Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[tassitus]

Yes. And John says “When we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!”. So it will be complete then. But our High Priest’s offering guaranteed that perfection on that day. Do you agree?

Yes, during our lives we begin the process, and upon our death the process will be completed. We give the name “purgatory” to that final post-death process. Do you have no name for it? Or do you believe you go from sinner (repentant and saved, but still with sinful tendencies) directly to perfection in heaven upon your death?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There is a biblical truth- that all of scripture is the truth. This means for anything to be true it must line up to all of scripture.
The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. (Ps 119:160)

Now that I say that If Jesus is God how can He sin?

Your objection and your exception for Mary does not hold up to scripture this is a false doctrine.

AG_ where is my prize?:extrahappy:

No prize yet.

Were Adam and Eve born without original sin?

Who is the New Eve? Who is the New Adam?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I have it was so simple.
Luke 23

You have done nothing of the sort.

You have pointed out a single verse about a specific case.

We don’t know if this was a universal promise.

We don’t know if this was considered an absolution and therefore eliminated the need for purging.

We don’t know if the statement is referring to God’s time, in which case purgatory might have been in the thief’s future.

These points are not explained in this passage.

You have proven nothing.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Ahh. so you see God granting special grace to certain people. Can we call those who receive special grace as God’s elect or chosen ones?

There is no question that certain people in history have been chosen for specific tasks.

Call them what you like!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I believe that if you understand what happened to our old man and to our sins on the cross, you will see that is not necessary. I don’t believe purgatory is taught in scripture. And in Hebrews, speaking of Jesus as our great High Priest, it says “By ONE offering He has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified.” !!!

Nothing there contradicts purgatory.

Purgatory is the finishing touches on our sanctification.

We are not yet fully assured of permanent sanctification until we reach heaven.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Yes. And John says “When we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!”. So it will be complete then. But our High Priest’s offering guaranteed that perfection on that day. Do you agree?

It must be complete before we can see him.

Hebrews 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Why strive?

 

[Ag_not]

**
ATTENTION PROTESTANTS

Here is everything you need to know to save your soul! **

freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky056.gif

offtopic] dang - more than 200 posts to get through - great stuff /endofftopic]

Back on topic:

Realcatholicgk - Strike one - Deliberate inflamatory witism - :nunchuk:

You have been warned best-smilies.com/smilies/Bang on the head/xqv_best-smilies.com_bang020.gif"]http://www.best-smilies.com/smilies/Bang on the head/xqv_best-smilies.com_bang020.gif

 

[Matariel]

Hi Matariel,

Hi, Henning.

So I guess question is: Was Mary ‘dead in her sin’, dead in fallen Adam (her ‘old self/man’)? Was she conceived in a state of original sin or not??

Well, what I am going to say is of less authority than Good Fella; he’s Catholic, I’m not yet Catholic, going through RCIA right now to become Catholic.

That said, I think you are misunderstanding what sense I am talking in. What I am saying, is (besides the fact that St. Paul was speaking generally) Blessed Mary was “dead in her sin” inasmuch as she needed a Redeemer (her Divine Son, Christ). She was in Adam, as every human was (though I refuse to debate Traducian Vs. Creationist soul theory, it’s way too complicated, and Catholics are allowed to freely choose which they believe-- altough the Traducian view, which I hold to, is clearly the minority). However, because of a singular grace from Heaven, Mary was immaculately (free from original sin) conceived. Just as the Ark of the Old Covenant was kept from defilement, so the Ark of the New Covenant, Blessed Mary, was kept free from sin in order to house the King of Glory in her womb.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hisalone,

I gave three however if you want me to narrow it down to one I will.

Purgatory.
Show me where it is in the bible?

The honest answer is that it is that there are several sources for this. Chances are, you may not have 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 … that is OK… I’ll give it to you…

“…making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins”. But don’t stop there - actually, there are several more …

Here is the link: newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

And here are some references you can go to in your own Bible:

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God. (Source: Catholic Encycllpedia)

Ah, and some more…

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” (Source: Catholic Encycllpedia)

And, then there is St., Paul…(1Cor 3: 11-15) D

“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

Now, I am not sure how you are disposed to the Early Church Fathers (the group of men who lived from 100AD - 400AD) But, I guess they would not be considered Biblical?

In my opinion there is enough here to make the case that Purgatory is in fact a Biblical concept. I dare say, it is a logical and just concept, too - but, that may be stretching things…

My question to you, Hisalone, and to anyone else who thinks the Bible is ALL THERE IS… how do you explain the meaning of John 21:25 “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” I am guessing here - but, this does seem to identify that there are real, genuine and significant omissions in the Bible - actual realities that were simply not written down!

I think it would be presumptious to think of them being simply discarded. So, what happened to them? In my opinion, the answer rests in Sacred Tradition. To simply dismiss something because **IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE **fails to recognize John’s words telling you that there are real things that were not put in the Bible. Since God is the real Author - the assumption is that He knows what He is doing and that these omissions were not accidental but intended.

There was a Chruch BEFORE there was a Bible. “On Pentecost Sunday, the Holy Spirit did not deliver a book.” The oral teachings of the Apostles, and the teachings of their disciples are what formed Sacred Tradition. And the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) in this matter, too.

God Bless

 

[Ag_not]

Purgatory
Marion Doctrines
Praying to the dead are all unbiblical.

Excellent. Now, prove it to me.

 

[Ag_not]

The Assumption of Mary. Absolutely no Biblical testament that she was brought to Heaven in such a manner.

Just to refresh your memory, I asked for proof that the Catholic church teaches one thing that contradicts the Bible. No evidence in the Bible of something is NOT necessarily contradicting it. If you believe the teaching of the Assumption actually CONTRADICTS the Bible, then make your case and we will examine it together:thumbsup:

 

[Matariel]

Today means today. Im funny like that
When you recite your creed you say he went to hell.
Others say he went to the holding tank with all the OT saints to release them. Jesus said He would be in paradise.

Jesus said Paradise. Why would He lie?
Is paradise purgatory? No one has said it was.

Don’t you think that the Good Thief suffered enough? I’m sure his temporal punishment was servere enough already; he probably didn’t even need to go to Purgatory, or was only there for a short stint. And since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to Heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to Heaven.

Either way you didn’t disprove Purgatory; it’s right in the Bible:

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Bad works are purged away, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called Purgatory. The bad wrks that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one suffers in Heaven) or Hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation). **“if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” ** (Dude, this is what Catholics call “Purgatory”! )The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is a temporal punishment after our death, but the person themself is still saved.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your adversary or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “adversary” (antidiko) is a reference to the Devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against mankind (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10) and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a “prison”, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out “until the last penny” is paid.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in Heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in Hell. These people are being led to heaven from Purgatory, odviously.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

 

[liberalcatholic]

Hey Agnots, I have a feeling you already know that you have won this battle, there is no arguing with the TRUTH. Plus there is no way to prove the correct way to interpret a Bible verse, this comes by faith and the Holy Spirit. The truth is the Catholic Church is not just a human institution. And Jesus was not just a man. So when you go to church you are not just going into a house, workplace, hospital, school etc… You are going to where Jesus is. Yes, humans can still defile it in their actions and words, but Jesus will still remain there in the eucherist and also in the people.

 

[Martin777]

Got a contradiction here between your 2 posts and the one below by Good Fella.

Hi Matariel,

So I guess question is: Was Mary ‘dead in her sin’, dead in fallen Adam (her ‘old self/man’)? Was she conceived in a state of original sin or not??

I am not aware of a single verse of scripture that states Mary was sinless. All men and women sinned in Adam and all were born with sin natures. Paul says “there are none righteous, no not one.”. He didn’t say, “Errrrr…except of course for Mary.”

 

[Ag_not]

Ro 3:23 -for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Earlier in the chapter, Paul says as it is written in other words, he is quoting the Old Testament. Psalm 14 to be precise. Now, look at that scripture:

1 For the leader. Of David. 2 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; **not one **does what is right.
2
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if **even one **is wise, if even one seeks God.
3
All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. **Not one does what is right, not even one. **4
Will these evildoers never learn? **They devour my people **as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD.
5
They have good reason, then, to fear; ***God is with the company of the just. ***
6
**They **would crush the hopes of the poor, but the poor have the LORD as their refuge.

Now, here the psalmist, which Paul is quoting says very clearly, as Paul does, ALL. But does all mean all??? How can it when a few lines along we read MY PEOPLE. That is, God’s people. So the all, is not actually all, but those people NOT of God’s people. The Evil Doers. Otherwise, if the all meant all people, that is every single solitary person, then who are the ‘‘company of the just’’, or in the RSV_CE version, the generation of the righteous???

So, now you know that all doesnt always mean actually all, where do we go from here.

The wages of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die. Yes? Are there people in the Bible who we are told did Not die? IF they didnt die, does that mean they did not collect the wages of sin?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hisalone made a false argument. The problem is he also made it seem like what he said was actually a teaching of the Catholic church. **
**That just isn’t true. ****:tsktsk: **

**The Catholic Church doesn’t officially teach of a place called purgatory! **Our church doesn’t have a massive doctrine of purgatory The section on purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032).
There are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists:
(1) that there is a purification after death,
(2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and
(3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.
Among the things the Church does not insist on are the ideas that purgatory is a place or that it takes a period of time time. It is OK if you believe these things, but there is need to defend them as Church teachings! The church doesn’t address these matters because it just isn’t important!

**Everyone were correct on what you posted concerning purgatory! There are many NT verses support the doctrine of purgatory! What I find stranger is that it **is supported not only from numerous passages in the NT, but it can actually be derived from Protestant theology.

**I would guess that around 32,000 of the Protestant denominations believe in purgatory , except for the OSAS nuts! And some of them even believe in it also! It is really hard to tell exactly what Protestants believe, as a group, because of the 61,000 denominations and their 1,375 doctrines and dogmas and the Protestant’s constant changing of their beliefs and truths. The best that could ever be ventured would be an educated guess. Even Protestants don’t know exactly how many believe what concerning their many different doctrines. Thank God, the Catholic church hasn’t changed our teachings in 2,000 years! The truth always remains the truth, if you follow Jesus’ real teachings! **
Many Protestant denominations hold firmly to the belief and in fact are insistent that we continue sinning until death because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Therefore, even in their distorted way of thinking, between death and eternal glory there must be a sanctification—a purification—of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as I said, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that in itself is purgatory by definition—the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms for our seperated brethren: “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”

The Catholic church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region or for any exact length of time. We do not know how time or space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls. We have just been told that it will occur! We believe God and trust His word!
The final purification may actually take place in the immediate presence of God. In fact, in his book on eschatology, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict VXI, described purgatory as a fiery, transforming encounter with Christ and his love: "Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God * and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints…*
**That works for me! **

**God Bless **

 

[AshleyBelle]

I am not aware of a single verse of scripture that states Mary was sinless. All men and women sinned in Adam and all were born with sin natures. Paul says “there are none righteous, no not one.”. He didn’t say, “Errrrr…except of course for Mary.”

He didn’t say “Errrr except of course Jesus” either

 

[Martin777]

Hey Agnots, I have a feeling you already know that you have won this battle, there is no arguing with the TRUTH. Plus there is no way to prove the correct way to interpret a Bible verse, this comes by faith and the Holy Spirit. The truth is the Catholic Church is not just a human institution. And Jesus was not just a man. So when you go to church you are not just going into a house, workplace, hospital, school etc… You are going to where Jesus is. Yes, humans can still defile it in their actions and words, but Jesus will still remain there in the eucherist and also in the people.

Which debate did he win? I love your quote, by the way!

 

[Martin777]

He didn’t say “Errrr except of course Jesus” either

And that’s your rebuttal? You can’t be serious.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am not aware of a single verse of scripture that states Mary was sinless. All men and women sinned in Adam and all were born with sin natures. Paul says “there are none righteous, no not one.”. He didn’t say, “Errrrr…except of course for Mary.”

How do you reconcile this with the many Scripture verses in which God speaks of particular men as righteous–including Abraham, Melchisadek, Enoch, Elijah, etc.?

If ‘none are righteous’ (meaning no person ever, after Adam, according to your interpretation is ‘righteous’ and all are born with “sin nature”), then Scripture contradicts itself in saying the above people, specifically and by name, were righteous in God’s eyes.

So, explain please. . .
I have an explanation myself but I’d like to see if yours is different. . .