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HoppityRedux
Guest
Now you are repeating yourself. Say something new, and I’ll be happy to engage.
After decades of opposition, Vatican view on condoms begins to shift
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estesbob
Guest
But it hasnt, has it?
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HoppityRedux
Guest
Yes. Each interpretation changes it as it expands. It hasn’t changed as much as the doctrine of lending money at interest, but it has changed.
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MollyF
Guest
I was thinking about a news story that my brother in law told me. He said that there was one country in Africa that had the lowest percentage of AIDS. The reason? They advocated for no sex before marriage instead of safe sex. I wonder why the rest of Africa hasn’t caught on! Does anyone know of this story?
On a personal note I remember being in public school and being taught how to put a condom on a banana. It was disgusting to think that the school thought we were animals and instead of teaching us how to respect ourselves and wait for marriage, they decided, heck we can’t stop them so lets show them how to be safe. Terrible. I hope the Catholic Church never backs down from the truth no matter how hard it is. God bless the Pope!
On a personal note I remember being in public school and being taught how to put a condom on a banana. It was disgusting to think that the school thought we were animals and instead of teaching us how to respect ourselves and wait for marriage, they decided, heck we can’t stop them so lets show them how to be safe. Terrible. I hope the Catholic Church never backs down from the truth no matter how hard it is. God bless the Pope!
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HoppityRedux
Guest
Is it better to have the knowledge or be ignorant? Should women be kept in the dark and spoon fed only what someone else thinks they can handle?
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HoppityRedux
Guest
I think the country in question is Uganda. Unfortunately, other African countries in which the same program was implemented have sky-high AIDS rates.
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fix
Guest
It is the meaning of money that changed. Usury is still a sin.
Show us an exception to the teaching that contraception is intrinsically wrong.
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manualman
Guest
Hoppity,
If I and others had ignored the CDC references, you’d have a point. What I did instead was to point out that the CDC studies ASSUMED that the existence of condoms didn’t change the BEHAVIOR of the people studied. That is my critique and is one subtly acknowledged by the CDC in the link you provided which conceded that sexual behavior was very difficult to study scientifically.
Thus, the CDC data has NOT established that a culture that promotes condoms and makes them widely available is safer from STD’s than a culture where chastity is taught and exalted, condoms are NOT wided touted, and education focuses on the risks of promiscuity. Folks with attitudes like yours have worked very hard to crush efforts in certain African nations to try this very approach even though you have NO data to support your position, only ideology.
The CDC studied couples in cultures where promiscuity is common, condoms are widely touted in advertising and education and people have assimilated the idea that sex is safe if you use a condom. Again, those studies say NOTHING about how comparatively effective the second culture I described above would be at preventing the spread of AIDS.
To me, the almost panicky reaction to attempts to implement a program like this in some African nations smacks of dishonesty and fear that the condom ideology will be exposed as a band-aid attempt to heal a major wound in modern culture and morals.
If I and others had ignored the CDC references, you’d have a point. What I did instead was to point out that the CDC studies ASSUMED that the existence of condoms didn’t change the BEHAVIOR of the people studied. That is my critique and is one subtly acknowledged by the CDC in the link you provided which conceded that sexual behavior was very difficult to study scientifically.
Thus, the CDC data has NOT established that a culture that promotes condoms and makes them widely available is safer from STD’s than a culture where chastity is taught and exalted, condoms are NOT wided touted, and education focuses on the risks of promiscuity. Folks with attitudes like yours have worked very hard to crush efforts in certain African nations to try this very approach even though you have NO data to support your position, only ideology.
The CDC studied couples in cultures where promiscuity is common, condoms are widely touted in advertising and education and people have assimilated the idea that sex is safe if you use a condom. Again, those studies say NOTHING about how comparatively effective the second culture I described above would be at preventing the spread of AIDS.
To me, the almost panicky reaction to attempts to implement a program like this in some African nations smacks of dishonesty and fear that the condom ideology will be exposed as a band-aid attempt to heal a major wound in modern culture and morals.
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manualman
Guest
oops, botched edit.
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estesbob
Guest
Great post though!
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
After decades of opposition, Vatican view on condoms begins to shift
Hmmmmm…the same predictions of the “Church is about to change” were made by the media in the 60s during the “pill commission.” How accurate were such predictions then? See *Humanae Vitae.
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Hmmmmm…the same predictions of the “Church is about to change” were made by the media in the 60s during the “pill commission.” How accurate were such predictions then? See *Humanae Vitae.
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HoppityRedux
Guest
I see no evidence the CDC assumed condoms do not change behavior.
I see nothing from the CDC saying a culture is safer if it uses condoms.
I agree studies about condoms don’t deal with things outside the scope of that study.
I do see the CDC says condoms are effective in preventing the spread of AIDS.
I dispute those who say condoms are not effective in preventing AIDS. I rely on the CDC in that dispute.
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Writer
Guest
That’s my take, too. Their goal is not this one change in and of itself, but what they hope will come later as the chuch “modernizes”. On the other hand, it’s hard to oppose things on grounds of what will be coming 'round the bend.
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Writer
Guest
Besides…how about “be fruitful and multiply”? It’s in the Bible, too, if we read it with an open mind.
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MollyF
Guest
Are you kidding? As a woman I am deeply offended by this remark. First of all, I am not kept in the dark because I don’ want to learn about safe sex. I believe that sex is a beautiful gift from God, not something just to do because everyone else is doing it. I know from friends how devistating safe sex can be when condoms don’t work, abortions happen, and that the relationship changed or ended. I can handle the truth. Safe sex is not right. It is not from God. It is like you are saying that I love you and want a committment but I don’t want to give myself fully to you.
You think that reality is that people are having sex outside marriage so lets promote condoms. Hey the reality is people are robbing banks, so lets give them the proper tools to rob the banks so no one gets hurt. Really? Just because society believes something is right, doesn’ make it right. Truth doesn’t change. Don’t lower your morals to fix the problem. It is like using a band aid. Hey lets stop AIDS and STDS by promoting condoms-band aid. Instead lets stop AIDS and STDS by teaching morals, values, and respect for life-the root of the problem. Thank God we have the Catholic Church to guide us in truth.
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manualman
Guest
And that was probably 100% correct in an era and economy where inflation was an unknown concept, currency was rarely used in trade and the norm was barter.
Today, inflation is a reality and financing may be legitimately used to allow the lender to participate in the financial benefits received by the borrower (business investments, mortgages, even financing for a depreciating asset is OK if that asset is freely chosen and determined to be ‘worth it’ to the borrower).
But the moral principle of usury still exists. Watch what happens to the loan sharks (and certain credit card company executives) on judgement day. What has changed is not church teaching, but the economic system to which that teaching is applied.
Not the same as human sexuality and contraception.
Molly, you must have missed my absurd example of gangsters and bullet-proof vests. Hoppity just doesn’t get it that culture and societal attitudes influence individual people’s behavior and choices. He’s still thinking that people’s sexual behavior isn’t changed by wide distribution and social acceptance of contraceptives.
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HoppityRedux
Guest
I’m not sure what offends you. I think women should not be kept in the dark, and should have information on ABC available. I don’t think women have to be sheltered from knowledge, and I don’t think they should be kept in ignorance. Is this offensive?
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HoppityRedux
Guest
Benedict was very clear in his encyclical. He said by its very nature the contract between a lender and borrower demanded that only the amount loaned be returned.
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HoppityRedux
Guest
Benedict was very clear in his encyclical. He said by its very nature the contract between a lender and borrower demanded that only the amount loaned be returned.
I agree “culture and societal attitudes influence individual people’s behavior and choices.” You have no basis to say I don’t.
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