Afraid I am raising a bully

[EasterJoy]

She’s old enough to understand compassion, and she’s old enough to understand concequences.

Yes…at least, she’s at least old enough to figure out what side her bread is buttered on. This doesn’t need to be all that complicated. Doing the right thing just needs to give better results, while failing to do it needs to give her decidedly worse ones.

It has been estimated that the prevalence of identifiable sociopaths in the US may be as high as 4%, while the prevelence in Taiwan is estimated at somewhere between 0.14 and 0.03% (this is according to author Martha Stout). The difference? I’ve heard two differences cited. One is that the US is an individualistic, Ayn Rand-worshipping society, where the behaviors of sociopath give an advantage, whereas Taiwan is a society where the same behaviors are a huge social and career handicap. The other difference is that in Asian countries, morality is taught along the lines of “this is what moral people who want any respect from other people do”, while here morality is taught with a “how would you feel if someone did that to you?” standard. Well, if a person doesn’t naturally care how other people feel or experience emotional distress at the emotional distress of others, the latter is a really lousy way to teach morality. In contrast, the former way of teaching morality doesn’t require any emotional connection. You treat other people according to certain standards of decency because you’re expected to, because you’re going to be in hot water if you don’t, and that is that.

IOW, when you correct your daughter, tell her “our family does not treat people that way”, rather than “how would you feel if she did that to you?” or “can’t you see that she’s sad?” No, there is a way you’re going to treat that other little girl because you belong to our family. If you could abuse her and get her to thank you for it, it would still be wrong, and we’ll not let you get away with it.

This also has the advantage that you’re not shaming your daughter for lacking some particular emotions. After all, if she feels nothing for the other kids, she can’t help it! If she’s unfeeling, that doesn’t mean she can’t be moral. Go with expecting her to do what is right, and then if she develops empathy for others, so much the better. Until then, lack of feelings or understanding of feelings will be no barrier towards her doing the right thing. In fact, she’ll know that despising somebody’s guts is no excuse for abusing them, while liking them is no excuse to bend the rules for them or letting them send her on guilt trips. Disengaging her moral compass from her feelings is not such a bad thing!!

 

[abedog13]

EasterJoy, I like the approach you listed about the type of moral behavior that is expected. Our DD, unfortunately, does NOT feel the emotions. I’m thinking your tactic might be a good one.

TheRealJuliane, my mother is NPD, Borderline, and probably more. This DD has so many of the characteristics that I have seen in my mother that DH and I are terrified and we take this VERY seriously. I think we are hyper alerted to it because of my mother, so your point is very well taken.

We did do some pointed chores with her this eve(a relative is coming to visit and we did some deep cleaning in a usually unused part of the house). She did seem to take great pride in what she did and seemed very pleased with the results. She also went and got some of her favorite stuffed animals to decorate the room with. But then 10 minutes later she was back at her regular behavior with her sister. Clearly this can’t be solved in one evening, but it was disheartening nonetheless…

 

[cmscms]

We have engaged many forms of help for her for the past 3 years and she does respond to the interventions.

With all due respect, this leads me to believe there is an inconsistency in how she is being raised. If she responded to interventions, then the way the intervention was handled should be part of her daily discipline

She finds the person that is least likely to stand up for himself in a given situation and then takes advantage of that person to her own benefit. Even when the other child starts to cry she does nothing to console the child. Then she acts like she doesn’t know why the child is upset or who caused it.

Well… you can’t do anything to make her feel compassion for a crying kid. She has her free will and if she just does not have empathy, there is no giving it to her.

However, she can be taught in a ‘textbook’ manner. Teachers repeat 1+1 = 2 often enough for kids to learn it. In the same manner (as time consuming as this is going to be), she is old enough to be taugh ‘The reason that kid is crying is because you did x, y, Z.’

Then ask her to repeat and say ‘Why was that kid crying’ if she plays dumb, 5 minute in the time out chair. Then you try it again. First say ‘repeat after me, the child cried because you took her toy away’, after she repeated it successfully, then ask ‘Why did the child cry’. If she gives you the attitude or plays dumb again, back to the time out chair. As she gets older, you will be able to sit her down and make her write down why the child cried.

Then once she is clear on the reason the kid cried you say 'and the consequence for what you did is abc

After a while, don’t tell her why the other kid cried and ask her to figure it out. She may never feel empathy but she might learn what brings consequences.

Now another tatic that worked on a friends granddaughter. She always had to have her way. She was 6 and there was two months of school left. Her mom said ‘For everyday you are good at school you will get a sticker and if you get 40 stickers you will get a trip to the zoo’ (the mom was a teacher at the school so it was easy for her to know how the kid behaved. Then every morning before going to school she made her daughter say a mantra ‘Today, I wll behave at school, I will help other kids and I will not call them names etc’. Apparently that worked much better than any time out could have

CM

 

[EasterJoy]

Our DD, unfortunately, does NOT feel the emotions.

In that case, don’t connect morality with emotional connection to others at all. It would be like using a color wheel with someone who is color blind…it will seem like total nonsense. She’ll think you’re trying to sell her a false bill of goods, and so when it becomes her decision, she’ll toss it over.

Rather, let her know that it is OK not to feel something for others or even to dislike them, as long as she uses proper manners–including strictly avoiding the more subtle ways of communicating low regard, and let’s not let her play stupid about that!–which is non-negotiable for members of your family. That way, she won’t feel she has to choose between morality and holding her own true opinions. Instead, she will self-identify with a moral behavior that rises above lack of feelings for or even negative feelings about others.

Realize, though, that she may or may not be terribly astute in recognizing those more subtle clues. That ability varies greatly, without regard to whether a person feels emotional connection to others. The feeling of the feelings and the awareness of certain subtle behaviors in oneself and others that are typically perceived as showing feelings are quite different things. (And boy, do many clever sociopaths make hay with that realization! )

I mean that you have to realize that in some sense when we teach our children manners, we teach them to be actors. When the child feels none of what prompted invention of the manners, this is doubly true. If you daughter does not feel the feelings, she will need to moor her morality in the intellectual principles of moral behavior. If her manners are all exterior, she may only become an actor at human interaction, and that can be a dangerous person to be around.

 

[HouseArrest]

EasterJoy, your posts above are very interesting and thought provoking. The statistics on sociaopaths in Taiwan and the US are a surprise to me. Your reasons suggest there could be some kind of “cure” for people with such tendencies. I would be interesed to hear more.

There are two statements you made that I would specifically like you to comment on, as I see them as contradictory. I am certainly no expert here! Thanks!

“If her manners are all exterior, she may only become an actor at human interaction, and that can be a dangerous person to be around.”

“Disengaging her moral compass from her feelings is not such a bad thing!!”

 

[alphawoman]

I think the suggestions for added responsibility are good ideas. However, demonstrating initiative and leadership at six should also earn some fun, self-fulling outlets.

Has your daughter had much exposure to competitive sports, or individual sports carried out in a group, like swimming? I’m a firm believer that sports are an excellent activity for active children like your daughter. They provide an opportunity to learn personal discipline, leadership, patience, and cooperation. Learning a new life skill is also tremendously rewarding.

Just a thought.

 

[alphawoman]

Also, cmscms & EasterJoy: I enjoyed your posts. Thanks!

 

[abedog13]

Yes, she has been involved in physical activity for many years. This year she will do cross country and soccer again. She also goes gymnastics during the school year.

She gets really mad when someone else is faster than her. I hope that she will come to learn from this.