Afraid to go to TLM?

[SnorterLuster]

I asked a similiar question in another thread but didn’t get an answer–in 2007 is TLM celebrated in English anywhere on planet Earth?

I don’t know the answer, but I can speculate that there is not an authorized English version said anywhere. If it is a indult parish, they have to say the TLM in Latin. If it is a regular parish, they have to say the N.O. Mass in either Latin or English. I don’t think there is any provision for a priest to experiment with the 1962 rubics of the TLM.

I have seen people post that there is an Episcopalian mass that is essentially the TLM in English, but I don’t know if that is true.

 

[Charleston]

Thanks, Charleston, that’s good to know. St. Josaphat’s is not far from my house (maybe 20 min.), and is very close to a former workplace. I have to say, the Detroit-TLMers have been among the least intimidating of the bunch.

Great Jen,

BTW, the Latin classes actually start tomorrow, per their website:

St. Josaphat’s Introduction to Latin class will begin immediately after the Tridentine Mass (around 11:00 AM) on Sunday, January 28. Participants will learn Latin specifically as it is used in the Sacred Liturgy. Classes will be held in the basement of the Parish Hall on every Sunday on which there is a reception after the Tridentine Mass. This means every Sunday except February 18, March 11, April 22, May 20, and June 24.

Attendees should sign up with instructor Peter Gulewich after Mass, or e-mail tridnews@stjosaphatchurch.org, **but last minute arrivals are welcome. **

In case you don’t have it, St Joe’s website is here:

detroitlatinmass.org/jospht/home.htm

Best, :tiphat:

 

[Windmill]

would you say the average parishioner at a TLM parish is more or less outspoken and judgemental than the radical posters on this forum? based on your answer, i think that should tell you what you can reasonably expect at a TLM parish. they are everyday people.

if you have no idea how they would be, then why are you automatically assuming that they are going to be so mean? i would assume a degree of christian charity among specific folks until proven otherwise. you can’t judge a local congregation by some of the more adamant posters on this international forum.

 

[Charleston]

…i think that should tell you what you can reasonably expect at a TLM parish. they are everyday people.

Good point.

I’ve only been to two TLM (indult) parishes but at both the people there seemed more focused on just praying and savouring the majestic ritual unfolding than looking around scrutinizing others in the pews. ('course that means I was the guy looking around checking out everyone else…hee)

Best, :tiphat:

 

[Adonis33]

Yes. I still haven’t been to one, despite some curiosity. The more time I spend on these boards, the more afraid I am. Besides the fact that I own no head coverings except a knit winter cap, I wear dress pants and sweaters or pant suits to Mass. I don’t own many skirts, and even fewer long ones. I’m not sure I’d be allowed in the door of most TLM parishes, especially since some posters have mentioned their rather strict dress codes, and women in long skirts was definitely a must on at least one code that I remember specifically. I’m also not fond of the idea of doing the wrong thing during the Mass and being judged for it. I’ve had the Order of Mass and the prayers of the NO down pat since I was a child. At least there I don’t have to worry about making a fool of myself. I don’t deal well with people being mean to me over things that I can’t control, so I’m afraid that my trip to a TLM would end up with me crying in my car on the way home.

None of this has happenned at my parish.

 

[SeekerJen]

would you say the average parishioner at a TLM parish is more or less outspoken and judgemental than the radical posters on this forum? based on your answer, i think that should tell you what you can reasonably expect at a TLM parish. they are everyday people.

if you have no idea how they would be, then why are you automatically assuming that they are going to be so mean? i would assume a degree of christian charity among specific folks until proven otherwise. you can’t judge a local congregation by some of the more adamant posters on this international forum.

I said I was afraid to try. I never said it was a rational fear.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know the answer, but I can speculate that there is not an authorized English version said anywhere. If it is a indult parish, they have to say the TLM in Latin. If it is a regular parish, they have to say the N.O. Mass in either Latin or English. I don’t think there is any provision for a priest to experiment with the 1962 rubics of the TLM.

I have seen people post that there is an Episcopalian mass that is essentially the TLM in English, but I don’t know if that is true.

The High Anglican Mass is the TLM in 16th century English - if you can find one that is in union with Rome under the “Anglican use” provision, that would be a possibility - I have no idea how many of these there are, or where, or indeed whether there are any, but it might be worth looking into.

 

[Windmill]

Anglican Use parish do exist. I was a member of one for 3 years. If I had to attend an English mass exclusively, it’d be an Anglican Use Mass.

 

[Sola_Roma]

The High Anglican Mass is the TLM in 16th century English - if you can find one that is in union with Rome under the “Anglican use” provision, that would be a possibility - I have no idea how many of these there are, or where, or indeed whether there are any, but it might be worth looking into.

Is it a direct translation?

 

[aboverubies]

any wonder i’ve had about attending a TLM have been whisked away and quelched quite successfully by some of the people on Catholic Answers who participate in the TLM and post here… I hear the words that the TLM is for the glory of God, but in the time i’ve been here, i wonder about that, i’ve seen no evidence among TLM participants that the liturgy is the crux of their worship… clothes, coverings, posture, gesture… it seems that the legalistic underpinnings on ‘doing it right’ overshadow the NO… simply doing it.
I don’t think the TLM people look down on other Catholics… a lot of the TLM come off as very smug, i don’t bother getting upset by that, its probably that attitude is simply a shadow of a bigger personality issue… i think that people who go out of their way to be disobedient to the Second Vatican Council that they look down on the NO mass and think the traditional way is the ‘better’ way are showing pride and disobedience to the wisdom of The Catholic Church who implemented changes for a reason that may not have anything to do with ‘changing’ rather, may have been more to expose those that follow the orders of the Magesterium and those that follow the orders of their own comfort.

The TLM lost its sparkle to me because of these forums. I realized i’m not afraid of the TLM as much as I’m quite happy with the NO.

What was that favourite phrase of yours’ thechrismyster? …something about “the beast living within…”?

Or the classic “that’s the non-thinking persons way out.”

And how about that other one…“it works both ways.”

Wise words indeed…mind if I borrow them? :ehh:

 

[AJV]

Is it a direct translation?

I know this is overly long but anyway:

1. Broadly speaking there are three main ‘tpyes’ of Anglo-Catholic services.
   “Prayer book Catholic”- the Book of Common Prayer being held as the natural successor to indigenous worship in England. Used with ceremonial based in part on a much simplified ‘Sarum’ ceremonial-actually an “Egnlsih Use”-not really Sarum, but with lots of its trappings.
2. What I call the “mixers”-PrayerBook mixed with the Roman Missal. Roman Missal supplies things like Prayers at the foot of the altar, “Orate Fratres”, Secrets and other things missing form the Anglcian Prayertbook. So for example, a mixture would go somewhat like this:

Prayers at the foot of the altar upto the Intoit (inclusive)-Roman Missal
Kyrie replaced by BCP version of the Ten Commandments.
Gloria (some of the Englsih books place it where it occurs in the 1662 BCP-at the end of the service)
Dialogue before collects-roman Missal
Collect(s)- Anglican if provided, or form the roman Missal
Epistle and Gospel-Anglican if provided, or Roman Missal
Sequence. gradual/Tract/Alleuila- Roman Missal
Munda Cor meum, and dialogue before the Gospel- Roman Missal
Creed
Offetory- divergence here: some provide the Offerotry prayers from the Roman Missal. Others provide and direct also that the Anglcian fixed Prayer for the rulers, clergy, etc. be made-copying Roman custom and saying it softly with only “our only mediator and advocate” out loud (think: “Per omnia saecula saeculorum”)
“The Lord be with you”- Roman Missal
Prefaces- BCP and Roman Missal
The Canon-big divergence here. Variety of Canons from the various Anglican Prayer Books may be found. Possibly the Roman Canon as well but often they stuck to the BCP. This is one division of the 1662 BCP to approximate the Roman Canon with manual gestures added in:

Commemoration of the living and the saints
Manus Super oblata
ALMIGHTY God, our heavenly Father, who of thy tender mercy didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death, until his coming again;

Quam oblationem

Hear us, O merciful Father, we most humbly beseech thee; and grant that we receiving these thy cre+atures of bre+ad and wi+ne, according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ’s holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Bo+dy and Blo+od:
Qui Pride (little funny ‘cause it is “Who in the same NIGHT”)

who, in the same night that he was betrayed, took Bread; and, when he had given + thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, Take, eat,

This is my Body which is given for you:

Do this in remembrance of me.

Simli Modo

Likewise after supper he took the Cup; and, when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of this; for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins: Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me.

Unde et memores
Wherefore LORD and heavenly Father, we thy humble servants entirely desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept th+is o+ur sac+rifice of pra+ise and thanks+giving;

Extensis manibus
Most humbly beseeching thee to grant, that by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we and all thy whole Church may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

Supplices Te Rogamus
And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, ourselves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and lively sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee, that all we, who are partakers of this holy Communion, may be fulfilled with thy grace and heavenly benediction.

Silent Commemoration of the dead
Nobis quoque peccatoribus
And although we be unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service; not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences,
through Jes+us Chr+ist our Lo+rd;

Per Quem
by wh+om, and with who+m, in the uni+ty of the Holy Ghost, all hon+our and glo+ry be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end. Amen.

Whole from the end of the Canon to the Communion of the priest(yes, I know they are not validly ordained, its used in the sense they would) inclusive- Roman Missal
Communioin of the people-Confession, absolution- BCP
Psotcommunion- either Fixed form the BCP or veriabel form the Roman Missal
Concluding Rites until the Last Gospel- Roman Missal except that the blessing might be form the BCP

Typical of the Above books are the American Missal and to a lesser degree, the Anglican Missal

1. Those who used the Roman Missal almost entirely. Typical of this is the English Missal (which however does provide
   (contd.)

 

[AJV]

…supplementary material from the BCP clearly delineated in later versions). Even the people’s versions are arranged exactly like a Roman altar missal except in English (and for the people’s missing the rubrics, etc. in the front).

The one I have has the translation of the Canon as follows (I’ve omitted rubrics, crossings and Per Christum…)

THEREFORE, most merciful Father, through Jesus Christ thy Son Our Lord, We humbly pray and beseech thee, that thou accept and bless these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices, which, first, we offer unto thee for thy holy catholic Church: that thou vouchsafe to keep it in peace, to guard, unite, and govern it throughout the whole world: together with thy servant our Pope N, our bishop N., and all the orthodox, and teachers of the catholic and apostolic faith.

REMEMBER, O Lord, thy servants and handmaids N. and N and all who here around us stand, whose faith is known unto thee and their devotion manifest, for whom we offer unto thee: or who themselves offer unto thee this sacrifice of praise, for themselves, and for all to whom they are bound: for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and safety: and who render their vows unto thee the eternal God, living and true.

UNITING together, and venerating the memory, first of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ : as also of thy blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Batholomew, Matthew, Simon and Thaddeus: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Laurence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian: and of all thy Saints; by whose merits and prayers grant, that in all things we may be defended with the help of thy protection.

THIS oblation, therefore, of our service, as also thy whole family, we beseech thee, O Lord, graciously to accept: and order our days in thy peace, and deliver us from eternal damnation, and bid us to be numbered in the flock of thine elect.

WHICH oblation do thou, O God, we beseech thee, vouchsafe in all things to make blessed, approved, ratified, reasonable, and acceptable: that it may become for us the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son,our Lord Jesus Christ.

WHO the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes lifted up to heaven to thee, God, his almighty Father, giving thanks to thee, he blessed, brake and gave to his disciples, saying: Take and eat ye all of this .

FOR THIS IS MY BODY.

LIKEWISE after supper, taking also this excellent Chalice into his holy and venerable hands: again giving thanks to thee, he blessed, and gave to his disciples, saying: Take and drink ye all of it.

FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.

As oft as ye shall do these things , ye shall do them in remembrance of me

WHEREFORE, O Lord, we thy servants, and thy holy people also, mindful of the blessed passion of the same Christ thy Son our Lord, as also his resurrection from hell and glorious ascension into heaven: offer unto thine excellent majesty of thine own gifts and bounty, a pure victim, a holy victim, a spotless victim, the holy Bread of eternal life, and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.

UPON which vouchsafe to look with a favourable and gracious countenance: and to accept them, even as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the gifts of thy just servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham: and the holy sacrifice, the spotless victim, which thy high priest Melchisedech offered unto thee.

WE humbly beseech thee, almighty God: command these to be brought by the hands of thy holy Angel to thine altar on high, in sight of thy divine majesty: that as many as by this partaking of the altar shall receive the most sacred Body and Blood of thy Son, may be fulfilled with all heavenly benediction and grace.

REMEMBER also, O Lord, thy servants and handmaids N. and N who have gone before us with the sign of faith, and rest in the sleep of peace. To them, O Lord, and to all that rest in Christ, we beseech thee to grant a place of refreshing, light and peace.

TO us sinners also, thy servants, hoping in the multitude of thy mercies, vouchsafe to grant some part and fellowship with thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: with John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all thy Saints: within whose company we beseech thee admit us, not weighing our merit, but granting us forgiveness. Through Christ, our Lord.

THROUGH whom, O Lord, all these good things thou dost ever create, dost sanctify, quicken, bless, and bestow upon us.
THROUGH him, and with him, and in him, is unto thee, God the Father almighty, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honour, and glory.

Throughout all ages world without end. R. Amen.

 

[ctos]

Fear not, I’m sure you can find a non-challenging mass location somewhere near you. If you don’t want to change and be sanctified, shop around.

 

[SeekerJen]

Fear not, I’m sure you can find a non-challenging mass location somewhere near you. If you don’t want to change and be sanctified, shop around.

Thank you for proving my point very nicely. Was there really a need to be snarky and sarcastic on a thread where people were being honest and, up to this point, quite kind and civil?

 

[DavidJoseph]

I was scared to make it a habit of going to TLMs. From what little experience I had regarding traditionalists – even some who attend indult Masses, as I do – I was scared the people there might fit one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Feeneyites
2. Refuse to obey or accept Vatican II’s teachings – in all being unable to distinguish between Vatican II itself and the “spirit of Vatican II”
3. Think the Novus Ordo Mass is intrinsically invalid or at least evil
4. Obsessed with Fatima and Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s way-out conspiracy claims
5. See sin in things like women wearing pants
6. Openly attack and criticize the pope for anything and everything
7. Attack and mock orthodox Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Masses and refuse to speak ill of the pope, calling such individuals “neo-Catholics,” “papolators,” etc.

At my parish, I’ve met a few people like that, but they’re the exception, not the rule. Even so, I don’t understand why indult Mass-goers who are like that can’t just be honest and switch to an SSPX or independent chapel, where they can have all the TLMs they love with none of that which they hate, namely, loyalty to the pope. But then again, I guess it’s the same case with “Catholics” who promote contraception, women priests, etc. – why can’t they just become Protestant instead of continuing to call themselves Catholics? But you know what? If I had to choose between dealing with extremist Catholics of any kind, I think I’d rather deal with the libertines than the radical traditionalists. Why? Because while the libertines don’t have any desire for holiness, the radical traditionalists seem to think they’re well on their way to holiness and are thus much more pharisaical.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I was scared to make it a habit of going to TLMs. From what little experience I had regarding traditionalists – even some who attend indult Masses, as I do – I was scared the people there might fit one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Feeneyites
2. Refuse to obey or accept Vatican II’s teachings – in all being unable to distinguish between Vatican II itself and the “spirit of Vatican II”
3. Think the Novus Ordo Mass is intrinsically invalid or at least evil
4. Obsessed with Fatima and Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s way-out conspiracy claims
5. See sin in things like women wearing pants
6. Openly attack and criticize the pope for anything and everything
7. Attack and mock orthodox Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Masses and refuse to speak ill of the pope, calling such individuals “neo-Catholics,” “papolators,” etc.

At my parish, I’ve met a few people like that, but they’re the exception, not the rule. Even so, I don’t understand why indult Mass-goers who are like that can’t just be honest and switch to an SSPX or independent chapel, where they can have all the TLMs they love with none of that which they hate, namely, loyalty to the pope. But then again, I guess it’s the same case with “Catholics” who promote contraception, women priests, etc. – why can’t they just become Protestant instead of continuing to call themselves Catholics? But you know what? If I had to choose between dealing with extremist Catholics of any kind, I think I’d rather deal with the libertines than the radical traditionalists. Why? Because while the libertines don’t have any desire for holiness, the radical traditionalists seem to think they’re well on their way to holiness and are thus much more pharisaical.

I’ve had several of those concerns myself. Plus, I sometimes wonder about how a Catholic can be most useful against abuses. Should we completly leave a parish because of abuses? How about just one abuse? Should a Catholic abandon a parish if there is only one abuse? Plus, is there a benefit for a Catholic to stay in the parish and witness and demonstrate the propor way to behave and worship at Mass?

I don’t have the answers, but that’s why attending the TLM makes me a little uncomfortable. I think also people who attend the TLM exclusively and refuse to attend the NO Mass can be missing some of the good parishes that do observe the NO Mass and preserve some of the traditional practices, such as processions. (My parish has a huge block party every year for the Feast of the Assumption, with a procession of a statue of Our Lady of the Assumption throughout the neighborhood streets.)

 

[rayne89]

Fear not, I’m sure you can find a non-challenging mass location somewhere near you. If you don’t want to change and be sanctified, shop around.

You may want to review the sticky notes on the top of this forum from the mods about posting rules and behavior…

 

[Lucania]

You may want to review the sticky notes on the top of this forum from the mods about posting rules and behavior…

Yep. They are dropping like flies around here. Just an observation

 

[aboverubies]

I think also people who attend the TLM exclusively and refuse to attend the NO Mass can be missing some of the good parishes that do observe the NO Mass and preserve some of the traditional practices,

I feel the same way and have made a point of continuing to go to our local NO Mass regularly, even though I love the TLM we attend most Sundays. My DH was quite keen to go solely to the TLM but I felt strongly that it was important not to cut ourselves off from the NO. Afterall this is the Mass that the majority of our fellow Catholics attend. It is the Mass that I converted to; that DH re-verted to. We both still love it. It didn’t make sense to abandon it completely. I particularly didn’t want our children to grow up separated or isolated from their friends and cousins who attend the NO.

Our local NO Mass is very good and the priest is an excellent man. People travel from quite far, passing many other Catholic parishes to attend Mass there. I think they deserve the support of local families. (I just wonder where they are?) My DH agrees and is now on the serving roster. We will continue to go to both.

Having said all that, the Traditional High Latin Mass is the most Holy and Heavenly thing I have ever observed on God’s green earth. I have truly never seen anything like it. It is a unique experience that I can’t compare to anything else in my life…it’s other-worldly. It creates a longing in one to experience it again and again. Both DH and I have commented that we come out of this Mass and are already thinking of when we can go again. We crave it…like food and drink and rest. It would be a shame to allow fear, erroneous preconcieved ideas and the clumsy words of a few strangers on an anonymous intertnet forum, to close the door on such an experience.

 

[Marilena]

any wonder i’ve had about attending a TLM have been whisked away and quelched quite successfully by some of the people on Catholic Answers who participate in the TLM and post here… I hear the words that the TLM is for the glory of God, but in the time i’ve been here, i wonder about that, i’ve seen no evidence among TLM participants that the liturgy is the crux of their worship… clothes, coverings, posture, gesture… it seems that the legalistic underpinnings on ‘doing it right’ overshadow the NO… simply doing it.
I don’t think the TLM people look down on other Catholics… a lot of the TLM come off as very smug, i don’t bother getting upset by that, its probably that attitude is simply a shadow of a bigger personality issue… i think that people who go out of their way to be disobedient to the Second Vatican Council that they look down on the NO mass and think the traditional way is the ‘better’ way are showing pride and disobedience to the wisdom of The Catholic Church who implemented changes for a reason that may not have anything to do with ‘changing’ rather, may have been more to expose those that follow the orders of the Magesterium and those that follow the orders of their own comfort.

The TLM lost its sparkle to me because of these forums. I realized i’m not afraid of the TLM as much as I’m quite happy with the NO.

i for one friend am not the type that looks down my nose at others just because i attend a Tridentine Mass. i welcome all those who want to go to one. Not everyone who goes to a TLM
or NO looks down their nose at others.

I say the same for those who attend the NO, i welcome all those who attend the NO the same way as I do for those who attend the TLM. Iam most certainly not “smug” not by a long shot.

I go to a TLM because that is where i prefer to be. it might not be for everyone, but it is for me. i only speak for myself and not others.