they hurl insults.

I agree that Uncle Tom was inspirational, but many blacks tend to view him as the “compliant slave”. A black friend of mine once joked “I’ll just be Uncle Tom and say ‘Yes’ir. No si’r.’”

I guess its like saying “I’m glad to be a slave and serve.” Chris Darden was branded an Uncle Tom for prosecuting OJ–you can’t argue intellectually against someone prosecuting a murder case with so much evidence, so they basically in an insulting phrase accuse him of betraying the black cause and serving “slave owners”.

We’ve actually agreed on something two times in the last 24 hours. 😉
 
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Jay74:
I think its used as a distraction. You disagree with someone, but have nothing to use against their character, so you hurl insults intead of making intellectual arguments.

I agree that Uncle Tom was inspirational, but many blacks tend to view him as the “compliant slave”. A black friend of mine once joked “I’ll just be Uncle Tom and say ‘Yes’ir. No si’r.’”

I guess its like saying “I’m glad to be a slave and serve.” Chris Darden was branded an Uncle Tom for prosecuting OJ–you can’t argue intellectually against someone prosecuting a murder case with so much evidence, so they basically in an insulting phrase accuse him of betraying the black cause and serving “slave owners”.

We’ve actually agreed on something two times in the last 24 hours. 😉
Click to expand...
 
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Peacemonger:
I voted other…I think “affirmative action” programs should be based strictly on someone’s economic/financial background. A person’s race should have nothing to do with it. I’m sure the present “affirmative action” program has Dr. MLK spinning in his grave.
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I completely agree.

Here’s an issue where liberals and conservatives seem to somewhat agree.

Cheers.
 
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