Afraid to go to TLM?

[valient_Lucy]

I remind you taking that mindset to its logical conclusion; why genuflect, kneel, fold ones hands, bow before the Eucharist, bless one’s self, say prayers aloud, light candles, have a procession, Travel the Stations of the Cross, place flowers, have an Icon and pray in front of it, sprinkle holy water, anoint with oils, use precious metals in the ciborium & chalice, and on and on.
Wait, come to think of it, the majority of NO don’t do any of that anymore.

My parish is NO, and we do all of the above.

 

[Indyann]

My parish is NO, and we do all of the above.

As do mine (my home parish and my adopted one) Plus 24/7 adoration.

 

[kage_ar]

As do mine (my home parish and my adopted one) Plus 24/7 adoration.

Same for my Parish

I also have to say, while the TLM is offered withing driving distance for me, I have been “scared off” by some of the posters here. I’m afraid my teen son with his long hair and my wearing slacks would make us unwelcome. Perhaps it will come back to one of our hometown Parishes, and since the folks here already KNOW us, we will feel welcome to attend.

 

[Windmill]

i think rwoehmke was being genuine in the post, TNT. i think you should ease up, bro.

the TLM was standardized by Pope St. Great in the 500’s, and has undergone continual adjustments throughout the ages. however, these adjustments were oftentimes so minute that only a liturgical scholar could perceive the small changes. “tridentine” is a misnomer, since none of the old masses offered are from the missal of the 1500’s when Trent was convened. most sue the 1962 missal.

kage , i hope that you may reconsider attending a TLM in the future. i am nowhere near a TLM, so i am a little jealous. it takes a few times to get used to it, so if you ever do decide to go, don’t worry if you’re disoriented at first. plus, you may underestimate how your son will respond to the environment. many traditional movements are composed primarily of younger people who have fallen in love with the old mass.

realize, too, that those that post on this board are some of the more outspoken members of the Church. also, many traditionalists get persecuted for their preferences, and so they are always on the defense when it comes to public discourse.

 

[Windmill]

my typing has gone awry again.

most people USE the missal of 1962

 

[paramedicgirl]

i think rwoehmke was being genuine in the post, TNT. i think you should ease up, bro.

the TLM was standardized by Pope St. Great in the 500’s, and has undergone continual adjustments throughout the ages. however, these adjustments were oftentimes so minute that only a liturgical scholar could perceive the small changes. “tridentine” is a misnomer, since none of the old masses offered are from the missal of the 1500’s when Trent was convened. most sue the 1962 missal.

kage , i hope that you may reconsider attending a TLM in the future. i am nowhere near a TLM, so i am a little jealous. it takes a few times to get used to it, so if you ever do decide to go, don’t worry if you’re disoriented at first. plus, you may underestimate how your son will respond to the environment. many traditional movements are composed primarily of younger people who have fallen in love with the old mass.

realize, too, that those that post on this board are some of the more outspoken members of the Church. also, many traditionalists get persecuted for their preferences, and so they are always on the defense when it comes to public discourse.

Ya don’t say???

 

[AJV]

i think rwoehmke was being genuine in the post, TNT. i think you should ease up, bro.

the TLM was standardized by Pope St. Great in the 500’s, and has undergone continual adjustments throughout the ages. however, these adjustments were oftentimes so minute that only a liturgical scholar could perceive the small changes. “tridentine” is a misnomer, since none of the old masses offered are from the missal of the 1500’s when Trent was convened. most use the 1962 missal.

Just my opinion Windmill, bit I think the changes to the Mass from the time of St. Gregory the Great are any but minute.

 

[AJV]

Then you are excused & dismissed. Thank you for your insights & educating us on the age of the TLM.
BTW:
Before you go,
Exactly what Mass Rubrics were being used by PP-V in say 1540AD?
Ok, What were the rubrics of the Roman Mass in 850AD?

Which ones do you want? Will the Ordo Romanus I do?

 

[Windmill]

AJV,

just to make sure we are on the same page…i’m not including the changes after V2. i’m referring of the changes up to the 1962 missal.

there were changes to the order of holy week in 1955, if i’m not mistaken. that was pretty major.

i think most traditional catholics would agree that a priest in the decades immediately preceding Pp St Gregory could walk into a MAss offerred according to the 1962 missal and feel at home. were he to walk into a typical NO mass, he would not.

 

[kage_ar]

kage , i hope that you may reconsider attending a TLM in the future. i am nowhere near a TLM, so i am a little jealous. it takes a few times to get used to it, so if you ever do decide to go, don’t worry if you’re disoriented at first. plus, you may underestimate how your son will respond to the environment. many traditional movements are composed primarily of younger people who have fallen in love with the old mass.

realize, too, that those that post on this board are some of the more outspoken members of the Church. also, many traditionalists get persecuted for their preferences, and so they are always on the defense when it comes to public discourse.

Oh, my 16 year old son wouldl LOVE it, he is the kid who cringes at the music in many Parishes, likes his music at home to be Rock and Roll but his Mass to be incense and bells with a chior and no hand holding.

Problem is, he has very long hair - and he does not wear ties. I have worn one skirt in the past 4 years, I wear dress slacks to work and to every “formal” event. From what I read here, DH would be the only one who would not booted at the door for dress code violations

 

[Karin]

Oh, my 16 year old son wouldl LOVE it, he is the kid who cringes at the music in many Parishes, likes his music at home to be Rock and Roll but his Mass to be incense and bells with a chior and no hand holding.

Problem is, he has very long hair - and he does not wear ties. I have worn one skirt in the past 4 years, I wear dress slacks to work and to every “formal” event. From what I read here, DH would be the only one who would not booted at the door for dress code violations

so go as is…

 

[AJV]

AJV,

just to make sure we are on the same page…i’m not including the changes after V2. i’m referring of the changes up to the 1962 missal.

there were changes to the order of holy week in 1955, if i’m not mistaken. that was pretty major.

i think most traditional catholics would agree that a priest in the decades immediately preceding Pp St Gregory could walk into a MAss offerred according to the 1962 missal and feel at home. were he to walk into a typical NO mass, he would not.

I’m not really sure about the last statement: though I agree that the Mass did organically evolve.

At the time of St. Gregory:

Everything unto the Introit was not there
The Kyrie could be replaced by a litany
the Gloria was not in use as extensively as now: mostly reserved for bishops
The Creed was also not said
There were no Offertory prayers at all except for the Secret. It was not preceded by Orate Fratres
The Canon was mostly like it is in the TLM except that the certain parts were not said on Sundays.
The Lord’s Prayer and embolism is mostly like it is in the TLM
The Angus Dei may have been repeated more times.
There were no private prayers for the priest’s communion and no ablution prayers (though one of those in the TLM “Quod Ore” is ancient but was used for something else)
Postcommunion followed by Ite Missa est. The blessing, as is evident from its position, was only introduced later especially for priests.
No Last Gospel

Besides the whole ceremonial was different. As requested by TNT, I will try and post the instructions given for that time, and I think then it will be more evident. I think except for the Canon (barring all the ceremonies) a priest of St. Gregory would find it quite different.

If one went from before St. Gregory there would be changes in the Kyrie, the position of the Our Father, and depending how early (like back to Pope Innocent), even in the Canon and the Offertory (because some say that at that time, based on his letter to the bishop of Gubbio, the commemoration for living and the dead was made at the Offertory) .

 

[Windmill]

Oh, my 16 year old son wouldl LOVE it, he is the kid who cringes at the music in many Parishes, likes his music at home to be Rock and Roll but his Mass to be incense and bells with a chior and no hand holding.

Problem is, he has very long hair - and he does not wear ties. I have worn one skirt in the past 4 years, I wear dress slacks to work and to every “formal” event. From what I read here, DH would be the only one who would not booted at the door for dress code violations

LOL! nice post.

have him tie up his hair in a pony tail & wear a polo shirt. as for yourself, just do what they expect in st peter’s basilica in rome: no shorts . if it’s good enough to pass muster with the swiss guard, why not the ushers at a TLM parish.

 

[Michelle2006]

kage_ar

Please do not feel intimidated to go to an indult TLM. What you have read here about the intolerance of the people who attend them has not been my experience at all. My boyfriend and I drive 35 miles each way to go to one every Sunday. Many women wear slacks and there are certainly young men with long hair present and NOBODY thinks the worse of them. In fact, the diversity and number of young people who attend was surprising to me. In the parish I attend only about 75% of the women wear headcoverings, although I have been to others where more like 95% did. The attire worn in your area of the country may be vary, I can only speak from my own experience. But it is not about that. It is about experiencing a the Mass in a truely moving and reverent way.

 

[kage_ar]

Wind and Michelle -

Thank you! As converts, our family has yet to have experienced the TLM. Heck, I’ve BEEN to the Vatican and that was not intimidating, I would have no problem with wearing a headcovering to the TLM. This summer I will muster the courage and make the drive (during CCD we are committed at our Parish).

 

[drforjc]

AJV

It seems to me I recall Fortescue writing that a papal mass in the 4th or 5th cent. would be familiar to us (he was writing in the early 20th cent. so he is referring to the TLM) despite the differences you list. I’ll have to check it out and see if I can find the quote to verify if my memory is accurate.

 

[AJV]

AJV

It seems to me I recall Fortescue writing that a papal mass in the 4th or 5th cent. would be familiar to us (he was writing in the early 20th cent. so he is referring to the TLM) despite the differences you list. I’ll have to check it out and see if I can find the quote to verify if my memory is accurate.

This one perhaps? It’s from the artcile he wrote for the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

We may say safely that a modern Latin Catholic who could be carried back to Rome in the early seventh century would – while missing some features to which he is accustomed – find himself on the whole quite at home with the service he saw there.

I would like to add 2 things, though (that is, if this is what you were referring to): one is that it would not necessarily be vice versa, and the second is that it seems to me that he is principally speaking of the (relatively) unchanged Canon (which forms the heart of the Mass). In the previous sentence he says:

Benedict XIV says that “no pope has added to, or changed the Canon since St. Gregory” (De SS. Missæ sacrificio, p. 162). There has been an important change since, the partial amalgamation of the old Roman Rite with Gallican features; but this hardly affects the Canon.

As Fortescue himself notes in the article about the 5th century Roman practise, it was different from St. Gregory’s in a number of details. That too, he takes the contrary view (also held by other eminents) of Pope Innocent’s letter to the bishop of Gubbio **, that views the intercessions for the living and the dead as already coming within the Canon:if the other view is taken, then the differences there are greater.

** De nominibus vero recitandis, antequam preces sacerdos faciat, atque eorum oblationes, quorum nomina recitanda sunt, sua oratione commendet, quam superfluum sit et ipse pro tua prudentia recognoscis—prius ergo oblationes sunt commendandae, ac tunc eorum nomina, quorum sunt oblationes, edicenda, ut inter sacra mysteria nominentur, non inter alia quæ ante præmittimus, ut ipsis mysteriis viam futuris precibus aperiamus

 

[drforjc]

AJV, that sounds like the one I was thinking of… but obviously I was off by a couple of centuries.

A most interesting book; I’d like to read Jungmann too but the price is way too high.

 

[jmcrae]

My parish is NO, and we do all of the above.

So do we.

By the way, as regards the TLM, real life is a lot better than the forums - you would be welcome no matter what you’re wearing as long as it’s decent.

If you feel as though you would stick out without a head covering, just put a nice scarf over your head - one lady that goes regularly to the one I’ve been to just wears her baseball cap - as far as I can tell, no one’s ever been offended by that.

 

[Windmill]

Wind and Michelle -

Thank you! As converts, our family has yet to have experienced the TLM. Heck, I’ve BEEN to the Vatican and that was not intimidating, I would have no problem with wearing a headcovering to the TLM. This summer I will muster the courage and make the drive (during CCD we are committed at our Parish).

if you go, let us know what you thought. i have fallen in love with the TLM via internet, magazines, and mp3 talks from www.keepthefaith.org my only experience with a latin mass are the couple of latin NO Masses that our schola cantorum has sung at.

man, i’m jealous of you ppl that are close to one of these.