After the abortion has been prevented, then what?

[gmarie21]

I think that is a great way to sum it up…do we accept all women who choose Life, or just married women who choose Life.

I agree with you. Just wondering for those who say that allowing a pregnant, unwed woman to remain in the Catholic education system either as a student or faculty, which scandal is worse…an unwed pregnant woman or a face of the Catholic Church shunning an unwed pregnant woman (similar to NIMBYs - Not In My Back Yard attitude)? I guess since God allowed me to be humbled I tend to have a lot more compassion for other sinners and realize that issues are way more complex than what they appear to be on the surface.

 

[KarenNC]

The only girl I have seen that was readmitted after her baby was born, was the victim of a rape.

So she was “good enough” to be in the school only as long as she wasn’t visibly pregnant even though she had absolutely no culpability in the situation?

The child had the courage and strength to live up to her religion’s teachings and continue a pregnancy that was the result of a sexual assault and the response of her Catholic school --the one her parents put her in to learn better moral values than the public schools teach—was “get out until we can pretend that this never happened because you might make us look bad if someone saw you”???

 

[drafdog]

The original question deserves a reasoned response. I seem to recall a scripture decrying the people who say “Go and be well fed and be warmly clothed” and then to nothing to ensure that the other has the means to do so. This is a parallel situation. We say “Give birth to this child, growing in love and tenderness toward it” and then make no effort to see that she can keep the child and raise it. Ask any woman who has borne a child how she would go about handing over a new born for adoption. She will be horrified and repulsed by the very thought.
We are required in Christian justice to aid unwed mothers in their efforts to raise their children. The aid must include financial, emotional, psychological and spiritual support, as well as help with housing and employment. Anything less and we lose mother and child both.

Matthew

 

[BlestOne]

So a girl was raped, then expelled!!!, then after the baby was born, she was re-admitted…wow. Did the school feel that she was to blame for the rape? I can’t imagine how that girl must have felt, first being raped, and then being punished (or perhaps the motive was to hide her away).

No she wasn’t expelled… she quit school during her pregnancy. Normally kids that quit are not readmitted, but of course they make exceptions for emotional distress like this. I am sorry it wasn’t clear.

 

[BlestOne]

So she was “good enough” to be in the school only as long as she wasn’t visibly pregnant even though she had absolutely no culpability in the situation?

The child had the courage and strength to live up to her religion’s teachings and continue a pregnancy that was the result of a sexual assault and the response of her Catholic school --the one her parents put her in to learn better moral values than the public schools teach—was “get out until we can pretend that this never happened because you might make us look bad if someone saw you”???

Sorry… read the post above… she wasn’t expelled.

 

[BlestOne]

I think that is a great way to sum it up…do we accept all women who choose Life, or just married women who choose Life.

Umm are you forgetting that married women are the only ones that should be having intercourse so of course they would be the only ones rewarded for choosing life… they get a baby from God out of the deal. Premarital sex is still a sin isn’t it? Or did the liberals take over and change this while I wasn’t looking???

 

[mesquite_magic]

Umm are you forgetting that married women are the only ones that should be having intercourse so of course they would be the only ones rewarded for choosing life… they get a baby from God out of the deal. Premarital sex is still a sin isn’t it? Or did the liberals take over and change this while I wasn’t looking???

My good, Catholic mother once said, “What’s the sin? The sex, or the baby?” She told my SIL this, when SIL made a nasty comment about my sister’s pregnant teenage dd. What SIL seemed to forget was that she had taken her neice for an abortion once, and had put her own dd on the pill. I think that,in SIL’s eyes, the pregnancy was the sin. Rock on mom, for setting the little witch straight!!!

My point is this, BlestOne, yes premarital sex is a sin. It’s a sin for BOTH participants. Unfortunately it’s only the woman who gets to wear “the scarlett letter”. If she has gone to confession and made her amends with God, who are we to continue judging her. That isn’t “liberals” speaking, that would be Jesus who told us that. Ya know, that whole “judge not lest ye be judged”, and something about “casting stones”…

"Umm are you forgetting that married women are the only ones that should be having intercourse so of course they would be the only ones rewarded for choosing life…"
This part of your post just blew me away… Um, if that’s the case, why are so many faithful Christians infertile, while crack-heads are popping 'em out like crazy.

I don’t know how to end this, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Kim

 

[jmcrae]

Women in crisis pregnancy situations should contact their nearest Elizabeth House, where they will be provided with information and assistance with regard to housing, education, and employment opportunities. If they have been expelled from school and kicked out of the house because of their pregnancy, Elizabeth House will provide them with shelter, food, a school to go to, and training in independent living.

As I understand it, women can stay at Elizabeth House as needed up until the child’s first birthday. After that, they are expected to have acquired independent living skills, including a good job.

Obviously, it’s not the ideal, but it’s better than leaving these women on the streets to fend for themselves.

PS: Elizabeth House is run by the Sisters of the Precious Blood, and they do insist upon Catholic values.

 

[KarenNC]

Umm are you forgetting that married women are the only ones that should be having intercourse so of course they would be the only ones rewarded for choosing life… they get a baby from God out of the deal. Premarital sex is still a sin isn’t it? Or did the liberals take over and change this while I wasn’t looking???

So there is no reward for an unmarried girl to choose life over an abortion?

You have said that “Yes, I am sure there are sexually active students”

Let’s look at what happens to them:

1. boy and girl have premarital sex with contraception—no visible consequences — get to stay in school
2. boy and girl have premarital sex without contraception or contraception fails, get pregnant and have an abortion—no visible consequences —get to stay in school
3. boy and girl have premarital sex, get pregnant, choose not to abort but to either give up the baby for adoption or keep and raise the child, confess their sin and are absolved—very visible consequences—get expelled.

 

[BlestOne]

Mesquite Magic and Karen NC…

So where was the promise of fairness and equality? Karen, I happen to understand what you are saying, but isn’t it a bit like saying it is ok to shoplift if you don’t get caught? GOD knows who is naughty or nice right? Isn’t our salvation the more important goal than justice? Yes, women carry the visible sign of fertility not the men, but isn’t that besides the point? I mean do we let everyone get away with immorality because we can only prove it in women? No…we don’t.

Mesquite, as you pointed out… if they go to confession and repent, who are we to judge… Right… so glad you pointed that out. When we are forgiven does this remove the temporal effect of our sin? We still have to deal with consequences of our sins don’t we? Otherwise, every murderer would be running straight for a confessional and ask for forgiveness to avoid jail time right?

The point is… the school has rules and codes of conduct… why are we trying to undermine it because they can’t promise to catch everyone and discipline them all equally. They try to, but where does the responsibility lie? The kids all know the rules and actually can’t be admitted the first day until they sign that they read the rules. Enforcing rules isn’t in comparison to what others do, it is about individual responsibility in following the rules.

I do have to point out… I went to the school website and reread the rules… it isn’t a school rule, it is a diocean rule…
Diocesan High Schools shall uphold the teachings and disciplines of the
Roman Catholic Church concerning the dignity of human life and the
right of the unborn child. Compromise of these doctrines, by word or
deed, may be cause for immediate expulsion.
Abortion
Students who are known to have procured an abortion, or participated
directly in such a decision, may be required to withdraw from the
Diocesan High School.

I suggest if you don’t like the rules… you better check with your diocese and see what they say… I happen to agree with my bishop.

As far as the question about good faithful people vs. crackheads; This has nothing to do with it… God is the giver of life and only he knows why there are crackheads having babies and good people infertile…that is not for me to answer… or you either.

About the rewards of an unmarried choosing life… sure there are… whether you keep or put the child up for adoption you know that you were given a precious life from God… what a gift. But like other gifts, it doesn’t mean that your life should be easier for being gifted does it? God isn’t social services you know… just because you have a baby, you aren’t entitled to money, food, security, etc… if that were the case, many of us here would never have had to work so hard and worry about feeding our children.

 

[sprout]

QUOTE=BlestOne;2691681
I do have to point out… I went to the school website and reread the rules… it isn’t a school rule, it is a diocean rule…

Diocesan High Schools shall uphold the teachings and disciplines of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the dignity of human life and the right of the unborn child. Compromise of these doctrines, by word or deed, may be cause for immediate expulsion

.
Students who are known to have procured an abortion, or participated directly in such a decision, *may be *required to withdraw from the Diocesan High School.
I suggest if you don’t like the rules… you better check with your diocese and see what they say… I happen to agree with my bishop.

How is it you say “I happen to agree with my bishop”?

The Diocesan rules for Catholic High Schools you quoted don’t say anything about pregnant students being expelled (at least in your quote) and say that students involved in procuring an abortion may be expelled.

Do you have any quotes on what your Diocesan rules are for those who are involved in parish ministry? Does the Bishop of your Diocese support expelling unwed mothers from ministry who choose life for their child?

You are more likely the one compromising the doctrines of the Church regarding “the dignity of human life and the right of the unborn child” in word (your posts here) and deed (by the -]church/-] parish community removing the unwed mother who chose life from ministry) by further condoning the actions of the -]church/-] parish community.

“Umm are you forgetting that married women are the only ones that should be having intercourse so **of course they would be the only ones **rewarded for choosing life…”

The unborn child has a right to life regardless of whether his/her parents are married or the circumstances of his/her conception.

I can only hope that your Diocese does not expel students who choose life and instead supports these brave students in every way possible to be able to give life for their babies and finish their education.

I’d also like to direct you to these scriptures in case you might have forgotten:

John 8
And the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, 4 And said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what sayest thou?

6 And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee?

11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more. 12 Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13 The Pharisees therefore said to him: Thou givest testimony of thyself: thy testimony is not true. 14 Jesus answered, and said to them: Although I give testimony of myself, my testimony is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go: but you know not whence I come, or whither I go. 15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.

and this one:

Luke 7
And behold a woman that was in the city, a sinner, when she knew that he sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment; 38 And standing behind at his feet, she began to wash his feet, with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 And the Pharisee, who had invited him, seeing it, spoke within himself, saying: This man, if he were a prophet, would know surely who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him, that she is a sinner. 40 And Jesus answering, said to him: Simon, I have somewhat to say to thee. But he said: Master, say it.

41 A certain creditor had two debtors, the one who owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42 And whereas they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which therefore of the two loveth him most? 43 Simon answering, said: I suppose that he to whom he forgave most. And he said to him: Thou hast judged rightly. 44 And turning to the woman, he said unto Simon: Dost thou see this woman? I entered into thy house, thou gavest me no water for my feet; but she with tears hath washed my feet, and with her hairs hath wiped them. 45 Thou gavest me no kiss; but she, since she came in, hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint; but she with ointment hath anointed my feet. 47 Wherefore I say to thee: Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much. But to whom less is forgiven, he loveth less. 48 And he said to her: Thy sins are forgiven thee. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves: Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman: Thy faith hath made thee safe, go in peace.

 

[BlestOne]

Boy am I glad I live where I do… You all are way too liberal for me!!! I am done with this thread. Just because I support consequences for kids that break rules you accuse me of being mean spirited… and now apparently I am compared to pharisees. To be arguing over may be expelled is ridiculous… yes it says may… and I know the school… they exercise this option…and as I said many times… MY OPINION IS THAT THEY ARE RIGHT TO EXERCISE THIS OPTION… of course there may come a situation when they don’t… that is why there is the word MAY in there.

If it is a possible consequence that you go to jail for stealing and you don’t want to go to jail, are you going to chance that they may not send you and steal or are you going to think…hmmm if I steal, I could go to jail?

 

[sprout]

BlestOne
Just because I support consequences for kids that break rules you accuse me of being mean spirited.

No. this is as illogical as calling people who are so prolife that they think it’s wrong for a parish community to only support women who are married that choose life and not support women who are unmarried who choose life.

How that is being a liberal is beyond me! I though liberals were pro-choice!

I also don’t see anyone here accuse you of being mean spirited because you “support consequences for kids that break rules” since you haven’t even posted exactly what rules a kid broke when she chose to give life to her baby. Why there should be additional “consequences” or punishment imposed above and beyond the obvious difficulties she will inevitably be facing with an unplanned pregnancy is beyond me. How a parish community, Christian School, or Diocese could choose to make her life even more difficult at this time due to her choosing life is also beyond belief. I highly doubt that’s actually the case especially since there’s no documentation to support it.

 

[mesquite_magic]

Is forgiveness “liberal” ? I always understood it to be Catholic/Christian. Otherwise, what is the point of Reconcillation?

I never accused you of being mean-spirited. In fact there are some things I agree with you about. Actions do require consequences. The thing is… premartial sex isn’t against the law. We don’t throw fornacators(for lack of a better word) in jail. We put murders and rapists and thieves in jail to protect society. What are we protecting society from by throwing a pregnant girl in jail?

What kind of penence do we require of the pregnant woman? Do we turn the pregnancy into a punishment? How long will her penence be? If she is required to leave school, is she also required to leave her church community? Does she have to take Communion in secret, so parishoners won’t have her sin in their face? Will her child have to be Baptised in secret? How long does her penence last? And is it our job to impose that penence? Isn’t that between her, her confesser, and God? Would we want our sins posted on a check-list for all of the parishoners to check off for us?

I maintain that the best thing we could possibably do for this young woman is to let her stay in school. An education leads to a job that allows her to care for herself and her child. It leads to productive citizens who aren’t a drain on our Welfare system. Isn’t that a better solution?

This isn’t ment to be an attack on you, BlestOne, or our Catholic school system. Just simple observations on my part.

Kim

 

[KarenNC]

Some interesting links I found

abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=News&id=1550146
Catholic school throws baby shower for a pregnant 14 yo as part of teen pregnancy prevention month (note girl was from another school, doesn’t say if it was Catholic)

eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?nfpb=true&&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ310432&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ310432
This study looks like it would be very interesting reading, but I can’t figure out how to get to the actual article—any suggestions?

Diocese of Lexington leaves the policy on married or pregnant students to the local school
home.catholicweb.com/school/files/2006_Catholic_Schools_Policies.pdf

This Catholic school looks at it on a case by case basis, and includes the father of the child if he is a student there
shinercatholicschool.org/media/docs/scs_0607handbook.pdf

This one actively encourages girls to continue at the school and enroll their babies in the onsite daycare
jdchs.org/news.html?linkid=246#8
*Only a decade ago, typical Catholic school policies required dismissal if a student was pregnant. But we found that policy was taking away a big part of a student’s support system just when they needed it most in choosing to continue the pregnancy. Because the Catholic Church believes life is sacred, many Catholic schools have changed their position. *

This one supports pregnant teens
divinechildhighschool.org/hb_additional.php#life

and this one
cghsnc.net/CampusLife/StudentCodeConduct/StudentConduct/tabid/99/Default.aspx

and this one (neither parent may hold leadership positions in the school)
lchs-yes.org/PDF/Handbook.pdf

This one, too
tcdsb.org/policyregister/SM14.html
*A loving, affirming environment, which includes guidance respectful of the teachings of Jesus, shall be made available to a pregnant student. *

marioncatholic.org/PDFpages/handbook%2005-06.pdf
At this time in their lives, students involved in a pregnancy need Christian acceptance, compassion and counsel. It is the Christian community’s responsibility to give support and aid
to those involved. Counseling for the expectant parents is strongly recommended.

Here’s a program in Edmonton providing support for pregnant and parenting teens in Catholic schools
ourladyofgrace.ecsd.net/pregnancy.html

and in Calgary
cssd.ab.ca/default.asp?V_ITEM_ID=256

seems Canada is doing a good job with this

This one, however, boots them out
staugustineschool.com/docs/Parent-Student-Handbook-06.pdf
The school should assist the pregnant student to make arrangements for continuing her education by referring the student to an alternate program.

There are more, this is a sampling

 

[MaryD7]

… Just because I support consequences for kids that break rules you accuse me of being mean spirited…

BlestOne, I know that you are feeling a little jumped on here but I have to comment on the above portion of your last post.

Don’t you think that the consequence of a girl/woman getting pregnant out of wedlock is getting to walk around for months while she protects the life she created until the infant can be born? How do you think it feels to be in this situation?

I can tell you from first hand experience that it is not fun. Everybody in your religious community knows you sinned. Everybody at your school/job knows your business. Your family and the guy’s family can either be supportive or difficult, depending on how they look at a baby being born. Dreams are pretty much altered or put on the shelf. Your whole future is now up in the air but because you believe in life and not compounding a sin with another sin, you buck up and do what you have to do. If those aren’t consequences I don’t know what are.

It’s not easy having people whisper behind your back or questioning your motives. In fact, I understand why some women think it is easier to have an abortion and deal with that guilt on their own than go through with the pregnancy.

While I was carrying my oldest child I know of two women who had abortions, both because they were not yet married and wanted to have a church wedding. (The dates had already been set.) I never got a big church wedding. I had a priest, my husband, my son, my MIL and a friend who was unemployed at the time. I gave up my wedding for the sake of my son. I understood that this was a consequence of my behavior.

You’re right when you say that people shouldn’t be having premarital sex. But as we all know, many people who are dating get caught up in the passion and go to far. Some get caught and some don’t. Why should those that get caught have to be treated as outcasts?

 

[boppaid]

If it is a possible consequence that you go to jail for stealing and you don’t want to go to jail, are you going to chance that they may not send you and steal or are you going to think…hmmm if I steal, I could go to jail?

See, I see it differently. I believe these girls should be rewarded. Praise God! they took a difficult road, and bravely came forward and stepped up to the plate and did a very difficult thing. They need support.

 

[PoliSciProf]

Check out this link to the Washington Times Sept. 7, 2007, to see how a VA parish is handling this issue.
washingtontimes.com/article/20070907/CULTURE/109070052/1015

 

[gmarie21]

Check out this link to the Washington Times Sept. 7, 2007, to see how a VA parish is handling this issue.
washingtontimes.com/article/20070907/CULTURE/109070052/1015

That’s Wonderful. Praise be to God!

 

[Julianna]

I would asked Blest One…if the father of the child was a high school boy and attended the same Catholic School…should he be expelled as well?

True story…happened in the Diocese of Charleston many years ago. The priest/principal of the school had a decision to make. He called the parents of both students into the office…and told the parents of the boy that he too would be expelled according to the rules…the boys parents were outraged…and when the football coach found out…oh no !

The result was…both stayed in school…both decided to place the child for adoption. It was a win-win for all.