Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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Hisalone you are “naming” the issues. You must state your case - in other words produce the evidence, the proof - scriptural proof - how else are you going to convince the OP?

:confused:
OK AG_ what do I win?:bounce:

Luke23:
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, F156 save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, F157 remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
 
The word Purgatory is not in the Bible and neither is the word Trinity, Incarnation and for that matter the word BIBLE.

But that aside, theChurch gave the name purgatory to the final purification of the elect which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

Matthew 12:32 “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit wil not be forgiven, either in this age or IN THE AGE TO COME.”

This passage refers to a time beyond the earth where we can still be forgiven and make reparation for our sins. It cannot be Hell because reparation for sin is no longer possible there and in Heaven it is no longer needed. This state where the sin against the Son of Man can be forgiven in the age to come, theChurch calls purgatory.

Purgatory (from the latin purgare - purge - to cleanse).

In 2 Macabees 12:44-46 (which you probably will not have in your Bible since the protestants have exised that book) we find Judas Maccebeus atoning for the dead to make reparation for their sins.

In 2 Tim 1:16-18, St Paul prays for the dead Onesiphorous that God grant him mercy. If there is only Heaven or Hell, it would be pointless for Paul to pray for him becuase if Onesiphorous is in Hell there is not helping him and if in Heaven he does not need it.

In Rev 21:27 it says that nothing unclean will enter heaven. Now if you have professed Jesus as Lord and Saviour and truly believe in Him but happened to tell a lie just before you die, does that mean that you will end up in Hell since according to this verse, you are unclean ,so cannot enter heaven.

And Jews believed in it way before Christ’s time. Orthodox Jews of today still pray the Mourners’s Qaddish for 11 moths after a death to speed up the purification process.
2Tim 1:16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day–and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me F3 at Ephesus.

This verse is justification of Purgatory?
Purgatory is nonBiblical because it is not in the bible.
 
Hi, benedictus2

This is one of the nicest and most insightful posts I have read. 🙂
When the woman said blessed is the womb that bore you, here she was exulting Mary for having conceived Jesus.

But Jesus is saying No, no, no. You got it all wrong. It is not because of her conceiving Me that she is blessed. Rather it is because she did the will of the Father. In another passage, recall Christ saying it is not those who call him Lord, Lord who will enter the kingdom but rather those who DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER.

Of all of humanity, Mary gave the most perfect yes, to God’s will.

Keep up the good work… 🙂

God bless
 
CHESTERTONRULES;4533366:
The thing that really helped me see this even clearer was when I saw what Paul says happened to us on the cross. Not only did He die there, not only were ALL our sins placed there(I hadn’t committed the first sin back then!), but my *old man *
died there too. That’s why II Cor 5:17 says “If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold ALL things are made new.” --Douay You either believe that or you don’t. If you are a Christian (are you?) then you suffered the death penalty at the cross and you came out of the grave with Christ. Friend, you are “seated with Christ in the heavenly places!”

Not yet!

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but **he who does the will **of My Father.”

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Chronicles 15:2 “If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”
 
The Assumption of Mary. Absolutely no Biblical testament that she was brought to Heaven in such a manner.
That wasn’t the question.

Does it contradict scripture?

Absolutely not. We know that this has happened before in scripture, so it clearly is not contradicted by the bible.
 
OK AG_ what do I win?:bounce:

Luke23:
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, F156 save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, F157 remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Nothing yet!

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Keep Trying!
 
2Tim 1:16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day–and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me F3 at Ephesus.

This verse is justification of Purgatory?
Purgatory is nonBiblical because it is not in the bible.
C’mon Hisalone - you can do better than that! Benedictus has provided you with a credible argument and this is all you can come up with? You have not disproved anything.

The Trinity is not in the Bible
The Incarnation if not in the Bible


but one can infer.

Do you not believe that we must be cleansed of our sin in order to face God in heaven?

:confused: :confused:
 
Regarding communion of the saints:

I’ll concede from the start that this case is not explicit in scripture. However, I think the implicit case is compelling. I’ll attempt to make four main points:
  1. Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people are aware of what is happening on earth.
  2. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.
  3. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.
  4. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.
1)Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people aware of what is happening on earth.

Mark 12

Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses,‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

In Heb 11, the achievements of the Old Testament saints are reviewed with an emphasis on their faith. It ends by stating that they had not yet received salvation:

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Heb 12 starts like this:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

I believe this makes the case that those who have died physically are still alive and that they are witnesses to what occurs on earth.
  1. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.
Luke 15

7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
  1. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.
Rev. 8

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.
  1. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.
James 5

The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

To summarize, Catholics, as well as several other faiths, believe that once we are alive in Christ we remain alive in Christ. We also believe that those in heaven are aware and concerned about those still on earth. For this reason, we seek their intercessions given that they have been deemed righteous.
 
2Tim 1:16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day–and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me F3 at Ephesus.

This verse is justification of Purgatory?
Purgatory is nonBiblical because it is not in the bible.
One among many.

Here’s a couple more:

1 Cor 3

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”
 
Nothing yet!

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Keep Trying!
**Which reminds me of an old joke. A guy asks God if a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. God replys Yes my Son, “A million years is like a second and a second is like a million years!” The guy askes is it true you will give use any thing we ask you for. God replied “Of course my son!” The guy said: “God can I have a Million dollars?” God said “Of course my son, wait a second!”

God Bless
**
 
If you isolate that verse on it’s own like you have done, than that means Christ has sinned as well for All would mean All. No exceptions.
There is a biblical truth- that all of scripture is the truth. This means for anything to be true it must line up to all of scripture.
The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. (Ps 119:160)

Now that I say that If Jesus is God how can He sin?

Your objection and your exception for Mary does not hold up to scripture this is a false doctrine.

AG_ where is my prize?:extrahappy:
 
As per the other thread last night, I’m throwing down the gauntlet.

The Challenge:

Give me ONE example of something the Catholic church teaches, that is AGAINST Scripture. Read that again. Carefully. A SINGLE teaching, by the Catholic Church, that is AGAINST, or in other words, ANTI - Biblical.

I
Over to you guys …
Ag_ Would not a better approach for your eternal soul be What does the bible say on this or on that rather than attempting to dispprove a negative. One approach is about finding the truth of a thing the other is trying to get a particular belief off the hook so to speak.
 
One among many.

Here’s a couple more:

1 Cor 3

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”
In both instances you have read Purgatory into the text when it is not there.
 
As per the other thread last night, I’m throwing down the gauntlet.

The Challenge:

Give me ONE example of something the Catholic church teaches, that is AGAINST Scripture. Read that again. Carefully. A SINGLE teaching, by the Catholic Church, that is AGAINST, or in other words, ANTI - Biblical.

I believe there is none. That is partly why I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true apostolic church, founded on Christ, and protected for all times against being overwhealmed by Hell.

However, I am not yet confirmed or baptised.

If you really believe my soul is in danger, then show me just ONE area of teaching by the Catholic Church that flies in the face of Scripture, and I will immediately quit RCIA. I will pm someone here we can trust, Fathers number, so he can confirm I have quit RCIA.

I have a very open mind, and question everything. Even though I believe, I have not stopped questioning and dont believe I ever will as it’s not my nature. So show me.

Now, discussion.

The rules are, we are polite and charitable at all times. At NO point will name calling or insults be tolerated in this thread. Vearing too far off topic will be redirected back to the issue at hand. You’ll get a warning for being rude, beligerant, uncharitable, dishonest, insulting, persisting with a derailing issue, etc. 3 warnings and you disqualify yourself from taking part any further in this thread. The same rules apply to me. Humor is encouraged, but not sarcism.

Over to you guys …
Here is your challenge Ag Not. It is my understanding that you are in RICA, and therefore you have not been baptized (baptismal regeneration). In Roman Catholic theology, you have not been regerenerated (born from above) and do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you since you are still in the flesh.

The Bible teaches that a sinner is born from above through hearing the gospel and receiving the good news, seperate and apart from water baptism. The Holy Spirit dwells in you if you believe in what God testifies about His Son. If you have not been born from above, you do not have the Spirit of Christ in you; therefore you cannot discern spiritual truth according to the Bible. So, which is it? Do you have the Spirit dwelling in you, and have you been reconciled to God, and have peace with God through Christ, or are you still in the flesh and are God’s enemy?

1 Corinthians 2

Proclaiming Christ Crucified

2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, [1] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony [2] of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
 
That wasn’t the question.

Does it contradict scripture?

Absolutely not. We know that this has happened before in scripture, so it clearly is not contradicted by the bible.
That’s an ambiguous way of putting it; obviously, it’s not without some basis from Hebrew Scripture, but unless the Roman Catholic Church had some other special book in which it found the assumption of Mary, it’s a “light” contradiction.
 
As The Blessed Mother is the Mother of all generations I honor her as my mother. I was instructed to honor my mother and father in the ten commandments. I place her on a pedestal and there she will stay. Jesus performed his first public miracle at her request. The love of Jesus for his Mother compels me to follow his example to love her as well. 🙂
 
C’mon Hisalone - you can do better than that! Benedictus has provided you with a credible argument and this is all you can come up with? You have not disproved anything.

The Trinity is not in the Bible
The Incarnation if not in the Bible


but one can infer.

Do you not believe that we must be cleansed of our sin in order to face God in heaven?

:confused: :confused:
What Benedictus has done is take verses out of context and (name removed by moderator)ut a doctrine in where there is none.
 
OK AG_ what do I win?:bounce:

Luke23:
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, F156 save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, F157 remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
W:shrug: here is my prize?

A who has been a sinner his whole life finds Jesus in his last hour yet does not go to Purgatory.

my prize my prize:extrahappy:
 
As The Blessed Mother is the Mother of all generations I honor her as my mother. I was instructed to honor my mother and father in the ten commandments. I place her on a pedestal and there she will stay. Jesus performed his first public miracle at her request. The love of Jesus for his Mother compels me to follow his example to love her as well. 🙂
IMO…this appears to be a statement of idol worship. We are only to put God up on a pedestal to worship. Why is this posting not breaking the first commandment? Do you put your Mom and Dad on a pedestal? We are to honor our Father and Mother, and the parents are to point their children to God in Christ.
 
What Benedictus has done is take verses out of context and (name removed by moderator)ut a doctrine in where there is none.
I am cooking dinner and before I burn the food here is another one on Purgatory:

Jesus’ words: “I tell you that you will not get out till you have paid the last penny” (Luke 12:59) cannot refer to hell, from where there is no release.

I have more but must go now.

Ciao
 
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