Affordable Health Care is a Christian Act

[Swiss_Guy]

Ignored everything I mentioned from USCCB. And some people do go hungry in this country.

Personally I’m starting to wonder if socialism isn’t all that bad. To tell you the truth I’d rather have it over capitalism.

Socialism over capitalism??? Socialism doesn’t work. Look at Greece. Although capitalism is a broad term that can mean anything from classical liberalism through ordoliberalism. So I suppose if you mean the capitalism from the industrial revolution (tons of poverty from greedy wealthy elites) I can understand. But, although I’m biased, I don’t know how you can’t say something like ordoliberalism is worse than socialism.

 

[mitex]

As to your first comment I refer you to here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9209139&postcount=20
To your second comment: Not because of any lack of Christian action. There is plenty of places people can and do go for food. You can’t help those who are too prideful to ask or seek help.

Why don’t you ask the Ukranian people just how “good” and “charitable” and Christ-like Socialism was to them.

Ask the people of Greece how socialism is working for them?

The difference between capitalism and socialism is this: capitalism says that everyone has the freedom and opprtunity to succeed if they work hard enough while at the same time accepting that not everyone will want to. Socialism promises that everyone will succeed while in reality only a few bureaucratic elites actually do while the masses are stifled under their yoke.

It amazes me that someone can see the economic news coming out of Europe every day and say that with a straight face.

The Bishops support universal healthcare. They are right. Plain and simple

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

The Bishops support universal healthcare. They are right. Plain and simple

1)Some bishops on a borad at the USCCB say that health care ought to be available to all people. That is not an endorsment of any socialized sysytem. You fail to make the distinction. Universal healthcare systems like Obamacare and other socialized systems violate the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. This principle itself likes in stark contrast to anything based in socialism/communism.

So the fact is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

2)The opinions of a group of bishops speaking on temporal matters like this is no different than this same group of Bishops saying that they like the Boston Red Sox. There opinion on this is not binding an all faithfull.

3)That they are right is nothing but your opinion. Plain and simple. And given your previous statements and your position outside of the Church your hardly in a position to tell me what to believe.

 

[zenith15]

Health Care should be a right. The Church does not have the funds to cover the medical bills for all US citizens, nor do charitable institutions. Most charities are designed for the poorest of the poor–in my state we were told when applying for Medicaid that one must make less than $800 per month for a family of four to qualify. I lost my job and with in went my insurance. I COBRA’D my policy thanks to Obama’s act that was passed covering 66% of the fees of COBRA–otherwise I could NEVER have afforded it. I could not get private insurance due to pre existing health issues.

One month my husband accidentally transposed the last two digits in the check to COBRA, making it 24 cents short. As a result I was kicked off COBRA. I now have no insurance and no hope of obtaining any. I am currently unable to work due to my husband’s end stage liver disease (he is awaiting a transplant–he has Medicare) and my special needs autistic child (who has CHIPS). I go to a “charity” clinic run by a Catholic hospital. I am considered a “top tier” patient, meaning that on the sliding scale I pay the top price, which just went up from $30 per visit to $50 per visit. That is for family practice. If you need to see any type of specialist you must make your own arrangements. Why are we on the highest pay level? Well, because of our vast wealth of course! We live on my husband’s social security disability check and my son’s small income for being the child of a disabled father, and that brings us a net income of about 2,200 per month. That makes us way too rich to afford most programs for the poor, and way way way too poor to afford anything else.

I asked my charity care doctor, what if I DID get cancer–would there be any way for me to get treatment for that, or would I just be allowed to die? I was told that most likely, unless I was accepted into some kind of a study group, I would simply be allowed to die.

This is not right.

 

[davidmlamb]

Ignored everything I mentioned from USCCB. And some people do go hungry in this country.

Personally I’m starting to wonder if socialism isn’t all that bad. To tell you the truth I’d rather have it over capitalism.

So would I to a degree! I would rather have a government like Germany or France which are truly pro life and pro human dignity states. Capitalism IS Totalitarianism just not to the few who benefit from it. In short I would like an economic system fueled by a free market but with safety nets and mandatory collective bargaining for every company with 15 or more employees. Additionally with Medicare for all from cradle to grave.

Peace,

David

 

[davidmlamb]

Health Care should be a right. The Church does not have the funds to cover the medical bills for all US citizens, nor do charitable institutions. Most charities are designed for the poorest of the poor–in my state we were told when applying for Medicaid that one must make less than $800 per month for a family of four to qualify. I lost my job and with in went my insurance. I COBRA’D my policy thanks to Obama’s act that was passed covering 66% of the fees of COBRA–otherwise I could NEVER have afforded it. I could not get private insurance due to pre existing health issues.

One month my husband accidentally transposed the last two digits in the check to COBRA, making it 24 cents short. As a result I was kicked off COBRA. I now have no insurance and no hope of obtaining any. I am currently unable to work due to my husband’s end stage liver disease (he is awaiting a transplant–he has Medicare) and my special needs autistic child (who has CHIPS). I go to a “charity” clinic run by a Catholic hospital. I am considered a “top tier” patient, meaning that on the sliding scale I pay the top price, which just went up from $30 per visit to $50 per visit. That is for family practice. If you need to see any type of specialist you must make your own arrangements. Why are we on the highest pay level? Well, because of our vast wealth of course! We live on my husband’s social security disability check and my son’s small income for being the child of a disabled father, and that brings us a net income of about 2,200 per month. That makes us way too rich to afford most programs for the poor, and way way way too poor to afford anything else.

I asked my charity care doctor, what if I DID get cancer–would there be any way for me to get treatment for that, or would I just be allowed to die? I was told that most likely, unless I was accepted into some kind of a study group, I would simply be allowed to die.

This is not right.

Its Euthenasia and it is largely ignored by the Church in America. The Church simply does not have the resources to provide medical care for every needy familky. This is why the state should step in with the Churches blessings. The Church can provide food to the masses but not health care.

Peace,

David

 

[davidmlamb]

1)Some bishops on a borad at the USCCB say that health care ought to be available to all people. That is not an endorsment of any socialized sysytem. You fail to make the distinction. Universal healthcare systems like Obamacare and other socialized systems violate the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. This principle itself likes in stark contrast to anything based in socialism/communism.

So the fact is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

2)The opinions of a group of bishops speaking on temporal matters like this is no different than this same group of Bishops saying that they like the Boston Red Sox. There opinion on this is not binding an all faithfull.

3)That they are right is nothing but your opinion. Plain and simple. And given your previous statements and your position outside of the Church your hardly in a position to tell me what to believe.

It is YOU GreyPilgrim who does not know what you are talking about! Not some Bishops from the USCCB but the vast majority of them! It is no more an “opinion” than their “opinion” on abortion. The USCCB have endorsed universal health care since 1981. If it violated subsidiary than the Church would be calling for the abolishment of Universal Health Care in every other country including the Vatican! Subsidiary is not even violated in the Netherlands. Your OPINION here is preposterous and corrupted by right wing conservatism which is another gospel in direct conflict with the gospel if Jesus Christ. I direct your attention to Galatians 1:6-9 for rejecting the Gospel in favor of a different gospel, and to the USCCB on Universal Health Care. It clearly implies that government is responsible for administering it.

old.usccb.org/healthcare/faqs.shtml

David

 

[sedonaman]

Ignored everything I mentioned from USCCB. …

What did the USCCB say that contradicted Quod Apostolici Muneris, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism ?

Personally I’m starting to wonder if socialism isn’t all that bad. To tell you the truth I’d rather have it over capitalism.

You can. Just move to a country that is ruled by it. Cuba and North Korea come to mind. I don’t know about NK, but Cuba has free health care. Delta is ready when you are.

 

[sedonaman]

… It clearly implies that government is responsible for administering it.

And the government is not responsible when it spends other peoples’ money. How many times can Lucy pull away the football before Charlie Brown realizes she will always pull it away? It would seem that socialism will never die because each new generation, being recalcitrant as they are, has to learn the hard way that there is no such thing as a free lunch. :nope:

 

[sedonaman]

Ideologies aren’t all that important. What’s important is psychology.

The “What’s Happening Now” constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I became an operative working with What’s Happeners. With What’s Happeners, all you have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves What’s Happeners don’t have a clue as to political reality.

What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard workers and convince them that they should support social programs that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions and best interests. Put a little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a What’s Happener operative instead of a Some Other was because there were more What’s Happeners who didn’t have a clue than there were Some Others.

Truth is relative. Truth is what you can make the voter believe is the truth. If you’re smart enough, truth is what you make the voter think it is. That’s why I’m a What’s Happener. I can make the What’s Happener voters think whatever I want them to.

– James Carville

 

[Ender]

Not some Bishops from the USCCB but the vast majority of them!

If it was a doctrine of the Church wouldn’t you expect all of them to call for it?

It is no more an “opinion” than their “opinion” on abortion.

Actually, their position on how health care should be provided is an opinion. You can find statements condemning abortion in the catechism but you will find nothing in any Church document specifying how states should structure their health care programs. Since the Church does not define how it is to be done, any recommendations on that subject are by definition … opinions.

The USCCB have endorsed universal health care since 1981.

Don’t confuse policy documents emanating from the USCCB with Church doctrines. Nor has even the USCCB attempted to define what “universal health care” would mean and depending on the definition the system we have in place today would qualify inasmuch as quite literally everyone who can get to a non-profit hospital will receive health care.

If it violated subsidiary than the Church would be calling for the abolishment of Universal Health Care in every other country including the Vatican!

You’ve switched your reference source. The USCCB can support whatever they want because they aren’t speaking for the Church. The Church won’t condemn universal health care because (1) the term is too vague to be meaningful and (2) the decision to provide or not provide it is prudential and the Church rarely comments on prudential issues.

Your OPINION here is preposterous and corrupted…

His opinion (like that of the USCCB) is either correct or incorrect, and disagreement on your part is no sign of error on his.

I direct your attention to Galatians 1:6-9 for rejecting the Gospel in favor of a different gospel, and to the USCCB on Universal Health Care. It clearly implies that government is responsible for administering it.

Implies??? Surely if you recognize that something may only be implied then there may well be a valid disagreement over its meaning. Church doctrines are carefully defined; they are never implied.

Ender

 

[zenith15]

What did the USCCB say that contradicted Quod Apostolici Muneris, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism ?

You can. Just move to a country that is ruled by it. Cuba and North Korea come to mind. I don’t know about NK, but Cuba has free health care. Delta is ready when you are.

That’s communisim.

 

[zenith15]

So would I to a degree! I would rather have a government like Germany or France which are truly pro life and pro human dignity states. Capitalism IS Totalitarianism just not to the few who benefit from it. In short I would like an economic system fueled by a free market but with safety nets and mandatory collective bargaining for every company with 15 or more employees. Additionally with Medicare for all from cradle to grave.

Peace,

David

Amen and Amen. I am saddened to see the takeover of much of the Church by right wing extremists who seem to care not for the church’s poor and needy. Every other first world country has a national health care policy–every single one. We can brag all we want about having the best health care in the world, blah blah blah, but what good does it do if only maybe half the population can even begin to access it? I saw a man on TV being interviewed on the street at a political rally who stated that hey, the poor can always go to the emergency room, so they have care, right? This just shows how off the mark and unaware of the facts people can be when they are not IN that position themselves. ER;s are not set up to take care of chronic health care issues, nor to do testing to diagnose many serious health care issues, and as someone else mentioned, if you need to see a dentist–whether for an abscessed tooth or oral cancer–forget it. Ain’t no such thing. Even the few charity dentists available usually ONLY take Medicaid patients and even then they ONLY extract teeth and MAYBE do fillings–nothing else–no dentures, no root canals, no crowns, etc. This leaves people in a very poor condition to be trying to get a job, even if they ARE able to work.

 

[davidmlamb]

Socialism over capitalism??? Socialism doesn’t work. Look at Greece. Although capitalism is a broad term that can mean anything from classical liberalism through ordoliberalism. So I suppose if you mean the capitalism from the industrial revolution (tons of poverty from greedy wealthy elites) I can understand. But, although I’m biased, I don’t know how you can’t say something like ordoliberalism is worse than socialism.

Greece can say the same thing about Capitalism…"*look at the United States 1929 and 2008!" *Neither economic systems are perfect and Greece is recovering just like we are. The difference is the Greeks would never want our system of economics and labor. The Greeks are actually a lot more free then Americans, at least the Working Class where there is no such thing as "right to work" and "Employer at Will" Laws, which undermines a just and living wage. Neither is their such a thing as the working class not having health care or the working class going bankrupt because of medical bills.

We don’t have to use Greece as an example either, we can use Germany or even the Netherlands or Canada. We can use the European Union where the Euro is stronger than the dollar. In all these “socialist” countries the economic system is working fine. There has never been an example of a perfect economic system including the United States were Capitalism has failed several times. The difference is in these countries the common working class person is happier than the common working class person in the states because they have a lot less worries and therefore a lot more peace.

Peace,
David

 

[sedonaman]

That’s communisim. [sic]

QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, the Encyclical on socialism, promulgated 28 December, 1878, condemns socialism, communism, and nihilism as a "wicked confederacy. The opening paragraph states,

At the very beginning of Our pontificate, as the nature of Our apostolic office demanded, we hastened to point out in an encyclical letter addressed to you, venerable brethren, the deadly plague that is creeping into the very fibers of human society and leading it on to the verge of destruction; at the same time, We pointed out also the most effectual remedies by which society might be restored and might escape from the very serious dangers which threaten it. But the evils which We then deplored have so rapidly increased that We are again compelled to address you, as though we heard the voice of the prophet ringing in Our ears: “Cry, cease not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet.” You understand, venerable brethren, that We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning – the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever.

For all practical purposes, the differences are negligible. Besides, Castro’s motto is “Socialism or Death!”

In department faculty meetings, political bumper stickers, buttons, petitions, and fund-raising requests are openly solicited [on campus]. One of my colleagues, who travels widely as part of a UNICEF team, shared her slides of a trip to Cuba at a faculty meeting. Her conclusion was that she was “disappointed” that things weren’t going better, because, of course, Cuba had such a “superior political system.” Heads nodded wisely all around the table.

“Confessions of a Republican Academic”
Prof. Laura Freburg

 

[davidmlamb]

What did the USCCB say that contradicted Quod Apostolici Muneris, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism ?

You can. Just move to a country that is ruled by it. Cuba and North Korea come to mind. I don’t know about NK, but Cuba has free health care. Delta is ready when you are.

How about the option of moving to Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Japan the UK, the Netherlands, New Zealand? Why do you have to falsely characterize that every other country except the United States is like Cuba ofr North Korea? There are Americans living and working in Communist China and are pretty happy.

Be that as it may one cannot just move to another country like they can another state. They must apply for a residency VISA and that is very difficult to do and in some cases impossible. The younger you are the easier it is to migrate to another country for residency and MANY Americans do exactly that. But for many more Americans they are pretty much stuck in the states like it or not.

Peace,

David

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Amen and Amen. I am saddened to see the takeover of much of the Church by right wing extremists who seem to care not for the church’s poor and needy. Every other first world country has a national health care policy–every single one. We can brag all we want about having the best health care in the world, blah blah blah, but what good does it do if only maybe half the population can even begin to access it? I saw a man on TV being interviewed on the street at a political rally who stated that hey, the poor can always go to the emergency room, so they have care, right? This just shows how off the mark and unaware of the facts people can be when they are not IN that position themselves. ER;s are not set up to take care of chronic health care issues, nor to do testing to diagnose many serious health care issues, and as someone else mentioned, if you need to see a dentist–whether for an abscessed tooth or oral cancer–forget it. Ain’t no such thing. Even the few charity dentists available usually ONLY take Medicaid patients and even then they ONLY extract teeth and MAYBE do fillings–nothing else–no dentures, no root canals, no crowns, etc. This leaves people in a very poor condition to be trying to get a job, even if they ARE able to work.

Right wing extremists? Could of fooled me… I thought it was being taken over by pro-choice socialists.

 

[davidmlamb]

And the government is not responsible when it spends other peoples’ money. How many times can Lucy pull away the football before Charlie Brown realizes she will always pull it away? It would seem that socialism will never die because each new generation, being recalcitrant as they are, has to learn the hard way that there is no such thing as a free lunch. :nope:

The government spends other peoples money when it builds roads and bridges, provides police and fire protection, Libraries, education. Jesus endorsed spending other peoples money when he said “Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.” Not only Jesus but so did Saint Paul and the Apostles when they required all the earned income and proceeds from the the sale of assets to be divided evenly so that no needs were left unmet (2 Cor 8:12-14). All the wealth of the world belongs to God and we are onlly stewards of God’s wealth.

Peace,
David

 

[sedonaman]

How about the option of moving to Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Japan the UK, the Netherlands, New Zealand? Why do you have to falsely characterize that every other country except the United States is like Cuba ofr North Korea? There are Americans living and working in Communist China and are pretty happy.

Be that as it may one cannot just move to another country like they can another state. They must apply for a residency VISA and that is very difficult to do and in some cases impossible. The younger you are the easier it is to migrate to another country for residency and MANY Americans do exactly that. But for many more Americans they are pretty much stuck in the states like it or not.

Peace,

David

I guess capitalism really isn’t all that bad after all if you have to make up excuses for not escaping. The U.S. has a lot of aliens entering the country illegally on our Southwestern border. These aliens had to pay a coyote thousands of dollars for the privilege of risking their lives, and the lives of their families, to cross a burning desert just to get to a country where they could be oppressed by capitalism. There is a very long line to get into the U.S. and a very short line to get out. Do you know something the rest of the world doesn’t?

 

[sedonaman]

The government spends other peoples money when it builds roads and bridges, provides police and fire protection, Libraries, education.

I did say “responsible”. Ever hear of the Road to Nowhere? Education is non-existent in spite of the trillions spent.

Jesus endorsed spending other peoples money when he said “Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.” Not only Jesus but so did Saint Paul and the Apostles when they required all the earned income and proceeds from the the sale of assets to be divided evenly so that no needs were left unmet (2 Cor 8:12-14). All the wealth of the world belongs to God and we are onlly stewards of God’s wealth.

Then I would suggest you do likewise. You have a computer; sell it. You have internet access; get rid of it. Sell your TV and cancel your satellite subscription. Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. After you’ve done all that, then, and only then, will you have some moral authority to tell others what to do with their hard-earned money.