Afraid to go to TLM?

[jmcrae]

They dramatically expose almost the entirety of the lower half of the feminine form. Sometimes even the vulva are exposed. Undergarments are routinely exposed. It’s no use saying that your pants aren’t like that, because your pants are an example. The younger women see no reason to dress appropriately if their elders are failing in this regard.

You are forgetting that exactly the same thing is true of men who wear pants. Men who wear extremely tight pants also risk outlining their genitalia, but this isn’t considered a good reason to forbid all men from wearing all pants, ever.

If the risk of showing the form of one’s thighs and genitalia is the reason for forbidding the wearing of every style of pants, then everyone everywhere should be forbidden to wear pants - not just women.

After all, women have to look at men just as much as men have to look at women. We are all fallen creatures, and equally liable to be tempted.

Men are not so much more easily drawn astray than women - and if men really are so much weaker than women, then perhaps we should cloister them away into all-male convents, and forbid them from ever coming into the presence of any women at all, other than their wives, in order to protect them from themselves.

But I really don’t think this is necessary, because I believe that men are capable of the same kind of self-control that women are.

 

[ctos]

Unreality rules supreme in this topic, always. Men and women are not identical, and do not have identical roles. And of course, men should not wear skin-tight clothes.

There is a drastic, serious problem with a lack of female modesty today. Women wearing pants are directly contributing to that problem. The clergy need to do more to protect principles of modesty, but they refuse to do so, probably for fear of offending the layfolk. My point is: at least at a traditionalist chapel, one is not exposed to underpants sticking out of tight jeans, thighs and buttocks clearly outlined, glimpses of back and stomach, and even bra straps sticking out. People are dressing like slobs, and nobody wants to do anything about it. When the problem is pointed out, people get defensive and go directly into denial mode thinking.

Some women are ‘afraid to go to the TLM’ because they might have to improve their style of dress. Some men are irritated by the Novus Ordo because of the very impoverished style of dress found there. At some point, reality will have to be addressed. There should be nothing that drives people away from the Novus Ordo, because the Church had good reasons for instituting changes to the liturgy. Anything we can do to improve the atmosphere will help dissuade people from leaving for saner terrain.

 

[jmcrae]

There is a drastic, serious problem with a lack of female modesty today.

Wearing skirts does not lead to modesty, though, and indeed, leads directly away from it, by causing the woman to be perceived as an object of lust and sexual gratification, instead of as a human being created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[ctos]

Wearing skirts does not lead to modesty, though, and indeed, leads directly away from it, by causing the woman to be perceived as an object of lust and sexual gratification, instead of as a human being created in the image and likeness of God.

No, no. Wearing a skirt correctly differentiates a woman, and covers her distinct physical properties so that they will not be on display for all to examine. Try to take it from a healthy distance: for centuries women and men dressed differently. Now, suddenly, right at a time when immorality is absolutely rampant, women are dressing almost exactly like men. Women must return to dressing in a distinct manner. And of course the skirt cannot be itself immodest.

But again, there is no answer. There seems to be no way to approach women on this question. They just do whatever they want to do. It’s very sad. Young women dress in the most appalling manner imaginable. And the responsible older women simply refuse to take the problem seriously, and to be considerate of the example they are setting.

Pastors must do more to promote modesty, and sex role differentiation. Failure in this arena is a primary cause of bleeding toward trad chapels. Again, nobody should feel forced to seek out a TLM. They do so because so much about the Novus Ordo is just not conducive to sanctification–and it has nothing to do with the liturgy itself. It has to do with ‘what all goes on’ in the general atmosphere.

 

[Margaret33]

You are forgetting that exactly the same thing is true of men who wear pants. Men who wear extremely tight pants also risk outlining their genitalia, but this isn’t considered a good reason to forbid all men from wearing all pants, ever.

Women’s eyes do not automatically gravitate towards the privates of a man they way a man’s do. In addition, Men’s primary stimulation is visual, a woman’s is intellectual and emotional.

Men are not so much more easily drawn astray than women - and if men really are so much weaker than women, then perhaps we should cloister them away into all-male convents, and forbid them from ever coming into the presence of any women at all, other than their wives, in order to protect them from themselves.

But I really don’t think this is necessary, because I believe that men are capable of the same kind of self-control that women are.

I’m sorry, I just disagree. It has been proven time and time again that men think about sex a great deal more often than women, and that they have significantly less self control when it comes to carnal desires. While you may have great self control, and yes, some men do, they are the exception rather than the norm. I don’t wish to argue, just presenting my opinion.

 

[jmcrae]

Women’s eyes do not automatically gravitate towards the privates of a man they way a man’s do. In addition, Men’s primary stimulation is visual, a woman’s is intellectual and emotional.

That’s a stereotype, and in my case, anyway, it’s not accurate. People who are visual learners are sexually stimulated by what they see - and I happen to be a woman who is also a visual learner.

I’m sorry, I just disagree. It has been proven time and time again that men think about sex a great deal more often than women, and that they have significantly less self control when it comes to carnal desires. While you may have great self control, and yes, some men do, they are the exception rather than the norm. I don’t wish to argue, just presenting my opinion.

I’m actually a woman - but I think it’s actually very insulting to men to think that they really have this level of lack of self-control, and furthermore, I don’t think anyone actually believes such a thing - if you really thought that your father, husband, son, or brother was in this condition, would you allow them into your house, or would you pack them off straight away to an insane asylum, in order to protect yourself?

Men have all the self-control they need to run our governments and our major corporations. It stands to reason that they can also control their bodies and their sexual responses in the same way that we women do.

 

[ctos]

Over the past 50 years, pastors have been extremely irresponsible in this area. People have a very poor understanding at present about the need to preserve modesty and protect chastity. The way the young dress proves beyond a doubt that the problem is a severe one. Women who have a sense of responsibility need to think this one through logically, and have the sensitivity to dress in a distinct, modest manner. At present, we are headed straight for locust-ville (Apoc. 9:7).

 

[Margaret33]

As I stated earlier, I was not intending upon an argument and still do not wish to argue. Stereotype, no, proven by numerous studies on the psychological and physiological differences between men and women. You are entitled to your opinion, I am just basing what I say on the facts.

Learning and sexual stimulation are two different concepts.

I don’t happen to believe it is a big deal to wear pants myself, but it seems that some women ask but then don’t want to hear the answers. I wear pants to work, skirts rarely, and jeans when I’m out. But to church, I wear a skirt or a dress. And the reasons behind it are because that is what I was raised to do and that is what the church dictated at the time . And the reasons it was felt to be important (back then) were outlined in a few links I left. And it’s one hour out of my life every week, a small sacrifice, for me, in the grand scheme of things to show my respect.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I really didn’t want to weigh in on this…Look, I was a kid before Vatican II and the whole kit and kaboodle culminated by the time I graduated from a Catholic high school in 1969.

Thus, this is what I have observed with my own eyes. My mother and my younger sister dressed “to the nines” to go to Mass. Hats, gloves (oh, y’all haven’t even touched on gloves!). Pants?!!! Perish the thought in those days.

And then in 1960, here in south Louisiana we had, dah, dah, dah, the influx of Cuban refugees who brought us the lace chaplet and the lace mantilla! Oooooooohhhh, wow, watcha gonna do with that Mamma and Sis? Being sensible Irish Catholics in a Creole city, they adopted it - big time.

DW says to remind you that you couldn’t receive Communion in a sleeveless dress in those days. Audrey Hepburn wore sleeveless dresses, how shocking.

If, as an act of personal piety, y’all choose to dress like Audrey Hepburn, be my guest. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings to you ladies, but, quite honestly, unless you’re running around in a halter and hot pants, quite frankly, my mind is on Our Lord not you. And if you were to attend Mass either NO or TLM in said costume, I’d look for hidden cameras and think that it was something to appear on You Tube.

Personally, I don’t care what you wear as long as it is respectable. We have tourists who come through our cathedral during the summer off the steamboats on the Mississippi. Women and men wear decent shorts and knit shirts. I’m not the least offended nor am I titilated. Nor do I think this is inappropriate apparel.

If you feel you need to dress to the nines to attend a TLM well, I understand your piety. And that is all it is - your piety. I repeat again what I said before - it’s not about your earthly raiment, it’s about the raiment of your soul. And I believe Our Lord has spoken conclusively about the raiment of our souls.

 

[Jehanne_Darc]

Catching up on these posts and grinning

I actually have a chapel cap that I crocheted, just sitting there in my basket, waiting for me to have a chance to wear it.

WHat is a chapel cap? I am 33 with 4 little kids. I am more of a casual dresser, that is I do dress up for mass, but my clothes are preppy style lots of Eddie Bauer. I also can’t see myself wearing a veil, my baby would keep taking it off. A cap sounds kind of cute. Can you describe it?

By the way ChrisMyster:

Boy was I disapointed to read your tirade. I had no idea you felt that way.

I attend the TLM because I love the mass and the community. I find them uplifting, warm, funny, welcoming, courageous etc. I love our FSSP priests, each one we have had has been a gem of a different colour. We may have the odd person who is stuck up and would attend the SSPX if there were no FSSP and they disaprove cause I don’t wear the chapel veil and belong to a movement that has NO masses, but on the whole we are a good crowd. We have all sorts of people, long haired, Indian, tattood, handicapped, veiled, unveiled, 11 kids, no kids etc.

 

[ctos]

If you feel you need to dress to the nines to attend a TLM well, I understand your piety.

I think the question of how one comports oneself in broader society is more critical to evaluate. Christians should not have a divided life: modest and correctly differentiated on Sunday, and a worldly person Monday through Saturday.

 

[brotherhrolf]

WHat is a chapel cap?

The chaplet or chapel cap is a lace circle about 8" in diameter which covers a woman’s head and can be folded into a neat package to fit into one’s purse. My mother and sister always carried one.

Ctos? When I was a child, there were norms for women to go shopping in downtown New Orleans. My mother and my sister would not dream of going shopping on Canal St. in 1960 without having an appropriate hat and gloves. Happily, that society does not exist any longer. Attendance at Mass should not hinge upon some sort of “approved” dress code - otherwise you get the dreaded “fashion police”. (read that in the context of scriptural Pharisees). Women wear shorts. Men wear shorts. Like I said, it’s hot down here. We have the steamboats with Catholic tourists on board who stop in Baton Rouge and attend Mass at our cathedral. I have absolutely no problem with them attending Mass in shorts and knit shirts. They’re on vacation! If a person dresses conservatively and modestly, I don’t have a problem.

Where are y’all coming up with all of this? I just don’t see it at my cathedral parish in Baton Rouge. I haven’t seen it with all the tourists in New Orleans when I’ve gone to Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in NO.

How would y’all feel about the young lady I have noticed for several years who attends Midnight Mass in medieval garb? She’s dressed perfectly fine for 11th century Anglo-Saxon England. I’m not making this up. Does this meet your criteria?

 

[Margaret33]

Attendance at Mass should not hinge upon some sort of “approved” dress code - otherwise you get the dreaded “fashion police”. (read that in the context of scriptural Pharisees). Women wear shorts. Men wear shorts. Like I said, it’s hot down here. We have the steamboats with Catholic tourists on board who stop in Baton Rouge and attend Mass at our cathedral. I have absolutely no problem with them attending Mass in shorts and knit shirts. They’re on vacation! If a person dresses conservatively and modestly, I don’t have a problem.

Where are y’all coming up with all of this? I just don’t see it at my cathedral parish in Baton Rouge. I haven’t seen it with all the tourists in New Orleans when I’ve gone to Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in NO.

How would y’all feel about the young lady I have noticed for several years who attends Midnight Mass in medieval garb? She’s dressed perfectly fine for 11th century Anglo-Saxon England. I’m not making this up. Does this meet your criteria?

Incase “ya’ll” was addressed to me as well… please leave me out of this from now on. If you’ll look back to my first post on this, my original post was in answer to someone asking if the position had any basis, so I posted some links from those in the Church as examples, stated it was a bit ‘hardline’ as opinions go, but that they did have a basis. I responded again because, naturally, statements that were being made required it the explanation that i wasn’t basing anything on stereotypes, but what i had posted and the facts.

I don’t recall ever ‘policing’ anyone or making them feel less than with anything I wrote … if they did, that had nothing to do with me but what they misconstrued. Sometimes people ask questions in forums and only want to hear an opinion which fits their own so they automatically get angry and attack your position. You don’t have experience with this? I would think you do, but I guess I’m wrong. Life’s too short, judging others isn’t up to me… and I believe in doing unto others.

I live in a hot tourist town on the ocean as well, Charleston is muggy and we get Cruises coming in to port during the Spring and Summer. And so they usually wear sundresses or dress shorts and sandals. I was talking about how I dress and at no point told anyone else what they should.

Consider this my lesson learned, it just doesn’t make sense for me to offer a different perspective again, when it’s clear that only a agreement with what is being asked is wanted. Have a good night Brotherhrolf, sleep well.

 

[TNT]

Re:

…Where are y’all coming up with all of this? I just don’t see it at my cathedral parish in Baton Rouge. I haven’t seen it with all the tourists in New Orleans when I’ve gone to Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in NO.

NOW we know why Katrina visited Ya’ll an not us’ns.

 

[Uxor]

Ii think that people who go out of their way to be disobedient to the Second Vatican Council that they look down on the NO mass and think the traditional way is the ‘better’ way are showing pride and disobedience to the wisdom of The Catholic Church who implemented changes for a reason that may not have anything to do with ‘changing’ rather, may have been more to expose those that follow the orders of the Magesterium and those that follow the orders of their own comfort.

I disagree with your quote. Have you ever read the 16 documents of Vatican II? Everyone that reads them whether they claim they support the Faith, whether they teach error, modernists see revolution…all agree there is no solemn defination that a Catholic has to accept as an article of Faith. None of the documents are marked by the language used in infallible defination. It was a pastorial council.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I must say that I was absolutely floored when reading this thread at work this morning. But it goes to show you how the written word can be misinterpreted.

Magaret33, I can see (in hindsight) how you might think that I was singling you out but actually what I was thinking is “What is going on in their (y’all) parishes? Can people be dressing that badly or provocatively elsewhere?”

In that context, my answer was “not that I’ve seen”. I can’t think of any time, church, or place I’ve attended Mass across south Louisiana where anyone has dressed suggestively such has been described on this thread. I simply have no frame of reference for this - hence my comment “where are y’all coming up with this?” The closest I can come to that are the liturgical dancers I’ve had to suffer through singing for diocesan events. And I was mostly nauseated by that display.

My concern on this is that the orignal post on this thread is that people are “afraid of the TLM”. Then followed a whole list of posters focusing on “proper dress for the TLM”. I even stated that “I didn’t want to weigh in on this”. Then there was the flurry of “pants vs. dress” comments.

So, I apologize if it seems my comments were singling you out. Such was not my intention and to be frank, I was just going with the general flow and not paying specific attention to specific posts.

Charleston is the nearest place in my heart to my beloved New Orleans. I have never felt so much “at home” as when I visited Charleston. That having been said, at age 55 and a child of the 50’s, I have to presume that the matrons of Charleston are just like the matrons of New Orleans and Baton Rouge (I am NOT stating that you are a matron!). I simply don’t want people turned off from going to a TLM because they are worried about wearing white before Easter or after Labor Day.

 

[brotherhrolf]

It is highly unlikely that a hurricane would reach the DFW area in hurricane or tropical storm strength. Eighty percent of the City of New Orleans is still in ruins. I have family living in FEMA trailers in front of their destroyed homes. [Edited by moderator]

 

[Margaret33]

I must say that I was absolutely floored when reading this thread at work this morning.

I’m sorry that my response was a little more heated that I wanted it to be.

Can people be dressing that badly or provocatively elsewhere?"

Not always, no… I’m not a prude by any means, but I live in a college town and sometimes I seen younger women showing a lot more skin than I think is appropriate for church, and I just think it distracts for the whole reason we’re there and becomes too much of a competition about who can turn the most heads … instead of why we’re actually supposed to be there. (wow, if that doesn’t make me sound like an old church marm, nothing will!) lol

My concern on this is that the orignal post on this thread is that people are “afraid of the TLM”.

I realized this in hindsight, and I definitely didn’t want those who were intimidated to begin with any more reason to be wary of attending the TLM… We all bring out own life experiences into our opinions and I was just trying to express what I was taught to be the best way to dress for mass. That doesn’t in way mean that I dress with long skirts down to my ankles or ultra-conservative, just that I think it’s best to think first before putting on the mini-skirt, tight jeans or pants, and wearing something that shows cleavage or has the fabric equivalent of a tube top with spaghetti straps. Yes, it’s hot here, but to me that frequently gives people the license of ‘anything goes’… and I just think that a little discretion might be a good idea. It’s just a respect thing with me I guess. (Again, I’m sounding like an old church lady, but hopefully you get what I’m trying to say).

So, I apologize if it seems my comments were singling you out. Such was not my intention and to be frank, I was just going with the general flow and not paying specific attention to specific posts.

I’m sorry as well, truly

I have to presume that the matrons of Charleston are just like the matrons of New Orleans and Baton Rouge (I am NOT stating that you are a matron!).

lol… I didn’t take it that way! And yes, probably. There are a lot of ultra-conservative views in this town… it’s hard being Catholic and even knowing what that means when you are in a state of only 3% Catholics and most of the rest are Southern Baptist… Yes, there are liberals, but not as many in between as I’d like… but that’s probably because I’m from north of Mason-Dixon line

Think a little of the conservative views are rubbing off on me though, it’s hard for it to leave how I was raised behind sometimes and realize it’s a whole new ballgame now… especially when my teenage daughter wants to wear a jean mini-skirt and flip-flops to church and thinks I’m being ridiculous when I tell her to cover up a little and put on shoes that don’t ‘clack’ when she walks down the aisle… I know I’m being very ‘old world’ about the ‘what to wear to church’ thing, and I’m working on finding a happy medium

simply don’t want people turned off from going to a TLM because they are worried about wearing white before Easter or after Labor Day.

Makes sense, I understood where you were coming from when I thought about it for a bit and I apologize if it seemed I took it too personally.

Margaret

 

[brotherhrolf]

Well, we’ve got LSU here although I haven’t been to Christ the King on campus since we were married there back in 78. I might be shocked!

But, I’ve been to my geographical parish which is five miles away - there is no Catholic church in my town - we’re witches doncha know. (No I am not making that up). Didn’t see anything like it there. We drive 25 miles to go to our Cathedral which is a reverent NO parish. And, btw, don’t know if she still sings there but if you attend the Cathedral in Charleston and you have a cantor named Kathleen, she sang with us for years until she got married and moved to Charleston.

Our local indult parish is next door to the cathedral. I haven’t been to the TLM there because Mass is at 9:30 and we sing at the cathedral at 10. But I have been to St. Patrick’s in New Orleans and the people dress, well, normally…

I understand those who wish to honor Our Lord by men wearing coat and tie and women wearing dresses, etc. That’s fine. But it is a slippery slope. I grew up with the TLM. I was an altar boy. I could serve a TLM today. We can’t and shouldn’t expect 1950s behavior from someone who never experienced the culture. We have to face the fact, as I have, that HMC as I knew it up till 1969 is not HMC today.

That seems radical and it is. It is not the same HMC insofar as liturgy or Catholic culture. So, we have this situation where there is this whole generation of baby boomers - some of whom embraced the change and some of whom didn’t. And, now it looks like (please, God) that there is a chance, however slim, that the Holy Father will allow the TLM to be used beyond the indult parishes.

From my perspective, there is nothing “supernatural” about the TLM. On the other hand, as someone of Irish and Cajun ancestry, I know how my ancestors struggled to practice their faith and those struggles were when my ancestors attended a TLM.

The TLM is the Mass of most of our ancestors. I’ve never been to a NO in Latin although I’ve seen them on EWTN. Fifty years ago, any Catholic, anywhere across the world, could go to Mass and participate. I’d like to see that restored and dress, IMHO, should not be a factor.

 

[Margaret33]

Well said

All this aside for a moment, I have a question. I heard it said that a priest does not have to ask permission to do mass in Latin, but he does need to be granted permission to hold it in the vernacular… Do you know if this is true?