Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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There is some serious misconception here. I will answer this fully however I want to see if this is consensus of the other Catholics.

Do other Catholics agree with this?
The only misconception is yours if you are comparing Jesus forgiveness of the thief to the average person since then who has had time to sin since baptism. Unless you’re claiming you are not a sinner and support the guaranteed salvation thing. It was granted to the thief because of his faith and to all for the forgiveness of sin but with time and man’s free will, new sins require repentance.
 
So you agree with 1621 that it was a special grace granted only to the theif of the cross?
It was a special grace, because it was a baptism of desire (or baptism of blood possibly…) We have no room for sin at the moment of our baptism…we are filled completely with God’s grace.

Goodness.it was Jesus THERE, present, bleeding and broken beside the good thief! Surely, that is reason enough to believe the grace He recieved was “special.”

But also keep in mind… That we all recieve this grace at our baptism:)
 
Today means today. Im funny like that;)
Did Jesus go to heaven immediately after death? No. Did He ascend to heaven 3 days after His death on His resurrection? No
Remember what He said in the garden to Mary Magdelain? I have not ascended to my Father yet.

That evening Jesus was traveling with some disciples to Ammaus.
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alone:
When you recite your creed you say he went to hell.
Others say he went to the holding tank with all the OT saints to release them.
Jesus said He would be in paradise.

Jesus said Paradise. Why would He lie?
Is paradise purgatory? No one has said it was.
18 For Christ also died * for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20* who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, [1 Pet 3:…]

That is what Jesus did immediately the “Day” He died on the cross. He went to preach to the souls in prison, who are there going back to the days of Noah.

Keep trying
 
Today means today. Im funny like that;)
When you recite your creed you say he went to hell.
Others say he went to the holding tank with all the OT saints to release them.
Jesus said He would be in paradise.

Jesus said Paradise. Why would He lie?
Is paradise purgatory? No one has said it was.
He didn’t lie, you are correct. But man sins through his mortal weakness and since Jesus died for our sins and man has the notion to sin again after Baptism, if man is repentant, he still will most often have to go through the “purging” or purifying before entering Heaven. That is what Purgatory is.
 
God is faithful, even if we are not. You believe we cant be unfaithful, and Jesus pulls our strings once we are “born again”.
We just cant mess up. If we do, it was a false being “born again”.
:confused:

By the way, do you believe in water baptism in the trinitarian formula as Jesus himself had, or do you think thats irrelevant?
A silly waste of water?
I believe in water baptism. It is the first step of obedience for the new Christian. It is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
 
Underdog,

I did not say I worship Mary. I used the word pedestal because this phrase was used earlier in the thread in a question about Mary. I said I honor her as I believe Jesus also did. Mary was his mother. And I believe that he gave her to all humanity on the cross as our Mother. 🙂
I can understand the word "honor’ because Mary was honored. Do you recant the word “pedestal” in regards to Mary? BTW, do you have a statue of Mary on a pedestal at home?
 
It was a special grace, because it was a baptism of desire (or baptism of blood possibly…) We have no room for sin at the moment of our baptism…we are filled completely with God’s grace.

Goodness.it was Jesus THERE, present, bleeding and broken beside the good thief! Surely, that is reason enough to believe the grace He recieved was “special.”

But also keep in mind… That we all recieve this grace at our baptism:)
Ahh. so you see God granting special grace to certain people. Can we call those who receive special grace as God’s elect or chosen ones?
 
I can understand the word "honor’ because Mary was honored. Do you recant the word “pedestal” in regards to Mary? BTW, do you have a statue of Mary on a pedestal at home?
Is placing her on a pedastool not giving her honor?
 
He didn’t lie, you are correct. But man sins through his mortal weakness and since Jesus died for our sins and man has the notion to sin again after Baptism, if man is repentant, he still will most often have to go through the “purging” or purifying before entering Heaven. That is what Purgatory is.
I believe that if you understand what happened to our old man and to our sins on the cross, you will see that is not necessary. I don’t believe purgatory is taught in scripture. And in Hebrews, speaking of Jesus as our great High Priest, it says “By ONE offering He has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified.” !!!
 
Ahh. so you see God granting special grace to certain people. Can we call those who receive special grace as God’s elect or chosen ones?
The good thief recieved this special grace because He repented of his sins and turned towards Jesus. Jesus did not say “YOU! GOOD THIEF! You’re gonna be with me in heaven, OK? Just sit back, it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re going to be in heaven because I’m the son of God and I say so…”

No…He chose to believe and Christ blessed him for it.
 
I believe in water baptism. It is the first step of obedience for the new Christian. It is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
Do you believe it is for the remission of sins, as Saint Peter states in Acts of the Apostles?
 
The good thief recieved this special grace because He repented of his sins and turned towards Jesus. Jesus did not say “YOU! GOOD THIEF! You’re gonna be with me in heaven, OK? Just sit back, it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re going to be in heaven because I’m the son of God and I say so…”

No…He chose to believe and Christ blessed him for it.
Okay, we know one thief repented and believed in Christ and the other thief refused and did not repent and believe in Christ. BTW… we are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, the one thief will be in Heaven based on him doing the right thing, and the other thief will be in Hell based on doing the wrong thing. Are you teaching that by doing the right thing, we will be in Heaven? This can be also described as self-righteousness. 🙂 The only way out of self-righteousness is to look deeper and see why the good thief was able to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
:rotfl:

LOL… funny.

Well, gee. I might as well go out tonight, get drunk, and find me some women.

No condemnation fo’ me! 😃
That’s the classic response, but it reveals a low view of salvation. Read Romans 6 and tell me if Paul thought that was a concern. But friend, if you saw even the littlest of your sins through the holy eyes of God, you would know that your ‘little’ sins are much more hideous than you can imagine.
 
Okay, we know one thief repented and believed in Christ and the other thief refused and did not repent and believe in Christ. BTW… we are all commanded to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, the one thief will be in Heaven based on him doing the right thing, and the other thief will be in Hell based on doing the wrong thing. ** Are you teaching that by doing the right thing, we will be in Heaven? This can be also described as self-righteousness. 🙂 **The only way out of self-righteousness is to look deeper and see why the good thief was able to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wow…

You’re telling us that accepting God’s grace is self righteousness? That Christ’s promise to be with Him in heaven, somehow means the OTHER thief is guranteed to be in hell? Nobody knows if the other thief went to hell or not… That is because we CANNOT judge another person’s soul based on their works or anything else for that matter. But we DO know, the good thief is in heaven because Christ promised!
 
I believe that if you understand what happened to our old man and to our sins on the cross, you will see that is not necessary. I don’t believe purgatory is taught in scripture. And in Hebrews, speaking of Jesus as our great High Priest, it says “By ONE offering He has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified.” !!!
I’m jumping in late here, but have a question for Martin: are YOU being sanctified? If so, when do you think the process will be completed?
 
Do you believe it is for the remission of sins, as Saint Peter states in Acts of the Apostles?
I believe it is a picture of our sins being washed away. And it shows that we truly are followers of Jesus. Peter said “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.”. I think the rest of scripture teaches that it is not baptism but the blood of Jesus and our faith in that which saves. The baptism was the sign that my saving faith was real.
 
Today means today. Im funny like that;)
When you recite your creed you say he went to hell.
Others say he went to the holding tank with all the OT saints to release them.
Jesus said He would be in paradise.

Jesus said Paradise. Why would He lie?
Is paradise purgatory? No one has said it was.
:rolleyes:

Don’t you think that the Good Thief suffered enough? I’m sure his temporal punishment was servere enough already; he probably didn’t even need to go to Purgatory, or was only there for a short stint. And since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to Heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to Heaven.

Either way you didn’t disprove Purgatory; it’s right in the Bible:

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Bad works are purged away, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called Purgatory. The bad wrks that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one suffers in Heaven) or Hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation). “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is a temporal punishment after our death, but the person themself is still saved.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your adversary or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “adversary” (antidiko) is a reference to the Devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against mankind (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10) and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a “prison”, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out “until the last penny” is paid.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in Heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in Hell. These people are being led to heaven from Purgatory, odviously.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
 
  1. Mary could be considered in a way “dead in her sin” inasmuch as she needed to be redeemed (in her it was a singular grace bestowed by God at the moment of her conception).
  2. This verse is speaking generally of the entire, collective, human race.
by **Matariel **Post #73 Everyone (the entire human race) was “in Adam” in a certain sense, so what I said is completely reasonable. But then this get’s into the Traducian vs. Creationist view of the soul-- but that’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms…
Got a contradiction here between your 2 posts and the one below by Good Fella.
Originally Posted by Good Fella
Re: Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you? Post #941 Nov 15 08
Mary did not possess a wounded sinful nature, so of course she was not compelled to subdue the lusts and passions of the flesh that the rest of us have to. Since she had no “old self” to begin with there could be no “new self” to acquire by the grace of God. To have an “old self” she would have had to be conceived in a state of original sin. And an acquisition of a “new self” would involve a conversion experience. Such a transistion could never have applied to Mary who was preserved free from the taint of original sin.
Hi Matariel,

So I guess question is: Was Mary ‘dead in her sin’, dead in fallen Adam (her ‘old self/man’)? Was she conceived in a state of original sin or not??
 
I’m jumping in late here, but have a question for Martin: are YOU being sanctified? If so, when do you think the process will be completed?
Yes. And John says “When we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!”. So it will be complete then. But our High Priest’s offering guaranteed that perfection on that day. Do you agree?
 
Yes. And John says “When we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!”. So it will be complete then. But our High Priest’s offering guaranteed that perfection on that day. Do you agree?
So then…what do you make of the whole “nothing unclean can enter heaven” thing?

In order to first SEE Him, we must be clean. In order to see Him, we must be like Him… But we cannot be made like Him at the instant we see Him, because we cannot see Him at all without first being clean :confused:

This is why we believe in purgatory… It is the process by which God cleanses us, so that we are made like Him, clean, holy, and spotless…so that we CAN see Him:)
 
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