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Strider
Guest
- Status
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aj10
Guest
Our entire culture hates the feminine. Fathers want their daughters to join the Boy Scouts (obviously superior to the Girl Scouts), teen girls either dress like prostitutes (pro-masculine) or like boys (I am masculine). If women are “liberated” they are told to take on what I would call masculine qualities in dress, activities and interests. Most women today have no idea what it means to be a real woman and to love being a woman, which means to love yourself since you are a woman.
Years ago in San Francisco I had to go to the bathroom, and slipped into a bar. It was a gay bar with men dressed as women serving horsdoeuvres on little platters. These men, in flowing pink ruffled dresses, tip-toeing around with mincing steps, subserviantly holding out these trays were insulting caricatures of real womanhood. Yet this is what many women think being a woman is!! No wonder they want no part of being a woman. Instead, they become little caricatures of men because they erroneously believe being masculine is far superior to being feminine. It breaks my heart to see it.
So, you live in a culture that doesn’t like women. Is it any surprise that you find the idea of being a woman revolting? Yet that is who you are, who God created you to be. He has a plan for you, as a woman.
Years ago in San Francisco I had to go to the bathroom, and slipped into a bar. It was a gay bar with men dressed as women serving horsdoeuvres on little platters. These men, in flowing pink ruffled dresses, tip-toeing around with mincing steps, subserviantly holding out these trays were insulting caricatures of real womanhood. Yet this is what many women think being a woman is!! No wonder they want no part of being a woman. Instead, they become little caricatures of men because they erroneously believe being masculine is far superior to being feminine. It breaks my heart to see it.
So, you live in a culture that doesn’t like women. Is it any surprise that you find the idea of being a woman revolting? Yet that is who you are, who God created you to be. He has a plan for you, as a woman.
C
Chris_Jacobsen
Guest
Everybody wants to be important and to be the boss. But we also have to get along in the world. Therefore, we have to make other people feel important. We also have to let other people be the boss and do what they want us to do.
You prefer to associate with men, rather than women. A woman once told me she prefers to associate with men because men discuss ideas and women discuss people.
You should avoid jobs, such as in offices, where most of the people are women.
And find a job, where you are working with men, perhaps a small organization where all of the other employees are men.
You said that you look feminine and are so feminine that you try to resist being feminine. Stop resisting being feminine. Men enjoy working with and being with feminine women.
And you said that you don’t want to have babies. You are lucky. You know for certain that your vocation is being single.
And you should go to a physician.
You prefer to associate with men, rather than women. A woman once told me she prefers to associate with men because men discuss ideas and women discuss people.
You should avoid jobs, such as in offices, where most of the people are women.
And find a job, where you are working with men, perhaps a small organization where all of the other employees are men.
You said that you look feminine and are so feminine that you try to resist being feminine. Stop resisting being feminine. Men enjoy working with and being with feminine women.
And you said that you don’t want to have babies. You are lucky. You know for certain that your vocation is being single.
And you should go to a physician.
K
kfarose2585
Guest
Strider, I could learn something from you. Perhaps I am too analytical of everything, especially myself. I hope that my husband speaks as fondly of me someday as you speak of your wife.
AJ, you are right on, but you carefully avoided my question. You say that women are encouraged to take up the dress, activities, and interests of men. What does that mean? If I dress in jeans and a t-shirt, go fishing, and am intensely interested in science, does that make me masculine? I sure hope not! I prefer pants to skirts because they are warmer, more comfortable, and easier to move in. In some cases, they even look much better/more modest on me. There is no practical reason for a man to wear a dress or skirt (as in your story), hence the reason why I find that so hideous. Women wear them because they look good in them, in some cases they are beautifully modest, and the non-outdoorsy type tend to argue for their comfort as well. I love to go fishing, not because of any man, but because I find it a relaxing and (if done humanely) decent hobby. And I truly am passionate about science, and always have been.
As a side, I have always wanted to be a Boy Scout. My rather large parish only sponsors Boy Scouts, and only offers Boy Scout troops, so I felt a bit left out. When I found a Girl Scout troop, all they did was arts and crafts. Here I was expecting camping, plant/animal identification, knot-tying, fellowship, and leadership, and I got a bunch of docile girls carefully making Christmas ornaments. I was never an artist, and longed even more to be a boy just to enjoy the things that I had been programmed to enjoy. Although I heard that the Girl Scouts now have an equivalent to the Eagle Scout, I can’t even remember what it’s called because it has such second-class status when compared to the Eagle Scout. Such a shame.
So I return to my questions: what does it mean to be feminine? How does this compare to masculinity? Surely there are neutral things too, so where is the line drawn? What sort of things does God call women to do that He doesn’t call men to do, and vice versa? I wonder if there is truly one right answer to these questions, or if the beauty lies in the diversity…
AJ, you are right on, but you carefully avoided my question. You say that women are encouraged to take up the dress, activities, and interests of men. What does that mean? If I dress in jeans and a t-shirt, go fishing, and am intensely interested in science, does that make me masculine? I sure hope not! I prefer pants to skirts because they are warmer, more comfortable, and easier to move in. In some cases, they even look much better/more modest on me. There is no practical reason for a man to wear a dress or skirt (as in your story), hence the reason why I find that so hideous. Women wear them because they look good in them, in some cases they are beautifully modest, and the non-outdoorsy type tend to argue for their comfort as well. I love to go fishing, not because of any man, but because I find it a relaxing and (if done humanely) decent hobby. And I truly am passionate about science, and always have been.
As a side, I have always wanted to be a Boy Scout. My rather large parish only sponsors Boy Scouts, and only offers Boy Scout troops, so I felt a bit left out. When I found a Girl Scout troop, all they did was arts and crafts. Here I was expecting camping, plant/animal identification, knot-tying, fellowship, and leadership, and I got a bunch of docile girls carefully making Christmas ornaments. I was never an artist, and longed even more to be a boy just to enjoy the things that I had been programmed to enjoy. Although I heard that the Girl Scouts now have an equivalent to the Eagle Scout, I can’t even remember what it’s called because it has such second-class status when compared to the Eagle Scout. Such a shame.
So I return to my questions: what does it mean to be feminine? How does this compare to masculinity? Surely there are neutral things too, so where is the line drawn? What sort of things does God call women to do that He doesn’t call men to do, and vice versa? I wonder if there is truly one right answer to these questions, or if the beauty lies in the diversity…
K
kfarose2585
Guest
Chris, I almost missed you! Your message was concise and to the point. Sometimes I wish I could be more like that. =)
Unfortunately, I want to be a physician, so I’ll probably be surrounded by a lot of women–and men. I just have to learn to accept them, and not to stereotype them too much. Not all women are gossips; not all men are idea-sharers.
And I don’t want to be single. I want to marry, and somewhere deep down, I want to have children. I’m just terrified to death of them. But, just as I ride roller coasters to help overcome my fear of heights, someday I believe I should have children–not just to overcome the consuming fear, but to do what I know I am supposed to do.
I’ll try to stop resisting being myself (or, as you said, “being feminine”–though I still don’t exactly know what that means). I shall also see a doc this Friday. Thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately, I want to be a physician, so I’ll probably be surrounded by a lot of women–and men. I just have to learn to accept them, and not to stereotype them too much. Not all women are gossips; not all men are idea-sharers.
And I don’t want to be single. I want to marry, and somewhere deep down, I want to have children. I’m just terrified to death of them. But, just as I ride roller coasters to help overcome my fear of heights, someday I believe I should have children–not just to overcome the consuming fear, but to do what I know I am supposed to do.
I’ll try to stop resisting being myself (or, as you said, “being feminine”–though I still don’t exactly know what that means). I shall also see a doc this Friday. Thanks for the advice.
T
Teresa9
Guest
Dearest Kfarose
Now I think you truly believe that God cannot love you because someone somewhere along the line has made you feel unloveable. Now you know that this is not true or else we would all feel that God did not love us, we have at some time or other encountered this and even so, know God loves us
cont
Now I think you truly believe that God cannot love you because someone somewhere along the line has made you feel unloveable. Now you know that this is not true or else we would all feel that God did not love us, we have at some time or other encountered this and even so, know God loves us
cont
T
Teresa9
Guest
sorry I keep crashing so will pst short replies …
but now we must believe God loves us kfarose, bacuse if we lose sight of this we lose sight of Christ on the Cross dying for all humanity, he didn’t die for one or ten or 100 or 1000 people he died for all humanity because God loves all humanity.
So what is it to be male…whatever you make of it
So what is it to be female…whatever you make of it
You are born male with specific graces and benefits, make use of them to the most, do what you can with what you have
You are born female with specific graces and benefits, make use of them and do the most, do what you can with what you have cont…
but now we must believe God loves us kfarose, bacuse if we lose sight of this we lose sight of Christ on the Cross dying for all humanity, he didn’t die for one or ten or 100 or 1000 people he died for all humanity because God loves all humanity.
So what is it to be male…whatever you make of it
So what is it to be female…whatever you make of it
You are born male with specific graces and benefits, make use of them to the most, do what you can with what you have
You are born female with specific graces and benefits, make use of them and do the most, do what you can with what you have cont…
T
Teresa9
Guest
Some men make good mum’s some woemn make great mechanics or astronauts, Dearest Kfarose, you are a woman and within that is endless scope for your talents , heart and spirit, if it serves God with Him at the foremost you can be sure you have fulfilled your feminity. You know by doing what you did with the pills was wrong or you would not have mentioned it, now don’t dwell to the past, but look to the present and to the future, because Christ not only heals the past but the present and the future.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you xx
Teresa xxxxxx (you are in my prayers and my heart xxx)
God Bless you and much love and peace to you xx
Teresa xxxxxx (you are in my prayers and my heart xxx)
P
puzzleannie
Guest
may be we are starting from the wrong end of the question. Instead of what does it mean to be feminine maybe we should be asking, what does it mean to be Annie? What does it mean to be Kafrose, what does it mean to be Teresa? What does it mean to be Chris? and so forth.
P
PKK
Guest
Dear kfarose2585, I am amazed to hear your fealings. I believe that you are a very intelligent woman. The reason I say this is you have a lot of the same feelings as my daughter, for a moment I wondered if it was her, and she is a very intellegent woman. I believe you to be about the same age, she just turned 20 in July, and has just gone off to college herself. I read an interesting book when she was young that helped me to understand some things. First is that intellegent young women have a real good understanding of what society is trying to push off as femine. Which is not really femine but sexual objects. You rebel at that because of your intellegence, because you know better. Second what is feminity? Who can really say. I believe that it is just a woman trying to do the tasks that God has given her, whatever that maybe (a doctor, a mother). What is masculine. The same thing. I think this culture has gotten us so mixed up with trying to make everything neutral. The reason I say this is because I also have 3 boys. I see what society is trying to tell them. They are no longer supposed to be the responsible ones, they don’t need to be strong, or be protectors, or considerate. They are just dumb stupid men. Look at most of the sitcoms today. (I don’t watch tv myself because I don’t like what is on, but I see enough to know) The men are portraited(?sp) as stupid bumbling idiots, and the women are nothing but sex objects. I believe the roll of women is not to be subservient of men, but to be supportive if need be, to be strong when needed, and to help guide when needed. I look at the relationship of a family to be a little like the relationship of a church. The Pope is the head of the church, with bishops and priest to help with the work., That doesn’t really make them less important, there is just to much to be done for one man. The bishops and the priest have more contact with the general people, they can help council the Pope on things that are happening in the world with the general public. When issues arise and choices have to be made, they gather and debate (if you would) what needs to be done. If they can not all agree on (especially when it come to doctrine of the church) the issues, then it is left to the Pope to make the final decision. The family is much the same way. Some one has to make the decision in a difficult situation this was intended to be the husband (not that we are subservient to him, he is expected to listen to our council, that doesn’t mean that we will always have our way). We as male and female are meant to compliment each other in our strength and weakness (we all have both). This is getting a little long so I will end with instead fighting against being femine and of trying to find out what being femine is, find out who you are, and what God wants you to do. Then I believe that you will find out what femine for you is. You are in my prayers, may God bless you on this journey of yours.
K
kfarose2585
Guest
Teresa, you are like a big sister to me. Thank you for always being so supportive.
Annie, PKK, and everyone else: I think that my problem is that I have always felt “called” to do things that are traditionally more “masculine.” I want to be a physician, which means that I will have a degree of “authority” over my patients–men included. Apparently that is wrong, non-feminine, and even offensive to God. For many years I felt called to the priesthood, then to spiritual leadership in general when I discovered why the priesthood is limited to men. But again, spiritual leadership seems to be something unavailable to me because I happen to have the wrong sexual organs. I don’t understand the justification for this. Here I am, trying to be Kfarose (which incidentally stands for “Kiss from a Rose,” my favorite song), and everyone says, “stop trying to be what you cannot; just be yourself.” Yet I am trying to be myself! The problem is that I don’t always fit properly in the feminine mold, and many people are quick to shoot me down for it. Priests, doctors, and other leaders are not leaders in their own right–they work for the interests of the people, in total submission to the needs of others. Aren’t women supposed to be just as submissive as men? Therefore, shouldn’t they be able to be those who are most submissive, the leaders of the flock? And I don’t mean that they should be priests or father figures, but mother figures, protecting and nourishing their spiritual children.
Another thing: are women really never, under any circumstances, supposed to teach or supervise men? Are they really supposed to keep silence in the church, even in those cases in which the church leaders are not doing their job and women’s interests are being ignored? To me, this sounds like forcing people into second-class citizenship. It is no wonder that men rarely envy women, yet women tend to wish, at least at some point in their lives, for the privileges of men. There is nothing men can’t do, but we women are always being limited.
My mother is the head of my childhood household, the breadwinner, the decision maker, and the spiritual leader. My father is a stay-at-home dad who cooks, cleans, and has raised my sister and me wonderfully. This arrangement has worked perfectly for us, yet we are always rebuked for tampering with “natural, Christian order.” It makes no sense to me. If the shoe fits, doesn’t hurt anyone, and everyone is happy with it…why not wear it? Does anyone really think that Paul meant to break a family that is using the inborn strengths of its members by rigidly enforcing an idea that made sense for many people of his time, but not in every case now? Women are more educated these days, and the laws of the land allow them to learn, teach, and speak without fear of punishment–which often used to include rape, torture, death, and general shame. Paul, who mentions women teaching the Word alongside him (Junia, Prisca), was trying to protect women who taught and led during a time in which the world was hostile to them. Why continue something like this if society is no longer this way? It is similar to constantly reinforcing America’s hideous past of chattel slavery by reviving the Underground Railroad to protect blacks. They no longer need this protection, because the U.S. does not subject them to the slave trade anymore.
Annie, PKK, and everyone else: I think that my problem is that I have always felt “called” to do things that are traditionally more “masculine.” I want to be a physician, which means that I will have a degree of “authority” over my patients–men included. Apparently that is wrong, non-feminine, and even offensive to God. For many years I felt called to the priesthood, then to spiritual leadership in general when I discovered why the priesthood is limited to men. But again, spiritual leadership seems to be something unavailable to me because I happen to have the wrong sexual organs. I don’t understand the justification for this. Here I am, trying to be Kfarose (which incidentally stands for “Kiss from a Rose,” my favorite song), and everyone says, “stop trying to be what you cannot; just be yourself.” Yet I am trying to be myself! The problem is that I don’t always fit properly in the feminine mold, and many people are quick to shoot me down for it. Priests, doctors, and other leaders are not leaders in their own right–they work for the interests of the people, in total submission to the needs of others. Aren’t women supposed to be just as submissive as men? Therefore, shouldn’t they be able to be those who are most submissive, the leaders of the flock? And I don’t mean that they should be priests or father figures, but mother figures, protecting and nourishing their spiritual children.
Another thing: are women really never, under any circumstances, supposed to teach or supervise men? Are they really supposed to keep silence in the church, even in those cases in which the church leaders are not doing their job and women’s interests are being ignored? To me, this sounds like forcing people into second-class citizenship. It is no wonder that men rarely envy women, yet women tend to wish, at least at some point in their lives, for the privileges of men. There is nothing men can’t do, but we women are always being limited.
My mother is the head of my childhood household, the breadwinner, the decision maker, and the spiritual leader. My father is a stay-at-home dad who cooks, cleans, and has raised my sister and me wonderfully. This arrangement has worked perfectly for us, yet we are always rebuked for tampering with “natural, Christian order.” It makes no sense to me. If the shoe fits, doesn’t hurt anyone, and everyone is happy with it…why not wear it? Does anyone really think that Paul meant to break a family that is using the inborn strengths of its members by rigidly enforcing an idea that made sense for many people of his time, but not in every case now? Women are more educated these days, and the laws of the land allow them to learn, teach, and speak without fear of punishment–which often used to include rape, torture, death, and general shame. Paul, who mentions women teaching the Word alongside him (Junia, Prisca), was trying to protect women who taught and led during a time in which the world was hostile to them. Why continue something like this if society is no longer this way? It is similar to constantly reinforcing America’s hideous past of chattel slavery by reviving the Underground Railroad to protect blacks. They no longer need this protection, because the U.S. does not subject them to the slave trade anymore.
K
kfarose2585
Guest
Continued:
I’m sorry that my posts are always so long and rambly. I think that I think about things too much, and I know that I don’t have enough faith. Sometimes the ways of the Christian world just don’t make sense to me. Perhaps this is because I am incredibly off-center in my perceptions–or maybe because I am incredibly on-target (or something in between). I just know that I’m having trouble tuning out those who ridicule me for being different, mostly because they are so numerous. I cannot be at peace until I know that I am doing God’s will, and that my natural desires, strengths, talents and actions are not offensive to Him, at least as far as my femininity is concerned. Until then, it is an uphill battle.
I’m sorry that my posts are always so long and rambly. I think that I think about things too much, and I know that I don’t have enough faith. Sometimes the ways of the Christian world just don’t make sense to me. Perhaps this is because I am incredibly off-center in my perceptions–or maybe because I am incredibly on-target (or something in between). I just know that I’m having trouble tuning out those who ridicule me for being different, mostly because they are so numerous. I cannot be at peace until I know that I am doing God’s will, and that my natural desires, strengths, talents and actions are not offensive to Him, at least as far as my femininity is concerned. Until then, it is an uphill battle.
C
csr
Guest
Casual men’s wear was introduced for women as a counter-cultural ploy to erase the distinction between the masculine and the feminine. The revolution in dress has larger and continuing consequences. Even when cut differently trousers continue this process of encouraging efficiency and masculinity for women. While some trousers are more modest than some skirts, a Catholic awareness of the issues involved contributes to the conclusion that an important way for a woman to be an example to society is to dress modestly in clothes that are inherently feminine.
D
Della
Guest
Sometimes in a normal female embryo, somewhere between the 8th and 24th week, even though the ‘XX’ chromosomes have ordered no hormonal washes to take place, testosterone is still introduced. For example: an errant fetal adrenal gland causes testosterone to be produced in great quantities. The fetus is washed in testosterone, against chromosomal orders. The fetal body remains female. However, the errant wash may affect the female fetal brain towards male tendencies. This explains why some biological females know from the age of 3 years that they have some of the tendencies of members of the opposite sex.
This is more common than most people realize. It does not mean that the female has become a male, but it may make her less oriented towards traditional female interests and modes of thinking. This may be what happened in your case. Along with the influences of your mother, you may have come to feel that the feminine is less good than the masculine. Knowing that there is a physical connection to your feelings may help you deal with them better. It put a lot of things into perspective for me, at least.
Also, there is hope for your endometriosis. A new therapy is available for women that treats this condition with precise surgery and hormonal treatment. Go to catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1196 to learn more about it.
This is more common than most people realize. It does not mean that the female has become a male, but it may make her less oriented towards traditional female interests and modes of thinking. This may be what happened in your case. Along with the influences of your mother, you may have come to feel that the feminine is less good than the masculine. Knowing that there is a physical connection to your feelings may help you deal with them better. It put a lot of things into perspective for me, at least.
Also, there is hope for your endometriosis. A new therapy is available for women that treats this condition with precise surgery and hormonal treatment. Go to catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1196 to learn more about it.
B
Brad
Guest
I am a man. My greatest role model is a woman - Mary - she followed God perfectly. No other man (non-divine) has done as well.
Women are absolutely indispensable. In general, they care and nurture better than men. They listen better than men. They have more patience than men. They are more creative than men. They have better intution than men. Often, they have more intelligence than men.
It is women that shape society by being the most influenctial person to little children.
When God created woman as a “helper”, it wasn’t a helper in the way that we think of today. He created a person with completely equal dignity as a complementary person to man. Different in many ways but receiving the same amount of love, dignity, and respect.
The dignity and worth of a woman is overwhelming. Only a woman can bear a human person - a soul that will live eternally with God. And even if a woman does not physically bear children, she still maintains her nurturing skills by which she impacts other eternal souls in a positive way - often many more souls, depending on her vocation.
I thank God every day for my wife, my daughters, and my mother. I have a sense of awe regarding what God has created.
Don’t let what society tells us about men and women depress you. This message is full of lies. The Truth is that each and every one of us was made in the image and likeness of Almighty God Himself and both men and women have unique roles which fufill them and give them great joy when united with God’s plan for them.
Keep up the prayer and the Scripture study, praise God every day for making you just the way you are, live your faith and love yourself and those around you with a self-sacrifical love and you just may find some joy at the end of that tunnel.
Women are absolutely indispensable. In general, they care and nurture better than men. They listen better than men. They have more patience than men. They are more creative than men. They have better intution than men. Often, they have more intelligence than men.
It is women that shape society by being the most influenctial person to little children.
When God created woman as a “helper”, it wasn’t a helper in the way that we think of today. He created a person with completely equal dignity as a complementary person to man. Different in many ways but receiving the same amount of love, dignity, and respect.
The dignity and worth of a woman is overwhelming. Only a woman can bear a human person - a soul that will live eternally with God. And even if a woman does not physically bear children, she still maintains her nurturing skills by which she impacts other eternal souls in a positive way - often many more souls, depending on her vocation.
I thank God every day for my wife, my daughters, and my mother. I have a sense of awe regarding what God has created.
Don’t let what society tells us about men and women depress you. This message is full of lies. The Truth is that each and every one of us was made in the image and likeness of Almighty God Himself and both men and women have unique roles which fufill them and give them great joy when united with God’s plan for them.
Keep up the prayer and the Scripture study, praise God every day for making you just the way you are, live your faith and love yourself and those around you with a self-sacrifical love and you just may find some joy at the end of that tunnel.
K
kfarose2585
Guest
I am beginning to think that I am focusing on the wrong things. Many of my questions cannot be answered by anyone to my satisfaction. People still have ideas about femininity and masculinity without being able to articulate exactly what each means. Yet, they still say that women should not be masculine and men should not be feminine–without defining precise parameters and guidelines for either. I am left to conclude that “feminine” means “what most women think, say, and do” and that “masculine” means “what most men think, say, and do.” If this is the case, then it is acceptable, even good, that some women have some typically “male” traits, and vice versa. Just look at Jesus. He was a man, but he possessed the positive qualities of both the masculine and the feminine. And no one is criticizing him for being too girly.
I will always think that forcing women to wear dresses and skirts is ridiculous, mostly because this is a primarily Western idea–in other words, it is not embraced by the universal Church. Men of some cultures wear things that would resemble “feminine” attire in the United States, i.e. kilts, togas, etc. But should we condemn them for this? No. Modesty is what is key, not pushing cultural concepts of dress on all people. Even if women wearing “masculine” clothing has less-than-desirable origins, I think that focusing on that is like concentrating on the unfortunate origins of America. European “Christians” were ruthless in their slaughter of the Indians, completely disregarding the dignity of those poor people. Yet to protest and say, “America should not be recognized as a country because it was founded on false Christianity” would be a rash statement. Don’t dismiss America because of its past. On the same token, don’t dismiss changes in dress because they were originally meant to “masculize” women. There is no “inherent” femininity in a piece of cloth–the femininity we associate with it comes from our culture. It does not come from God, the Bible, the Church, or anything related to those. As I said, as long as one’s clothing is truly modest, then it is acceptable. Or at least, it is to me.
Perhaps I do have a bit too much testosterone. If that is true, then I–and everyone else–will just have to accept it. This is the way God made me. I suppose there is no sense in speculating about my “masculine” tendencies any longer, because I keep finding myself thirsting more for answers and feeling wounded by those who don’t agree with me. I am what I am, and there is a reason I am this way. What that reason is is beyond me, beyond you, and beyond all other people. I need to figure this out for myself, in prayer. For now, my thoughts and yours are taking up too much space in my brain, leaving little room for God’s thoughts. This is so backward, and it has taken me much too long to realize that.
If I sound upset, it’s because I am. But don’t worry; it’s a good, healthy sort of upsetness. I am realizing that I rely on people too much, and that I don’t trust God enough. If I am not a traditionally feminine person, it’s because God molded me to be this way! And if Scripture contradicts that, then it must mean that I am reading the Bible incorrectly. Perhaps God’s plan is to gradually develop the more “feminine” qualities in me, or maybe I am just supposed to accept myself as I am. Either way, I don’t think that I’ll be hellbound for breaking a few rules–so long as I am genuinely sorry for being the sinner I am, even if I don’t know or understand all of my sins.
Feel free to continue posting your opinions, encouragements, interpretations, etc. Just know that from this point forth, your words take a backseat to God’s.
I will always think that forcing women to wear dresses and skirts is ridiculous, mostly because this is a primarily Western idea–in other words, it is not embraced by the universal Church. Men of some cultures wear things that would resemble “feminine” attire in the United States, i.e. kilts, togas, etc. But should we condemn them for this? No. Modesty is what is key, not pushing cultural concepts of dress on all people. Even if women wearing “masculine” clothing has less-than-desirable origins, I think that focusing on that is like concentrating on the unfortunate origins of America. European “Christians” were ruthless in their slaughter of the Indians, completely disregarding the dignity of those poor people. Yet to protest and say, “America should not be recognized as a country because it was founded on false Christianity” would be a rash statement. Don’t dismiss America because of its past. On the same token, don’t dismiss changes in dress because they were originally meant to “masculize” women. There is no “inherent” femininity in a piece of cloth–the femininity we associate with it comes from our culture. It does not come from God, the Bible, the Church, or anything related to those. As I said, as long as one’s clothing is truly modest, then it is acceptable. Or at least, it is to me.
Perhaps I do have a bit too much testosterone. If that is true, then I–and everyone else–will just have to accept it. This is the way God made me. I suppose there is no sense in speculating about my “masculine” tendencies any longer, because I keep finding myself thirsting more for answers and feeling wounded by those who don’t agree with me. I am what I am, and there is a reason I am this way. What that reason is is beyond me, beyond you, and beyond all other people. I need to figure this out for myself, in prayer. For now, my thoughts and yours are taking up too much space in my brain, leaving little room for God’s thoughts. This is so backward, and it has taken me much too long to realize that.
If I sound upset, it’s because I am. But don’t worry; it’s a good, healthy sort of upsetness. I am realizing that I rely on people too much, and that I don’t trust God enough. If I am not a traditionally feminine person, it’s because God molded me to be this way! And if Scripture contradicts that, then it must mean that I am reading the Bible incorrectly. Perhaps God’s plan is to gradually develop the more “feminine” qualities in me, or maybe I am just supposed to accept myself as I am. Either way, I don’t think that I’ll be hellbound for breaking a few rules–so long as I am genuinely sorry for being the sinner I am, even if I don’t know or understand all of my sins.
Feel free to continue posting your opinions, encouragements, interpretations, etc. Just know that from this point forth, your words take a backseat to God’s.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
your posts are NOT too long and rambling, if we can’t ramble on here, where can we ramble? we are so blessed that you feel able to share with us and in turn to listen to us.
A lot of what you articulate is confusion in modern society and culture over the meaning of masculinity and femininity in biology, culture, family life and economic life, and confusion over gender roles (which are not the same thing, although they sometimes overlap), and between physcial attributes of each gender, which again are not always the same thing.
I also see a lot of confusion in your post, and other replies, over “what does the Church teach” and a lot of what you and others react against is NOT Catholic teaching, but has come from culture, ethnicity, and Jansenist or Puritan heresies. Some things related to gender ARE authentic Church teaching: i.e. only men can be priests because Jesus chose to become a man (through the cooperation of a woman with the Divine initiative) and because he only ordained men as apostles. The teachings on marriage and the mutuality and complementarity of the sexes.
A lot of things like how do you define Paul’s letter on wifely subservience and husbandly love have definitely been shaped by culture and language.
In this day and age there is no reason a woman cannot be a physician, or hold any other postition, such as military officer, corporate executive, labor union leader etc. that gives her authority over others, including men. She should, as any person should, use all available means to discern whether she is called to such a vocation or career (more than mere personal preference, need to impress someone else, making lots of money or other unworthy reasons).
There are of course physical and developmental reasons (pre- and post-natal) why an individual may or may not display physical and behaviorial attributes assigned to their apparent biologically determined gender, and in extreme cases may result in geninually trans-gender persons. In most cases hormonal, surgical and psychological therapies can resolve many of these situations and restore comfortable functioning.
But for a lot of us (and I am an entire generation older than you, I think) our root problem functioning as women in this society is that we have to deal with deeply conflicting messages about what that means from family, church, spouse, TV, media, movies, friends, celebrities, culture and other sources. We may never have been taught how to discover who we really are independent of all these people–in other words, who we are in relation to God, our Creator.
A lot of what you articulate is confusion in modern society and culture over the meaning of masculinity and femininity in biology, culture, family life and economic life, and confusion over gender roles (which are not the same thing, although they sometimes overlap), and between physcial attributes of each gender, which again are not always the same thing.
I also see a lot of confusion in your post, and other replies, over “what does the Church teach” and a lot of what you and others react against is NOT Catholic teaching, but has come from culture, ethnicity, and Jansenist or Puritan heresies. Some things related to gender ARE authentic Church teaching: i.e. only men can be priests because Jesus chose to become a man (through the cooperation of a woman with the Divine initiative) and because he only ordained men as apostles. The teachings on marriage and the mutuality and complementarity of the sexes.
A lot of things like how do you define Paul’s letter on wifely subservience and husbandly love have definitely been shaped by culture and language.
In this day and age there is no reason a woman cannot be a physician, or hold any other postition, such as military officer, corporate executive, labor union leader etc. that gives her authority over others, including men. She should, as any person should, use all available means to discern whether she is called to such a vocation or career (more than mere personal preference, need to impress someone else, making lots of money or other unworthy reasons).
There are of course physical and developmental reasons (pre- and post-natal) why an individual may or may not display physical and behaviorial attributes assigned to their apparent biologically determined gender, and in extreme cases may result in geninually trans-gender persons. In most cases hormonal, surgical and psychological therapies can resolve many of these situations and restore comfortable functioning.
But for a lot of us (and I am an entire generation older than you, I think) our root problem functioning as women in this society is that we have to deal with deeply conflicting messages about what that means from family, church, spouse, TV, media, movies, friends, celebrities, culture and other sources. We may never have been taught how to discover who we really are independent of all these people–in other words, who we are in relation to God, our Creator.
T
Teresa9
Guest
Dearest puzzleannie
This is exactly what we should be doing! What society does as a whole is to slot people neatly into pigeon holes and anyone outside of that doesn’t fit into the national statistical so-called ‘norm’, this always annoys me, because what statistics never show is ‘people’!!!
Someone somewhere decides we all should be acting this way, or doing this and as a result people either jump on the band wagon or feel in some way ‘odd’ for not doing that. So for women, (some of this could apply to men) presently unless you are showing off most of your bodily bits, having huge amounts of liberating free sexual encounters, are racing up the career ladder without care or love for fellow employees, can run a super home full of the latest gadgets, have lots of cash to spend on needless material gain, are super fit with no disability whatsoever, can have children, have endless amounts of friends who share the same values, then infact by these standards you are a failure if you are not doing the same. This is what secular opinion and the media tells me I should be. But I am Teresa with my own ideas about who I want to be and those ideas revolve around my faith. The chasing after all these ‘ideas’ of society have no fulfillment in them for me, they don’t bring about any deeper sense of happiness/joy or fulfillment. Peace of my heart is only found in Christ Jesus and the pursuit of all the abovementioned doesn’t lead me to that peace.
Rejecting secular principles on the other hand doesn’t make me a little down trodden woman , no it liberates me from the endless cycle of the self which leads to an inward overanalysis and a continual preoccupation with the self. It doesn’t make me a push over or a second class citizen where men rule in some sort of caveman manner over women, it doesn’t reduce me to a servant of a man, it doesn’t make me any less equal to a man, but what it does do, is stop this endless and destructive war between the sexes and reintroduce love and respect between the sexes.
In short it all depends on what you take on board to yourself how you will define your femininity, just as it defines who you are and what sort of person you are comfortable being.
God Bless you all and much peace and love to you xxx
This is exactly what we should be doing! What society does as a whole is to slot people neatly into pigeon holes and anyone outside of that doesn’t fit into the national statistical so-called ‘norm’, this always annoys me, because what statistics never show is ‘people’!!!
Someone somewhere decides we all should be acting this way, or doing this and as a result people either jump on the band wagon or feel in some way ‘odd’ for not doing that. So for women, (some of this could apply to men) presently unless you are showing off most of your bodily bits, having huge amounts of liberating free sexual encounters, are racing up the career ladder without care or love for fellow employees, can run a super home full of the latest gadgets, have lots of cash to spend on needless material gain, are super fit with no disability whatsoever, can have children, have endless amounts of friends who share the same values, then infact by these standards you are a failure if you are not doing the same. This is what secular opinion and the media tells me I should be. But I am Teresa with my own ideas about who I want to be and those ideas revolve around my faith. The chasing after all these ‘ideas’ of society have no fulfillment in them for me, they don’t bring about any deeper sense of happiness/joy or fulfillment. Peace of my heart is only found in Christ Jesus and the pursuit of all the abovementioned doesn’t lead me to that peace.
Rejecting secular principles on the other hand doesn’t make me a little down trodden woman , no it liberates me from the endless cycle of the self which leads to an inward overanalysis and a continual preoccupation with the self. It doesn’t make me a push over or a second class citizen where men rule in some sort of caveman manner over women, it doesn’t reduce me to a servant of a man, it doesn’t make me any less equal to a man, but what it does do, is stop this endless and destructive war between the sexes and reintroduce love and respect between the sexes.
In short it all depends on what you take on board to yourself how you will define your femininity, just as it defines who you are and what sort of person you are comfortable being.
God Bless you all and much peace and love to you xxx
C
csr
Guest
Just know that from this point forth, your words take a backseat to God’s.
Good!
Men and women dressing differently is not primarily Western, and is also not limited to Christianity. Where men wear kilts the women dress differently; men and women are recognizably different in all cultures, except in our increasingly decadent West. The minute differences of cut in trousers is an insufficient differentiation, and the associations toward radical egalitarianism, efficiency as primary virtue, and the elimination of sex role differentiation are impossible to overlook–except by those who want to overlook them.
You mentioned the Indians and Christianity. The Catholic Church was wonderful for the Indians. (1) Millions of Indians converted to the true faith with the obvious encouragement of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. The Protestants and the secular governments were very harmful to the Indians and still are to this day. So, ‘Christianity and the Indians’ don’t amount to an example of undesirable origins proving that a bad influence or concept can later be a good one. Catholicism is neither a bad influence nor a bad concept.
*A lot of things like how do you define Paul’s letter on wifely subservience… *
This is the argument that some aspects of the Word of God are delimited by culture. This is the same argument some Protestants use to say that Our Lord didn’t really mean that it is literally His Body and Blood, that in the cultural milieu He had to exaggerate a bit. As for wifely subservience, I’m not sure how to be encouraging. Women despise this idea, especially when asked about it. But Scripture is very clear that as Our Lord is to the Church, the husband is to the wife; nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that perhaps the wife should be the primary decision-maker. I have noticed that in households where there is a tussle for control or a rejection by the wife of being under the husband there are problems: long-running disputes, unhappiness, unhappy children, divorce, no children, and/or other signs of discontent. A woman who accepts her role is actually very powerful. Remember that this life is not all there is. It is a pilgrimage to heaven (or hell). We live under certain limitations for the present, because we sinned and we inherited sin. The role differentiation is not random. I will always believe that there is an extent to which those who reject the differentiation secretly wish they could be encouraged toward it. And, I will always believe that it is as much a challenge for men to be the head of the household as it is for women to permit that. Men and women both long to reject their roles. But, as they do, pan-demonium breaks out. That’s what we have today.
Good!
Men and women dressing differently is not primarily Western, and is also not limited to Christianity. Where men wear kilts the women dress differently; men and women are recognizably different in all cultures, except in our increasingly decadent West. The minute differences of cut in trousers is an insufficient differentiation, and the associations toward radical egalitarianism, efficiency as primary virtue, and the elimination of sex role differentiation are impossible to overlook–except by those who want to overlook them.
You mentioned the Indians and Christianity. The Catholic Church was wonderful for the Indians. (1) Millions of Indians converted to the true faith with the obvious encouragement of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. The Protestants and the secular governments were very harmful to the Indians and still are to this day. So, ‘Christianity and the Indians’ don’t amount to an example of undesirable origins proving that a bad influence or concept can later be a good one. Catholicism is neither a bad influence nor a bad concept.
*A lot of things like how do you define Paul’s letter on wifely subservience… *
This is the argument that some aspects of the Word of God are delimited by culture. This is the same argument some Protestants use to say that Our Lord didn’t really mean that it is literally His Body and Blood, that in the cultural milieu He had to exaggerate a bit. As for wifely subservience, I’m not sure how to be encouraging. Women despise this idea, especially when asked about it. But Scripture is very clear that as Our Lord is to the Church, the husband is to the wife; nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that perhaps the wife should be the primary decision-maker. I have noticed that in households where there is a tussle for control or a rejection by the wife of being under the husband there are problems: long-running disputes, unhappiness, unhappy children, divorce, no children, and/or other signs of discontent. A woman who accepts her role is actually very powerful. Remember that this life is not all there is. It is a pilgrimage to heaven (or hell). We live under certain limitations for the present, because we sinned and we inherited sin. The role differentiation is not random. I will always believe that there is an extent to which those who reject the differentiation secretly wish they could be encouraged toward it. And, I will always believe that it is as much a challenge for men to be the head of the household as it is for women to permit that. Men and women both long to reject their roles. But, as they do, pan-demonium breaks out. That’s what we have today.
D
Della
Guest
Dear kfarose2585, I get the impression (probably wrong 
) that my post about prenatal testosterone was not helpful to you–that you may have felt I was challenging your efforts to define your femininity. Just the opposite is true, I assure you!
I too have struggled with being a woman who feels and thinks more in ways thought masculine. Learning that during fetal development a wash of testosterone can shape a female so that she feels and thinks more along masculine lines FREED me from hating being female–not loaded me down with yet another affliction.
I have never slobbered over babies nor carried about the latest fashions nor loved girl talk and that sort of thing. Most women I know talk about nothing but their children and grandchildren (I am now 56), and I could care less about that sort of conversation. I am much happier discussing ideas than relationships, which is what men tend to do more than women.
I went through the stage you are now in and came out of it through prayer and by carefully avoiding any attitude that might stir up bitterness or anger or feelings that I am less than others for being a bit different from them. After all, our differences are God given and so ought to be appreciated. The artist ought not to stop painting because others don’t have his talent nor the singer stay silent. :yup:
Whatever gifts God has given you, share them and be happy and don’t worry about what society thinks. The Church does not condemn people for being what they are, and neither does Christ. God created every person and every personality, and all can become holy and filled with love no matter how different or ordinary they may be.
You said you are going to pray and seek God’s guidance, and that is good! I encourage you to do so–within Christ’s Church which is his body and his bride. All souls are “feminine” compared to Christ–our souls are his beloved and our bodies reflect his love in the way we share them with our spouses, our brothers and sisters, our society. Be sure that God has a way for you to be useful and fulfilled the way he made you and the way he made me. As the saying goes: It’s all good.
) that my post about prenatal testosterone was not helpful to you–that you may have felt I was challenging your efforts to define your femininity. Just the opposite is true, I assure you!I too have struggled with being a woman who feels and thinks more in ways thought masculine. Learning that during fetal development a wash of testosterone can shape a female so that she feels and thinks more along masculine lines FREED me from hating being female–not loaded me down with yet another affliction.
I have never slobbered over babies nor carried about the latest fashions nor loved girl talk and that sort of thing. Most women I know talk about nothing but their children and grandchildren (I am now 56), and I could care less about that sort of conversation. I am much happier discussing ideas than relationships, which is what men tend to do more than women.
I went through the stage you are now in and came out of it through prayer and by carefully avoiding any attitude that might stir up bitterness or anger or feelings that I am less than others for being a bit different from them. After all, our differences are God given and so ought to be appreciated. The artist ought not to stop painting because others don’t have his talent nor the singer stay silent. :yup:
Whatever gifts God has given you, share them and be happy and don’t worry about what society thinks. The Church does not condemn people for being what they are, and neither does Christ. God created every person and every personality, and all can become holy and filled with love no matter how different or ordinary they may be.
You said you are going to pray and seek God’s guidance, and that is good! I encourage you to do so–within Christ’s Church which is his body and his bride. All souls are “feminine” compared to Christ–our souls are his beloved and our bodies reflect his love in the way we share them with our spouses, our brothers and sisters, our society. Be sure that God has a way for you to be useful and fulfilled the way he made you and the way he made me. As the saying goes: It’s all good.
- Status