Afraid to go to TLM?

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lucybeebee

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Did anyone else have the experience of being afraid to go to a TLM? I was initially afraid of going to a TLM because I thought that my piety level would be judged insuficent or something along those lines. (I’ve since joined a FSSP parish). To me, it seems like typing in search terms like “latin mass” or “tridentine” into a search engine is like doing a search for “jews”; seemingly innocous words that nonetheless bring up all kinds of strange things. There seems to be a widespread perception among many Catholics who don’t attend TLMs that those who do look down on them. I think if this perception was changed, then maybe more people might be willing to attend TLMs. How can we convince more Catholics (and non-Catholics) of the wonders of the Classical Roman Rite?
 
lucybeebee said:
Did anyone else have the experience of being afraid to go to a TLM? I was initially afraid of going to a TLM because I thought that my piety level would be judged insuficent or something along those lines. (I’ve since joined a FSSP parish). To me, it seems like typing in search terms like “latin mass” or “tridentine” into a search engine is like doing a search for “jews”; seemingly innocous words that nonetheless bring up all kinds of strange things. There seems to be a widespread perception among many Catholics who don’t attend TLMs that those who do look down on them. I think if this perception was changed, then maybe more people might be willing to attend TLMs. How can we convince more Catholics (and non-Catholics) of the wonders of the Classical Roman Rite?
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any wonder i’ve had about attending a TLM have been whisked away and quelched quite successfully by some of the people on Catholic Answers who participate in the TLM and post here… I hear the words that the TLM is for the glory of God, but in the time i’ve been here, i wonder about that, i’ve seen no evidence among TLM participants that the liturgy is the crux of their worship… clothes, coverings, posture, gesture… it seems that the legalistic underpinnings on ‘doing it right’ overshadow the NO… simply doing it.
I don’t think the TLM people look down on other Catholics… a lot of the TLM come off as very smug, i don’t bother getting upset by that, its probably that attitude is simply a shadow of a bigger personality issue… i think that people who go out of their way to be disobedient to the Second Vatican Council that they look down on the NO mass and think the traditional way is the ‘better’ way are showing pride and disobedience to the wisdom of The Catholic Church who implemented changes for a reason that may not have anything to do with ‘changing’ rather, may have been more to expose those that follow the orders of the Magesterium and those that follow the orders of their own comfort.

The TLM lost its sparkle to me because of these forums. I realized i’m not afraid of the TLM as much as I’m quite happy with the NO.
 
thechrismyster said:
any wonder i’ve had about attending a TLM have been whisked away and quelched quite successfully by some of the people on Catholic Answers who participate in the TLM and post here… I hear the words that the TLM is for the glory of God, but in the time i’ve been here, i wonder about that, i’ve seen no evidence among TLM participants that the liturgy is the crux of their worship… clothes, coverings, posture, gesture… it seems that the legalistic underpinnings on ‘doing it right’ overshadow the NO… simply doing it.
I don’t think the TLM people look down on other Catholics… a lot of the TLM come off as very smug, i don’t bother getting upset by that, its probably that attitude is simply a shadow of a bigger personality issue… i think that people who go out of their way to be disobedient to the Second Vatican Council that they look down on the NO mass and think the traditional way is the ‘better’ way are showing pride and disobedience to the wisdom of The Catholic Church who implemented changes for a reason that may not have anything to do with ‘changing’ rather, may have been more to expose those that follow the orders of the Magesterium and those that follow the orders of their own comfort.

The TLM lost its sparkle to me because of these forums. I realized i’m not afraid of the TLM as much as I’m quite happy with the NO.
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👍 Took the words right out of my mouth, errr the keystrokes right out of my fingers or something like that.🙂
 
I don’t know if I’m neccesarily “afraid” to go, but since I was not raised Catholic, I don’t feel any sense of loss for the TLM.

My mom told me that the Catholics used to hold their services in Latin, and she always suspected that that was because the Bishops didn’t want people to understand their faith. She told me that some people missed the Latin Mass. I couldn’t understand why that would be. She said she didn’t know, but she felt it was because those Catholics didn’t care if they understood the Mass or what their faith taught.

Now that I’m Catholic, I know that people who go to the TLM do understand their faith. And I wouldn’t mind going to the TLM, although I don’t have anything to cover my head.

Still, I don’t know if I like the idea of getting completly attached to the TLM. I remember reading a story in the paper of people who didn’t like the NO, so they started attending it at a church that performed it without the permission of the Bishop. That bothered me. Plus, I am happy with my parish, and the way we perform the Novus Ordo.
 
Windmill said:
was the pope smug when he wrote this as Josef Cardinal Ratzinger?

Cardinal Ratzinger (Pp Benedict) and his thoughts on the current way Mass is celebrated
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“On the one hand, we have a liturgy which has degenerated so that it has become a show which, with momentary success for the group of liturgical fabricators, strives to render religion interesting in the wake of the frivolities of fashion and seductive moral maxims”.

Pretty much sums up some of the NO Masses I’ve been to.
 
“On the one hand, we have a liturgy which has degenerated so that it has become a show which, with momentary success for the group of liturgical fabricators, strives to render religion interesting in the wake of the frivolities of fashion and seductive moral maxims”.

Pretty much sums up some of the ideas put forth by SOME TLM advocates who value form over function. Mantillas over humility, as it were.

works both ways! neat, huh?
 
thechrismyster said:
Pretty much sums up some of the ideas put forth by SOME TLM advocates who value form over function. Mantillas over humility, as it were.

works both ways! neat, huh?
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Oh boy… you know ‘some’ TLM advocates on the forum think this how?

I wouldn’t put words into people’s mouthes if I were you.
 
i’d say that nothing is really being fabricated by traditional-minded catholics. it’s been around for 1500 years.

as far as form over function, i’d recommend you read ratzinger’s book, spirit of the liturgy. it addresses this idea very well.
 
thechrismyster said:
“On the one hand, we have a liturgy which has degenerated so that it has become a show which, with momentary success for the group of liturgical fabricators, strives to render religion interesting in the wake of the frivolities of fashion and seductive moral maxims”.

Pretty much sums up some of the ideas put forth by SOME TLM advocates who value form over function. Mantillas over humility, as it were.
works both ways! neat, huh?
Click to expand...
You ask, so I answer:
No, I think that is irrelevant & if it were, then shallow or superficial, and even Protestant.
A Mantilla, like nearly every practice in Traditional Catholicism is an outward sign of an inward or invisible reality.
The mantilla IS an act of humility, just as the Church has always taught. Removing it is an act of emancipation, revolt, or overthrow, not only of the practice, but the inward reality.
In the TLM, we are GOD centered. The “community centered” is a distant second if at all. The mantilla is because of the Angels & the person wearing it is expecting to meet, not the Pope, the Bishop, the President, or the emperor, but the King & Creator of the universe, and Redeemer of their Soul, NOT their neighbor!
So, the mantilla says all that outwardly TO GOD, not their fellow participants. They are more or less invisible.
The NO mentality is “well, God knows our inward disposition, so the outward signs of it are superfluous.”
I remind you taking that mindset to its logical conclusion; why genuflect, kneel, fold ones hands, bow before the Eucharist, bless one’s self, say prayers aloud, light candles, have a procession, Travel the Stations of the Cross, place flowers, have an Icon and pray in front of it, sprinkle holy water, anoint with oils, use precious metals in the ciborium & chalice, and on and on.
Wait, come to think of it, the majority of NO don’t do any of that anymore.
Never mind. You wouldn’t understand.
 
TNT said:
You ask, so I answer:
No, I think that is irrelevant & if it were, then shallow or superficial, and even Protestant.
A Mantilla is, like nearly every practice in Traditional Catholicism is an outward sign of an inward or invisible reality.
The mantilla IS an act of humility, just as the Church has always taught. Removing it is an act of emancipation, revolt, or overthrow, not only of the practice, but the inward reality.
In the TLM, we are GOD centered. The “community centered” is a distant second if at all. The mantilla is because of the Angels & the person wearing it is expecting to meet, not the Pope, the Bishop, the President, or the emperor, but the King & Creator of the universe, and Redeemer of their Soul.
So, the mantilla says all that outwardly TO GOD, not their fellow participants. They are more or less invisible.
The NO mentality is “well, God knows our inward disposition, so the outward signs of it are superfluous.”
I remind you taking that mindset to its logical conclusion; why genuflect, kneel, fold ones hands, bow before the Eucharist, bless one’s self, say prayers aloud, light candles, have a procession, Travel the Stations of the Cross, place flowers, have an Icon and pray in front of it, sprinkle holy water, anoint with oils, use precious metals in the ciborium & chalice, and on and on.
Wait, come to think of it, the majority of NO don’t do any of that anymore.
Never mind. You wouldn’t understand.
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Nicely said, TNT. Where were you when we had the heated head covering thread? 😉
 
i think puritanism has been seeping into the church. it denies sacramental ideas about matter and its use in our salvation. this is why you see a “poo-poo’ing” of holy water, an egalitarianism with regards to priests and laity (even though the priest is ontologically changed at ordination), a minimalism with regards to liturgical forms and architecture, and a turning to contemporary forms of worship while shunning the “sacred treasury of hymns” that Vatican II called to be preserved. in its more extreme forms, you see a denial of transubstantiation and confession to a priest.

the underlying idea behind puritanism is the protestant doctrine of “total depravity”, which sees matter as corrupt and incapable of having any good whatsoever. the puritans sought to escape matter and be fulfilled in a strictly spiritual sense. this, of course, denies our corporate nature and, of all things, the reality of the incarnation (God the spirit becoming matter to redeem mankind). while many loyal catholics wouldn’t adhere to this logical conclusion of puritanism, some verge on accepting these ideas which have infected our entire american society.

Dr. John Rao, PhD, gives a great talk on this:

The Barren Harvest of Protestantism

note, I am not saying anyone here espouses these beliefs, but we must be careful about reducing liturgical actions to mere externals.
 
I really struggle to understand why and how people can so love the TLM. For the first 35 years of my life we had the 400 year old Mass of Trent and than we changed to the NO in English. I have tried an old time Latin Mass a couple of times since and am totally not fascinated. If I need a fix of foreign language and classical music there is always the opera and some fine orchestral music out there. Not saying some folks shouldn’t really like that TLM. Just saying I really can’t relate. The other aspect of the TLM discussion I have trouble grasping is the statements thqt it was THE Catholic Mass for 2000 years. To the best of my knowledge it is the Mass standardized at the Council of Trent which occurred no where near 2000 years ago. Puzzled? Yes I am.
 
rwoehmke said:
I really struggle to understand why and how people can so love the TLM. For the first 35 years of my life we had the 400 year old Mass of Trent and than we changed to the NO in English. I have tried an old time Latin Mass a couple of times since and am totally not fascinated. If I need a fix of foreign language and classical music there is always the opera and some fine orchestral music out there. Not saying some folks shouldn’t really like that TLM. Just saying I really can’t relate. The other aspect of the TLM discussion I have trouble grasping is the statements thqt it was THE Catholic Mass for 2000 years. To the best of my knowledge it is the Mass standardized at the Council of Trent which occurred no where near 2000 years ago. Puzzled? Yes I am.
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Then you are excused & dismissed. Thank you for your insights & educating us on the age of the TLM.
BTW:
Before you go,
Exactly what Mass Rubrics were being used by PP-V in say 1540AD?
Ok, What were the rubrics of the Roman Mass in 850AD?
 
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