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benedictus2
Guest
Yes we can. SS and SF have been debunked many times over. The rapture - well depends on how exactly you look at it. The exact Calvinist interpretation I am not au fait with but will read up on that.
Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!
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B
benedictus2
Guest
So what is wrong with that? If someone does not get canonized during a certain generation, it is no big deal.Not really. Yes, there needs to be 2 (I think) miracles to seal the deal.
But, in reality that is not the basis for why they are chosen to be on the list for beatification(only one miracle needed here?) or for cannonization(gotta have 2). Although, its a requirement, and that opens up another can of worms for me in another way. Rather not get slapped for a derail though.
AND, my problem is not random cannonization- but the opposite. Causes take money and time. And, if either are lacking, or entire generations die out while waiting…
The canonization is a formal declaration. Details of their lives will not change. And if a generation passes not knowing this saint or that, we have a whole plethora of them to choose from while wait for the seal from the Vatican.
The Church needs to be really careful with these declarations so I am glad that it takes time.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Henning,
Wow… this was complex…at least for me. So, let me see if I understand this correctly. A section of 2 Cor will be contrasted with the CC’s teaching on the Immaculate Conception - and this handled from a Biblical perspective:
2Cor 5:14-21 “For the love of Christ impels us, once we have come to the conviction that one died for all; therefore, all have died. He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer. So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”
As I understand the situation with the Immacuate Conception - we fist see that God’s Plan was initially revealed in the Garden of Eden as seen in Gen3:14-15 "Then the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” Where Mary as the Mother of Christ would be an instrument of God in the defeat of Satan.
The second part of God’s Plan is demonstrated in Luke’s account of what happened after the angel Gabriel visited Mary and then Mary went to visit Elizabeth (Lk 1:39-49) “During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” And Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
By a special grace of God, Mary - a human being - was spared the effects and stain of the sin of Adam. This was because of God’s special grace and not due to any merit on the part of Mary. As we read this account from Luke, the humility expressed by the Mother of God is profound.
Now, we want to contrast these Scriptures with the idea that somehow the CC is in violation of Scripture because “…it does not seem to fit”? Actually, I do not think it fits at all - but, that is just a personal opinon.
Paul was writing to the Believers in Corinth for a very special purpose - and, even though there is an abundance of metaphor in this section - adding Mary to what he was talking about would have not been to his purpose. The entire human race was born in sin - except - Mary. Since Mary was not the topic that he was addressing to this particular group in his letter, including her would have been simply going off on a tangent, as I see it.
Christ died for all - and yes, that would mean that in a very real sense, He died for His Mother - but, not because she was in sin. He died for us - and He was not in sin. God’s Plan for our Salvation is very compact: Mary’s being born without sin only makes sense if Christ is going to use her body as His Dwelling Place.
I am guessing that there are very specific instances where the Sacred Writer has a specific intent in what he writes - as he is inspired by God in what is written. Not all verses will mesh like gears - mainly because I do not think they were intended to do so.
My command of languages is limited to English … and unfortunately, I sometimes torture it
I have no knowlede of Greek… but, I don’t think I am alone in that limitation. To develop the idea that Christ died for all of us to free us from sin is correct. Mary is a special case: the one human being out of all human beings to be conceived in the usual way - but - without sin.
To use an analogy: the US Congress usually passes bills with the idea of them becoming Laws effecting the entire country. From time to time, however, the Congress writes a bill that effects just one person. The fact that there is a one-person law out there in the legal system of the US does not compromise the rest of the laws written by the Congress. This legislative body was free to pass this individual act - and did so. God was free to exempt Mary from Original Sin - and, at the same time provide us with a sinless Savior to be sacrificed in our place. Thank God for such Love.
God bless
Wow… this was complex…at least for me. So, let me see if I understand this correctly. A section of 2 Cor will be contrasted with the CC’s teaching on the Immaculate Conception - and this handled from a Biblical perspective:
2Cor 5:14-21 “For the love of Christ impels us, once we have come to the conviction that one died for all; therefore, all have died. He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer. So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”
As I understand the situation with the Immacuate Conception - we fist see that God’s Plan was initially revealed in the Garden of Eden as seen in Gen3:14-15 "Then the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” Where Mary as the Mother of Christ would be an instrument of God in the defeat of Satan.
The second part of God’s Plan is demonstrated in Luke’s account of what happened after the angel Gabriel visited Mary and then Mary went to visit Elizabeth (Lk 1:39-49) “During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” And Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
By a special grace of God, Mary - a human being - was spared the effects and stain of the sin of Adam. This was because of God’s special grace and not due to any merit on the part of Mary. As we read this account from Luke, the humility expressed by the Mother of God is profound.
Now, we want to contrast these Scriptures with the idea that somehow the CC is in violation of Scripture because “…it does not seem to fit”? Actually, I do not think it fits at all - but, that is just a personal opinon.
Paul was writing to the Believers in Corinth for a very special purpose - and, even though there is an abundance of metaphor in this section - adding Mary to what he was talking about would have not been to his purpose. The entire human race was born in sin - except - Mary. Since Mary was not the topic that he was addressing to this particular group in his letter, including her would have been simply going off on a tangent, as I see it.
Christ died for all - and yes, that would mean that in a very real sense, He died for His Mother - but, not because she was in sin. He died for us - and He was not in sin. God’s Plan for our Salvation is very compact: Mary’s being born without sin only makes sense if Christ is going to use her body as His Dwelling Place.
I am guessing that there are very specific instances where the Sacred Writer has a specific intent in what he writes - as he is inspired by God in what is written. Not all verses will mesh like gears - mainly because I do not think they were intended to do so.
My command of languages is limited to English … and unfortunately, I sometimes torture it
I have no knowlede of Greek… but, I don’t think I am alone in that limitation. To develop the idea that Christ died for all of us to free us from sin is correct. Mary is a special case: the one human being out of all human beings to be conceived in the usual way - but - without sin.To use an analogy: the US Congress usually passes bills with the idea of them becoming Laws effecting the entire country. From time to time, however, the Congress writes a bill that effects just one person. The fact that there is a one-person law out there in the legal system of the US does not compromise the rest of the laws written by the Congress. This legislative body was free to pass this individual act - and did so. God was free to exempt Mary from Original Sin - and, at the same time provide us with a sinless Savior to be sacrificed in our place. Thank God for such Love.
God bless
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
M
Matariel
Guest
Ok. I’ll go over them again. :coffeeread:oh no, that’s not the problem…that’s one of the premises which is true…I guess just keep reading down the post…#4 & #5 are conclusions
I see your point, but you have to remember two things:
- Mary could be considered in a way “dead in her sin” inasmuch as she needed to be redeemed (in her it was a singular grace bestowed by God at the moment of her conception).
- This verse is speaking generally of the entire, collective, human race.
I agree. But I still don’t see how this nullifies my above points. You have to remember also that St. Paul is speaking in general terms.
M
Matariel
Guest
W
With_Questions
Guest
Oh really??
There is absolutely no way for the Bible to be the inspired word of God and Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide to be true?
I would love to see this proof sometime.
But it is late, tomorrow I am busy, it is Christmastime, and I am not in the mood for arguing over the internet now anyway.
But just because you think they are debunked, it does not necessarily follow that they have been proven Scripturally false.
H
Henning
Guest
Thanks Tom…
“mesh like gears”…verse gear meshing I’ve just assumed…maybe the sprockets don’t need to line up so precisely…
I have to think about your post some more. H
M
Matariel
Guest
Sola Scriptura is self-refuting anyway-- I don’t see a list of canon in the Scriptures and I don’t even see the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Go figure.
L
Luke65
Guest
Your wish is my command:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:15)
- Sola Scriptura falsified.
- Sola Fide falsified.
H
Henning
Guest
so I **can **say ‘Mary was dead in her sins’…when…like before she was conceived…‘Mary was dead in sinfullness before she was conceived’…she was dead before she was conceived…or something like that??? (me :hypno:…
)
W
With_Questions
Guest
Well first of all if you want to prove something as Scripturally false, you need to very accurately know what it is that you are attempting to debunk.Sola Scriptura is self-refuting anyway-- I don’t see a list of canon in the Scriptures and I don’t even see the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Go figure.
Otherwise you are disproving a strawman. And disproving a strawman disproves nothing.
The phrase “Sola Scriptura” does not even have a verb. You can not debunk a sentence fragment. So first of all you would need a common definition of “Sola Scriptura” before you attempt to debunk it. You just can’t debunk the phrase “Sola Scriptura”.
N
notsmart
Guest
I can’t comment without violating Ag_not’s rules. Therefore, I remain silent.
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Matariel
Guest
Everyone (the entire human race) was “in Adam” in a certain sense, so what I said is completely reasonable. But then this get’s into the Traducian vs. Creationist view of the soul-- but that’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms…so I can say ‘Mary was dead in her sins’…when…like before she was conceived…‘Mary was dead in sinfullness before she was conceived’…she was dead before she was conceived…or something like that??? (me :hypno:…
Sola Scriptura is a doctrine. It means “Scripture alone [is sufficient in all religious/doctrinal matters]”. I thought as a Protestant you would know what* Sola Scriptura *is…
L
liberalcatholic
Guest
To put it in simple terms:
Mary’s parents most likely where not only Jewish but specially chosen by God because of their humility and devotion to Him. They lived their marriage chaste, being happing with the children God had given them and devoting their whole lives to raising their them and helping those in need. Something beyond their own nature brought them together to concieve once more, the Holy Spirit. This is my best explanation for the immaculate conception of Mary and why she was not effected by original sin, and live totally obedient to God.
If you can not understand this ask for God to come into your life and search for him with all your heart, repent of your sins, pray for the Holy Spirit to come into you. We are not able to see and understand our faith with out all three persons of the Trinity. Read The Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said the Church was under Peter, and Peter said that it was under those he assigned it to and the gates of Hell cannot destroy it. Therefor it exists and is available to all people. We are not perfect, but the Church is. The Church are the parts of the people that represent Jesus, in tradition and scripture. The Bible is half of the Church truth, whatever is supported by the Bible and visa versa then is the Church. The Catholic Tradition is living the Bible in truth, though some of it members have fell short. Jesus said that unless those members repent, they will be replaced with others.
Let us build each other up for holieness.
Mary’s parents most likely where not only Jewish but specially chosen by God because of their humility and devotion to Him. They lived their marriage chaste, being happing with the children God had given them and devoting their whole lives to raising their them and helping those in need. Something beyond their own nature brought them together to concieve once more, the Holy Spirit. This is my best explanation for the immaculate conception of Mary and why she was not effected by original sin, and live totally obedient to God.
If you can not understand this ask for God to come into your life and search for him with all your heart, repent of your sins, pray for the Holy Spirit to come into you. We are not able to see and understand our faith with out all three persons of the Trinity. Read The Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said the Church was under Peter, and Peter said that it was under those he assigned it to and the gates of Hell cannot destroy it. Therefor it exists and is available to all people. We are not perfect, but the Church is. The Church are the parts of the people that represent Jesus, in tradition and scripture. The Bible is half of the Church truth, whatever is supported by the Bible and visa versa then is the Church. The Catholic Tradition is living the Bible in truth, though some of it members have fell short. Jesus said that unless those members repent, they will be replaced with others.
Let us build each other up for holieness.
S
steve_b
Guest
N
notsmart
Guest
You may hold to Prima Scriptura, but you need to search for Church Millitant on the search feature here. He has debunked biblically the entire concept. In fact, if you wish me to invite him to this thread, when he comes online, I bet he will have something to add to this thread for you. All from scripture, and logic.
Up for it? Let me know I will PM him right away. Or you can, if you want to have a biblical battle.
Up for it? Let me know I will PM him right away. Or you can, if you want to have a biblical battle.
A
Ag_not
Guest
Steve b - Strike one - 9:07pm - Missing a yummy chocolate cookie and getting slapped with synthetic cream. Priority Disorder
M
Martin777
Guest
Game on. As I said last night, let’s discuss what I think is far and away the most (name removed by moderator)ortant deviation from Scripture by the Catholic church, the break from the pure gospel of grace. Let’s talk about what Paul meant in Ephesians 2:8,9 and look at it in light of Romans 3 and 4. We could throw in that passage where Jesus was asked, “What must we do to work the works of God?” Do you remember what he said?
J
Jean_1958
Guest
Jesus spoke Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew. In Semetic languages, there is no word for cousin. Most modern languages have a word for cousin. Semetic languages use the word brother when referring to cousin. This is true of modern Arabic which is also a Semetic language. No word for cousin so the word for brother is used.
Hope this helps.
Jean
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