Afflicted by a hate for the feminine

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kfarose2585:
I think the thing that makes me believe in the inferiority of women the most is the fact that Jesus was “born of a woman.” In other words, that’s all she was good for: a vessel for something greater, though otherwise not great herself. Okay, so that’s not entirely true. Mary was a pure woman and an excellent servant of God. But let’s face it, if she didn’t have Jesus, we probably would have never heard of her. Besides, the son of God was not the daughter of God, and God Himself is almost never referred to in the feminine. Even God doesn’t want to be feminine!

Please refute the above statements, but be nice. I shall try to seek out some sort of counseling, though I am still a bit nervous about mentioning these things to a flesh-and-blood person. I’ll also keep attempting prayer. Be sure to include me in your prayers too.
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Dear kfarose,

There is a videotape I bought that changed my skeptical mind about Mary. It is called “Mary, the Mother of God,” by Fr. Thomas Keating. It gives a different perspective of Mary than I’ve heard before, and really shows what a great example she is, of strength of personality and obedience to God.

You can find the tape at: contemplativeoutreach.org/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=COB&Product_Code=V-212&Category_Code=IVTBFTK
It costs 25 bucks, so you might want to check with your diocese office and see if they might have a library with it.

Disclaimer: To all those posters who want to jump in and tell you “stay away from Keating because he’s New Age,” I am hereby warning her myself so you may I ask that instead of hijacking this thread if you want to argue about Keating I’ll tell you where you can go: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=13373

Alan
 
I have kind of speed read through the comments. Two things come to mind.

Find a really good doctor (most people head to an M.D.; you might want to look at a Naturopath, or another discipline in the mdeical field), and get a complete, andI mean complete, physical. It may be that there are some physical, hormonal imbalances which can be treated or modified that will impact you. and Look till you find a physician who will listen to you before they start poking and prodding.

Consider also counseling. That can be a scary area, given some of the goofiness that can go on out there, and I still don’t know whether I am suggesting psychologists or psychiatrists, but professional help may be what you need to sort out not what you feel (you seem to have that well in hand), but why, and is that fixable.

You seem not happy with where you are. you will be in my prayers.
 
Hi kfarose~

I think the above posters have offered some really good ideas and I can only add one little thing: don’t feel that you have to fit a certain feminine mold. Women were not made with a cookie cutter.
 
Dear Friend,
In one of your posts, you said something about how even God hates the feminine. Did I get that right? You said one never hears about the feminine side of God. St. Julian of Norwich, one of the Church Mothers, had a great understanding of the feminine side of God and wrote about it. I think, (maybe others here would know) that there were other Mothers who also wrote about the feminine side of God.
Peace,
Linda
 
Dearest kfarose

I have kept you in my prayers dear friend and just looked in to speak with you again. I read your reply in answer to a few postings and it occurred to me, that perhaps you may have had a particular woman in your life as a child who was harsh with you, or over-bearing in some manner, or a particularly sexist male figure, I’m sorry if I am wrong on this kfarose. I hope you do seek out someone to speak with who is trained in counselling, this could all be unwravelled between you and he/she by talking it through.

As for women kfarose, women are the very fabric of society, they raise the children, teach the morals, hold the home together and in their homes, make the society of tomorrow, they are not worthless baby machines but nurturing of all human life within their very own bodies and they are the teachers of the world. And not only do they do all this, they also go out of the house and work hard in the workforce in all kinds of skilled and unskilled work. Women by their very nature are more compassionate and loving and without judgement are free to show this, (which men should enjoy the same without being thought less of as a man!!)

You kfarose are an intelligent, thinking, sensitive, loving woman who has listened to people telling her she can’t achieve, when you can and have achieved much and it is this very heart of yours that the kingdom of heaven coupled with your faith is intended to be an inheritance to. These teasing hurtful words that have been said to you repeatedly, you have taken into your heart and aimed them into yourself and rather than hurt anyone else and tell them they are wrong, you have taken them into your heart hurt yourself when it IS NOT YOU that is wrong or at fault. You are not those words, you are a fine and wonderful woman.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you always xxx

Teresa
 
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otm:
I have kind of speed read through the comments. Two things come to mind.

Find a really good doctor (most people head to an M.D.; you might want to look at a Naturopath, or another discipline in the mdeical field), and get a complete, andI mean complete, physical. It may be that there are some physical, hormonal imbalances which can be treated or modified that will impact you. and Look till you find a physician who will listen to you before they start poking and prodding.

Consider also counseling. That can be a scary area, given some of the goofiness that can go on out there, and I still don’t know whether I am suggesting psychologists or psychiatrists, but professional help may be what you need to sort out not what you feel (you seem to have that well in hand), but why, and is that fixable.

You seem not happy with where you are. you will be in my prayers.
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Excellent advice. Your pastor may know some Catholics in the counseling field whom he knows other people to have good experiences with.

PS Any of you who knows a really great Catholic counselor might consider passing that information on to your pastor.
 
Good idea blb xx God Bless you and much love and peace to you xx
 
There have been a lot of responses since my last post, so I’m sorry if I miss anybody. Trust me when I say that you have all helped me in some way. Thank you especially for your prayers.

Mercygate: I will look in to Louis de Montfort. I have a rather long book list to tack that on to, but someday I’ll get to it.

Eremos: Excellent points about Mary. I’ll re-watch The Passion through different eyes.

Kage: I never thought of Mary in that light. I suppose Jesus could have come to earth in any other way, yet for some reason he chose a woman. That does say a lot.

Csr: All too true, except that I don’t totally agree with the part about dress. Yes, some modern clothing is immodest (some bikinis, not all; some shirts/skirts/pants, not all). However, I see no problem with women wearing jeans and a t-shirt, which I don’t believe make them look particularly “masculine” or “stylish.” Perhaps I misunderstood you.

BLB: I actually have a “spiritual director” of sorts. He’s not officially one–is there even an official position?–but he is a very close friend who has led me deep into the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, I will be leaving for college soon and will not get to see him again until December.

Greg: Awesome list. Thank you for reminding me of some great women, some of whom are sadly often overlooked.

Toni: I’ll be sure to start that list tomorrow.

Pug: You are absolutely right about society. And I do have endometriosis. Good guess.

Sue: Thanks for the encouragement. Perpetual Adoration is something that I have heard of, but I’ve never quite understood exactly what it was. I think I may check that out.

Alan: I will look in to Keating’s videotape. I don’t care if it’s “New Agey” or not, so long as it helps.

otm: Taking birth control pills everyday significantly alters hormone levels, especially if the pills have the same amount of hormones in them for each day (which mine do). So, I probably do have some strange imbalances. As far as a physical goes, I should be getting one soon. And I am definitely not happy where I am. I am suspecting that my parents don’t love each other, and it’s impacted me significantly.

Blood Rain: Sometimes it seems like people want to fit women in cookie cutters, especially those who are armed with a wacky definition of what constitutes femininity.

Linda: I know that some have contemplated the feminine side of God, so I wasn’t trying to prove that He completely rejects a feminine image. It just seems that we rarely refer to Him as “She.” I will definitely look in to St. Julian of Norwich’s writings. Perhaps she can shed more light on this issue.

Teresa: You are too good to me, and rather good at assessing me too. The overbearing figure in my life was and is my mother, who frequently teased, discouraged, and criticized me as a child, and who continues to do so today. The only chauvinist I know is myself! Perhaps I learned that behavior from some of the other Christian churches that I used to attend (mostly non-denominational).

BLB again: I am moving back to Greenville, where I have never attended church and consequently do not know the pastor. However, this year I am going to try to find a ride to Mass, and will try to seek help from a priest.

To all: Feel free to PM me, email me, etc. Your kindness is VERY appreciated.
 
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eremos:
The Church is feminine. She is the one He dies for and lives for eternally.
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All your points are very valid, however this one can’t be stressed enough. The scriptures tell us the Church is the Bride of Christ, and we often lovingly refer to it as Holy Mother Church.
 
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LindaS:
Dear Friend,
In one of your posts, you said something about how even God hates the feminine. Did I get that right? You said one never hears about the feminine side of God. St. Julian of Norwich, one of the Church Mothers, had a great understanding of the feminine side of God and wrote about it. I think, (maybe others here would know) that there were other Mothers who also wrote about the feminine side of God.
Peace,
Linda
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Exactly, and the Holy Spirit is often mentioned as possessing the “feminine qualities” of God.
 
I cannot improve on what others have said, except I don’t think there is a woman alive, who if she has honest, has not at some point shared your feelings. Have you been able through therapy and spiritual direction to explore the real roots of the anguish and conflict you are experiencing? I would not do this without firm guidance with a trusted counsellor, but are you at the point in your life where you can do this? As you no doubt are aware, the many physical disorders a woman’s body is prone to often have their root in hormonal imbalance, that are very hard to diagnose and treat. Your use of birth control pills may be treating symptoms, not causes. There are also minor chromosonal abnormalities that may cause a whole range of problems, which may seem psychological or spiritual but really have a physical basis. Whatever the cause, and whether you ever find out the cause, it is not your fault, and God loves you as you are. You know we are all praying for you for healing if it is possible, for peace if it is not.
 
I will be talking with my spiritual director on Friday. Conveniently, he is also an MD. I am incredibly nervous, but I know that humbly seeking help is infinitely better than wallowing in curable pain.

I think it is no coincidence that many other women go through a similar phase in their lives. Although men also can experience troubles with their masculinity, I believe that women historically have been more troubled by their femininity. Why? Because women of the past were taught that they were unclean, inferior, and incapable of leadership or intelligence. Today, the message is that none of those is true, but we still haven’t caught up yet. There are slinky models plastered on billboards and magazine covers that scream, “Women!, you are sex objects!” Some girls actually buy into the popular idea that it is fashionable to be a “brat” or a “princess,” and it is to the point that we are still sometimes stereotyped as hormonal super-shoppers who are overly concerned with appearances. While some of us are, many are not, yet this is the image of femininity we receive: whiny, snotty, oversexed “superstar” models. There are other stereotpyes: the “soccer mom,” the “business executive,” etc., but these guys are somehow less feminine than the passive, I-have-an-attitude-problem girls who base their lives on what others think of them. I can’t stand it.

Yet this is the accepted image: the men lead; the women follow, starving for their attention. I started a thread a few weeks ago on the lack of Catholic women’s groups, and I only got a few responses. Most people seem not to know or care about the fact that Daughters of Isabella has only 70,000 women across the world as members, while Knights of Columbus claims millions. I don’t believe this is the result of coincidence, or lack of demand. It’s because so few people have ever heard of the Daughters of Isabella! Their brother group, which happens to be the K of C, does little to promote them (the K of C webmaster, whom I emailed, said he never even heard of them), and women are being told that they should be good little girls and support their husbands/fathers/brothers in confraternities while they go join a sewing group. Aren’t we a little beyond this?

I’m sorry about the soapbox. I just don’t understand why people, even and especially Christian people, so contently sit back and warp and oppress the feminine. We were not meant to be passive man-pleasers; helpers, yes, but not totally dependent or sexual in nature. The same, of course, applies to men.

I keep being drawn back to womenpriests.org. I’ll emphasize that I don’t believe that women should be priests. However, I don’t know how to argue a lot of the stuff I find on the site. I realize that this is from the Code of Canon Law in 1917, but isn’t Canon supposed to be infallible, straight from the Holy Spirit herself? If so, then it seems that the Holy Spirit has a problem with women too!: womenpriests.org/traditio/cod_1917.htm
 
CONTINUED:

I would really love if someone could prove me wrong about all of this. Perhaps all I really need is a change in perception. I actually am not sure how to define what it means to be “feminine;” I just know what it isn’t, and I’m tired of the copycats being the norm. They have affected my own self-image enough.

I am currently reading The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning, which is a wonderful book that is helping me to better understand God’s love. Yet, it is written by a man, just as most spiritual works are (excepting the Teresas and the occasional other women). In addition, Rich Mullins (an awesome Christian musician, who introduced the book), started the Kid Brothers of St. Francis without a thought for the Kid Sisters. Why is this? I have absolultely no problems whatsoever with Manning or Mullins. I’m just noting a trend: the declining image of the feminine, women’s complacency with being under men’s power and whim, men’s complacency with women being subdued and objectified, men’s predominant exclusivity in religious organizations. Why why why?

If anyone could answer any of my questions, I’d appreciate it very much. If not, please keep praying for me. I’m slowly growing to accept myself, even if I do have a long way to go. The peace of God be with you all–especially those of you who are as stubborn and reluctant to accept that peace as me.
 
Dearest Kfarose

I hope all goes well with your Spiritual Director. My heart is with you and I will be thinking of you and praying for you. I think that some of these feelings in society that women feel is because so often women for their graces and assets are exploited rather than respected and loved. I have in the past noticed men speak to my chest!!! (you know what I mean…and not to me as a person!!) This IS devaluing for women. I always want to scream…‘Don’t see me that way…I am a person relate to me as such!!’ If there is a man in the room he will automatically be listened to and not the woman. I had an amusing experience when I was working before I had my daughter and a client came to my office and I had a male assistant, they addressed him and spoke to him and he had to say,‘this is the person you need to speak to’ pointing at me. This IS the way of the world at present and in the past it has been more so. But Kfarose this doesn’t mean God sees you this way, He created you as a female AS important as a male, loved equally and precious to Him. Yes God made the differences in the sexes and yes bestows specific graces upon them relating to their gender. I used to feel that women were given a hard time, my own uncle couldn’t understand why I wanted to study as I ‘would only get married’ !! But dear friend people can only give you a hard time if you let them. I years ago held in my heart that my soul is the Lord’s and as such is as precious as anyone else’s regardless of gender and however people in this world treat each other it doesn’t alter that fundamental fact.

As for male dominated circles, some traditions are hard to break, but I strongly believe women should not be Priests, they can never be a son of God, they are a daughter of God, Jesus is/was a son of God and as such it requires a son of God to become Him to make Him in His Real Presence upon the altar, the Priest is another Christ at this point and during the whole of the Mass, I don’t think a female as the qualities of gender specific to be a Son of God.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you always xxxxx
 
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kfarose2585:
I think it is no coincidence that many other women go through a similar phase in their lives. Although men also can experience troubles with their masculinity, I believe that women historically have been more troubled by their femininity. Why? Because women of the past were taught that they were unclean, inferior, and incapable of leadership or intelligence. Today, the message is that none of those is true, but we still haven’t caught up yet. There are slinky models plastered on billboards and magazine covers that scream, “Women!, you are sex objects!” Some girls actually buy into the popular idea that it is fashionable to be a “brat” or a “princess,” and it is to the point that we are still sometimes stereotyped as hormonal super-shoppers who are overly concerned with appearances.
. I just don’t understand why people, even and especially Christian people, so contently sit back and warp and oppress the feminine. We were not meant to be passive man-pleasers; helpers, yes, but not totally dependent or sexual in nature. The same, of course, applies to men.
I keep being drawn back to womenpriests.org. I’ll emphasize that I don’t believe that women should be priests. However, I don’t know how to argue a lot of the stuff I find on the site. I realize that this is from the Code of Canon Law in 1917, but isn’t Canon supposed to be infallible, straight from the Holy Spirit herself? If so, then it seems that the Holy Spirit has a problem with women too!: womenpriests.org/traditio/cod_1917.htm
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kfarose,
Where to begin? As a male, I haven’t experienced any of the loathing of my sex as you and other women on this thread have expressed.
I can say, from my perspective, radical gender feminism, the exact oppoisite of what you’ve expressed above, is the most unattractive and unflattering attitude a woman can possess. It’s women trying to be men, which is just as repulsive as men trying to be women.
Many above have discussed the complimentary roles of men and women designed byGod. That society tries to put unrealistic expectations on women should be irrelevant. I disregard the expectations society puts on men and women.
I have never wanted to be anything other than what I am, or disliked what I am, but I have always admired and respected the role women play in bringing a new life into the world in union with God! What a privilege, what an honor!
Mary is God’s most perfect creature. Talk about an Honor! And yet, look what she had to endure. How can anyone who understands that not hold her in complete awe. I know I do.
I don’t advertise this, but for this thread: Hate your body? I have Multiple Sclerosis; have for 25 years. It’s a slow decline of physical capability through the nervous system. I can no longer stand unaided nor take a step unless I’m hanging onto something…
And I thank God every day. He’s allowed this inconvenience to me and I can offer any struggles I experience to Him for others.
I’m active. I give pro-life talks, I teach in my parish.
Why don’t you start a Kid Sisters of St. Francis, or St. Clare or another organization for girls that gets you to focus outside of yourself and onto others who need you.
And you are needed. We all are. God made you for something. Maybe it’s to help girls who buy into society’s image of them. Find out what it is and go for it.
God bless
Strider
That link you have above is based on the old Canon Law to intentionally make the Church seem chauvinistic. Don’t buy it.
I hope I didn’t come across as harsh. It wasn’t my intent.
 
God never errors you are lovable just the way you are. I do not know how women can take the image that the media gives them and live by it ether. It is about time women rebel against this media and stand up for what they real are. What the media show you, a women is, is** hog wash**. **I would not accept it ether.
**
Dreses do not define femininity, nor do any other clothing the media would like us to believe does difine the feminine. A women in slacks are as attractive as any that are in dresses.

Do not lose heart a real man will like you just the way you are.
 
Teresa: I know what you mean about men talking to your chest! I have had similar experiences, often with men several decades older than me. Talk about feeling exploited and uncomfortable! Anyway, I don’t know why I let people give me a hard time. I think it is because I assume that popular opinions must have some validity to them in order to become so widespread. I know, I should know better.

T.A.: I have actually read all of those, though I do thank you for the links. They are sometimes helpful to me when I find myself feeling particularly lousy.

Strider: Thank you for sharing your story with me. I enjoy working in hospitals because I always find people who are “worse off” than me physically, but who surprisingly tend to be less critical of themselves. As far as what I need to do to help myself, you hit the bullseye. I believe there is a Yes song that expresses the same concept: “Don’t surround yourself with yourself; move on back two squares.” I think it would help me, and more importantly, help many other people if I started some sort of group for women/girls. It makes so much sense to use my malcontent as the fuel to start something loving and positive that will serve others, rather than using it as the fuel to start a self-destructive fire within myself.

Beaver: Your comments were very kind. I appreciate your understanding.

To all: I’ve noticed a pattern common to most of the recent posts. It seems that everyone knows that there is a difference between femininity and masculinity, but no one has said what that is. Perhaps if I knew what femininity truly was, then I would be more likely to accept it. Teresa, you are right: a woman cannot represent a Son of God because she is a Daughter of God–but what does a Daughter of God do? Someone once told me that men can do anything but have babies, and that women can do anything so long as they remain subservient to men (in other words, there is a rather uneven divide in duties). This sounds like a warping of Paul’s words and intentions, but I can’t argue it because there are so many biblical passages that can be made to say such a thing. Please help!
 
I am new to the forums, and read this thread twice because something in your title called to me. Have you noticed something about this discussion that is I think more characteristic of women than of men, it is a real discussion. Women are sharing their feelings (altho a couple of the men contributors have done a good job) and being honest about them, without trying to “top” your story. Suggestions are offered, but without too much of the “just listen to me and I will fix what is wrong with you” attitude. Also kafrose (sp.) the original poster took time to really read and consider what others offered, and to comment, thank, and discuss.

On poster guesses that every women has had feelings like this at one time or another. When we say we hate the feminine, do we really know what feminine means? Whose definition of feminine are we using to construct this hatred? Is it really self-loathing, or rejection of a false idea of femininity that has been foisted on us by the media, radical political feminism, the fashion industry, the Hugh Grant model of modern masculinity, or any or all of these?
 
Annie, be careful about generalizations. Two of my best friends are male, and they are the best listeners I’ve ever met. One of my female friends is a “story topper,” and I often have to stop myself (sometimes unsuccessfully) from trying to fix others’ problems when they just want someone to listen. But does that make us less feminine/more masculine than my male friends, who are good listeners? I hope not. You are right about people sharing openly in this conversation, though. I’m actually pretty surprised by it, in the best way possible of course. 🙂
 
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