Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[Ag_not]

Ya gotta be really GaGa not to get that baby!!!

:bigyikes: CINETTE!!!

though I love you as a sister, I will not spare the :nunchuk:



I’m breathless reading this thread. I intended to get stuck in but to be honest everyone just ran rings around me - by the time I had a little think and tried to compose a reply, there were like 20 most posts

Is it safe yet to conclude, with a concensus, that the Catholic Church does **NOT **in fact teach ANYTHING that is CONTRARY to Scripture Can non catholic christians answer please.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Scratch the whole Mary not sinning thing.

**
Hi Liberal,

You sure are liberal. You can’t “scratch” the whole Mary not sinning thing. That is Church dogma! Who has taught you our faith? **

This is the way I see it, I am just a lay person. Okay, Mary’s parents devoted their whole beings to the God of Abraham, Jacob, Moses; so basically the God of their people and the Old Testament, which I believe is the God that created everything. Okay so they were kind of holy people. They got to a point where they were waiting for God to save them and living their life for him. In this process they conceived a baby girl.
**
Will this get to the part where Mary had a little lamb? That is another fairey tale!**

She was special,

**
YES!**

because her parents conceived so free from sin, because they repented and were meek and all the other good stuff.

NOPE!

Then Mary grew up being loved by her parents unconditionally because that is what the God of the Jews does. Through this special grace of her parents she was like not effected by sin like normal people, though she was still a person.

The parents of Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, were St. Joachim and St. Anne, natives of Bethlehem who lived in Nazareth. They had no speial grace to give her.

Basically I can admit that I have done somethings in life that were kind of completely against God, though maybe I was not completely aware, I still did them.

**Welcome to the human race! Basically I can admit that I have done many things in life that were completely against God, though I was completely aware, I still did them. **

Mary never did this because of the grace she recieved from God.

**Now you got it! **

Then she was obedient to her parents so she married this Joseph, who was also pretty remarkable. Before their marriage the Holy Spirit came to Mary to concieve the Son of God, Jesus.

** The Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is the belief that God preserved Mary from any inclination to sin, the inheritance of original sin passed on to all mankind from our first parents, Adam and Eve. The belief of the Immaculate Conception of Mary says nothing about Mary and personal sin (Rom 3:23).

Christian belief holds that every human being through faith and through baptism is freed from sin - original sin and personal sin - through the grace of Jesus Christ. Roman Catholic Christians simply claim that Mary was the first one to whom this was done.

The basis for the belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary can be found in the Biblical revelation of holiness and the opposite of that state, sinfulness.

God is revealed as perfect interior holiness.

Is 6:3 “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!” they (the Seraphim) cried one to the other. No sin or anything tainted with sin can stand in the face of the holiness of God. “Enmity” is that mutual hatred between Mary and sin, between Christ and sin."

Gen 3:15 " I will put enmity between you (the serpent, Satan) and the woman (Mary), and between your offspring (minions of Satan) and hers (Jesus); He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

For the birth of God as a human being, God was interested in the condition of the mother’s womb. For even a great, but imperfect, judge of Israel, Samson, God was directive about the state of the mother during the pregnancy. The request for the mother to be pure is repeated for emphasis.

Judges 13:3-4 "An angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Though you are barren and have had no children, yet you will conceive and bear a son. Now, then, be careful to take no wine or strong drink and to eat nothing unclean.”

Judges 13:7 "But he (the angel) said to me, ‘You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine nor strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb, until the day of his death.’ "

Judges 13:13-14 The angel of the LORD answered Manoah, “Your wife is to abstain from all the things of which I spoke to her. She must not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor take wine or strong drink, nor eat anything unclean. Let her observe all that I have commanded her.”

How much more would God be interested in the state of His own mother’s womb?

The salutation of the Angel Gabriel is different from the usual angelic greeting. It indicates that Mary was exceptionally “highly favored with grace” (Greek: charitoo, used twice in the New Testament, in Lk 1:28 for Mary - before Christ’s redemption; and Eph 1:6 for Christ’s grace to us - after Christ’s redemption).

God Bless

**

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Let me go real slow,
Jesus is God so He can not sin.
Mary who was not God did sin becasue there is no out for her.

Jesus is also a man.

Fully man.

 

[Martin777]

Well perhaps when Martin gets back he can answer my question. He stated (paraphrased) in Post 238 that a Christian’s sanctification is completed after death. Now I’ve asked once whether he has a name for that process (Post 240, no response), and twice for confirmation he believes in the process, or not (Post 267 and Post 282, sortof).

Personally, I think he believes in a final purification, since he agrees nothing “unclean” can enter heaven and none of us (pardon if any exceptions are reading) are “unclean” at death. So though he believes in the process Catholics call “purgatory”, he refuses to give his belief form by naming the process. Yet, if I read him right, he wants to condemn (maybe too harsh a word) Catholics for believing something that’s “not in Scripture”.

So, Martin, where do YOU get IN SCRIPTURE your belief in this “sanctification being completed after death” process?

Yup, that’s EXACTLY where we get our belief in purgatory.

Now, I gotto go watch my daughter whip Martin’s son in wrestling… (kidding, of course)

Peace all.

I’m back. You’re daughter was too rough!
OK, first of all It is extremely common teaching in Evangelical circles to see sanctifiction and past, present and future. God’s heart is for our sanctification: “…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.”-Eph 1
The moment we were saved, we became ‘holy ones’. We were set apart, and it is why, in fact, believers are called saints by Paul. It is one of the names he uses to address the church members in the opening verses of Romans, I and II Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and Philemon. Use you concordance and read each verse where Paul uses the word. You will see he clearly uses it as one of the operative terms for the believers of his day. That, my friends, should be an eye-opener in more than one way! “Saint” means set apart one, or sancitified one. A Christian has been set apart for God–forever! And actually, Paul says we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies right now. That’s pretty holy!So that is the past tense sanctification.
Then there is the present tense. Paul says, “This is the will of God, even your sanctification.” He talks about pursuing holiness. The Holy Spirit is working in all true believers to make them like Christ. It is a daily process. In Romans 12 he says not to be “conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of your minds.:” that is present tense sanctification.

But one day the process will be complete. And John says in I John 3 that “when we see Him (at His return) we will be *like Him for we will see Him as He is.” This is inevitable for a believer. *“For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”-Rom 8:29
“We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as *we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. *” Rom 8:22-23. I long for the day when that will be complete. It won’t happen in purgatory; it will happen the moment I see my Savior face to face and lose this “body of death” as Paul calls it.
Does that make any sense?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Realcatholicgk You’re making me feel like Officer Dibble in Topcat I know youre making an infringement, but youre sooo crafty Im finding it hard to cite you for exactly what Im not sure

** Hi Ag_not
Ag_not: I’ll be honest and tell you even the Mods have a hard time figuring out if I actually do “jump” over the line. I only tell the truth and nothing but the truth as I know and understand it. I will admit to leaning on the line sometimes with “attackers”, but I never jump over it! freesmileys.org/smileys/char048.gif** OK, OK, once in a while, I might, but I jump right back!
There are many “hate mongers” what amazes people is they can feel my love I pity not hate the lost sheep that jesus wants us to go out and find and bring back into His fold. I really do want to save my “separated brethren” from eternal damnation. It is a gift from God, He offers salvation to all of us throught Jesus’ dreath and resurrection. We have the right to reject this gift through our free will. This fact goes against three of the five Solas.

By the way, Good catch on Cinette, she is a trouble maker!

God Bless

Hisalone, I really do value your understanding on this post if you would be so kind:

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But one day the process will be complete. And John says in I John 3 that “when we see Him (at His return) we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is.” This is inevitable for a believer.

Even the demons believe.

It is not inevitable, it is the result of our enduring with the help of God’s grace.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Henning]

Is it safe yet to conclude, with a concensus, that the Catholic Church does **NOT **in fact teach ANYTHING that is CONTRARY to Scripture Can non catholic christians answer please.

not really a non Catholic but…

WAIT…if you could…till Benedictus2 (or anyone) answers my post, that’d be #275…someone has to rebut me successfully…actually its not that pressing …

 

[Matariel]

“We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as *we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. *” Rom 8:22-23. I long for the day when that will be complete. It won’t happen in purgatory; it will happen the moment I see my Savior face to face and lose this “body of death” as Paul calls it.
Does that make any sense?

No. Don’t you believe in the ressurection of the human body and their glorification. That’s when the process of “the redemption of our bodies is complete”. And also, the body has nothing to do with Purgatory; Purgatory is where, as Saint Paul states, “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it,
because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done…
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

That’s it! That’s Purgatory (place of purification)! Right in the Scriptures. And some Protestants pride themselves on taking the Scriptures literally, but then explain away this passage, the one about Onisephorus, John 6 and John 21, and others, saying things like, “well, of course it’s not literal.” When it couldn’t be plainer.

Another apparent reference to Purgatory comes from a parable in Luke 12:35-48 where Jesus teaches of the doctrine of final judgement. Here Jesus speaks of a master leaving his servants and then returning at a later time to exact judgment. Of special note are verses 47-48 where Jesus says “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating shall receive a** light beating**.” Indeed in Scripture, the “light beating” doesn’t correspond to any other final judgment scenerio-- except one-- Purgatory! What else could it be?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Notsosmart,

You know, I have read and struggled through these posts that can be essentially summed up as various flavors of OSAS… and I guess the flip side to that is: Never Saved Fakes, Never Saved Damned as articulated below

But, it seems then they were “fakes” or never saved or not born again to begin with.
Because a born again will do things the holy spirit is working in them.
But, if they dont repent of sin, the Holy Spirit is not bothered by that, because they are saved.
But, if they dont repent of sin, they never were saved or not born again to begin with.

Now it could be because it is late, and I’m fatigued … by in the Name of God: What Does It Matter?

We have established groups that have taken St, Paul’s statements about his difficulties and said, (excuse the exaggerated paraphrase) “Hey, man… take it easy - rest - you’ve already won the race… all you have to do is be ‘born again’. And, hey, you’ve done that a long time ago. So, be cool and don’t focus on this sin issue because, as you said, you’re going to sin anyway. Besides, look at the reference above - even the Holy Spirit is not bothered by sin!”

I have this mental picture of the **re-write **of 25th Chapter of Matthew … you know the one: the General Judgment. And the guys on the left … you know… the ‘fakes’ … the ones who called the Name of the Lord, but really weren’t saved (but, of course they didn’t know that…) they just failed to actually find out in time. Well, it is off to Hell for this crew. You see, it didn’t matter … at least not to the ‘Saved’ - they were out there sinning but, apparently in such a way as to please God - because, after all, OSAS… and that comes directly from our fanciful interpretation of St. Paul.

Of course this **re-write **is totally fictional. The confusion, at least in my opinion rests on just who is faithful and who has free will. If God is faithful and says He will not abandon us … does that imply that we are faithful and we won’t abandon Him? I don’t think so. How about this: If God allows us to exercise our free will, then we can - with His Grace - chose to believe and follow in the foot steps of Christ. We can also change our minds and look back after we have “put our hand to the plow” (Lk 9:62) and renounce God, and sin against the Holy Spirit. I am left with the mental picture of someone actually doing this … and then realizing that they have made the major error…and begin to say, “Lord, Lord…” it is about at this time that the actual description in Matthew 25 takes on its intended meaning.

While we are still in Matt 25, take a look at the parable of the ten virgins. As the story could be **re-written to more closely follow the OSAS thinking **… when the foolish ones knocked on the door and announced who they were, the Bridegroom could have said, "Hey, you were pretty good girls…come on in there is pleanty of wine and snacks in the kitchen (the ones who remember to bring the oil are in the Dining Room…) But, you know… this really isn’t the way the story went. The door was shut and these foolish virgins were out in the darkness,

I guess a compelling argument could have been made that they thought they were ‘Saved’ because they were born again (they were virgin, they brought their lamps (sans oil), they even went to sleep just like the others did! And, if it hadn’t been for those wise - but obviously selfish- virgins … well, we all would have made it to the wedding feast. But, you know… that version of the story just falls short.

God won’t abandon us. We can refuse His Grace at any time and abandon God. It makes precious little difference what we think of being ‘Born Again’ if we wind up Stillborn or Miscarried through our own fault. God knows who is really saved - that is His business. Our business is to do our best with His Grace to cooperate with His Grace - to do (‘works’) His will so that we may be with Him in Heaven. And, friends, anything short of this is just wishful thinking.

God Bless

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Again the all who Christ died for has to be the same set of all that were dead in sins before Christ died for them since they’re in the same verse as I pointed out in my first post on page #4. So that if Mary was part of the all that Christ died for therefore Mary and everyone else was dead in sin to begin with. Only thing is, this is not what the CC teaches…QUOTE]

When a woman is born, all the eggs she will ever release are already contained in here ovaries.

Their design(the DNA pattern) was present at conception.

Jesus, the human part, was in Mary at conception.

Note: I don’t think this is Catholic Doctrine, but it is my theory on the reality of the Immaculate Conception from a biological perspective.:ehh:

 

[Martin777]

Even the demons believe.

It is not inevitable, it is the result of our enduring with the help of God’s grace.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

True, and “Faithful is He who calls you, who will also bring it to pass.”-I Thess 5:24 and again, “being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ.”
And then here is the ‘golden chain of redemption’ from Romans 8:
Follow what Paul says happens to ALL those God foreknew. If you fully digest this passage, it will change your life. I mean it!
“28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

QUOTE=Martin777;4537486]True, and “Faithful is He who calls you, who will also bring it to pass.”-I Thess 5:24 and again, “being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ.”

Confidence is hope, not a guarantee.

for the good of those who love him

Is loving God something that comes naturally, or does it take effort and development?

((38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.")))

There is one crucial agent that is not in the list.

Here’s a clue:

2 Chronicles 15:2 “If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you”.

 

[Martin777]

No. Don’t you believe in the ressurection of the human body and their glorification. That’s when the process of “the redemption of our bodies is complete”. And also, the body has nothing to do with Purgatory; Purgatory is where, as Saint Paul states, “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it,
because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done…
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

That’s it! That’s Purgatory (place of purification)! Right in the Scriptures. And some Protestants pride themselves on taking the Scriptures literally, but then explain away this passage, the one about Onisephorus, John 6 and John 21, and others, saying things like, “well, of course it’s not literal.” When it couldn’t be plainer.

Another apparent reference to Purgatory comes from a parable in Luke 12:35-48 where Jesus teaches of the doctrine of final judgement. Here Jesus speaks of a master leaving his servants and then returning at a later time to exact judgment. Of special note are verses 47-48 where Jesus says “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating shall receive a** light beating**.” Indeed in Scripture, the “light beating” doesn’t correspond to any other final judgment scenerio-- except one-- Purgatory! What else could it be?

Fire will test our works to see if they are precious or if they are wood, hay and stubble. Our faith is tested and refined by fire like gold, according to Peter. But the Father will never place his children in a place of suffering for sins. Jesus paid in full for that, and to think that a believer could make up for what Jesus already did on the cross is an afront to that cross and the death of Christ. I seriously believe that.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Fire will test our works to see if they are precious or if they are wood, hay and stubble. Our faith is tested and refined by fire like gold, according to Peter. But the Father will never place his children in a place of suffering for sins. Jesus paid in full for that, and to think that a believer could make up for what Jesus already did on the cross is an afront to that cross and the death of Christ. I seriously believe that.

That’s not what the bible teaches.

If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Slightly off topic, but what does this mean to you:

Col 1
24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
Hi martin,

You said “OK, first of all It is extremely common teaching in Evangelical circles to see sanctifiction and past, present and future.”

I didn’t know from that statement which circles? There are over 100 that I am personally aware of and I don’t think that is really common amoung them is it? . I am sure as with other interdenominational movements it should vary according to the denominational beliefs already in place, doesn’t it? Our christian movement, the Catholic church started 2,000 years ago.The Evangelical movement started around, what 300 or so years ago? I understand it actually helped to divide the original Protestant denominations even further! I think around 6,000 or 8,000 additional sub denominations were made just because of it. Would you argee with that figure or do you think more? I have heard that about 40 % of the “separated brethren” denominations, in the USA designate themselvesas Evangelical in one form or another. Does that automatically make them members of the movement? if so what type of membership certification is there if any. Can groups just say “We are now Evangelical” like they proclain Christianity? This made a myriad of sub denominations within other denominations didn’t it? I don’t think any of the conservative Protestant denominations actually approve of any of the others, do they? I know that the Evangelical movement mostly spread between Pentecostal, SDA, Methodist and our really divided friends of the Baptist persuasion. Aren’t there, in the USA along, around 110 " Evangelical Headquarters"? ( used for lack of a better word like apolostic successor of St Peter, like the Catholic Church has).
Boggles the mind! Such confusion and so many beliefs 1,375 or more WOW. I am glad I am cathoilic it is so much less complicated. We just follow Jesus’ real teachings. No embelishments or changes!

Did you realize that to Catholics Purgatory isn’t a place, it is a process! We, Catholics and even some of your 61,000 protestant denominations hold firmly to the belief that even though saved we continue sinning until death because of our corrupt nature. However, we also agree that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Does your evangelical denomination believe that? I know the OSAS if you believe that, might mess up the real beliefs that the bible teaches.

We also believe that between death and eternal glory there must be ** a sanctification—a purification—of our natures. This purification may take no time, and is a process not a place. According to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. The critical fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that in itself is purgatory by definition—the final purification. Would it be fair to say that this is “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.” in Protestant terms?

God Bless

 

[Ag_not]

Fire will test our works to see if they are precious or if they are wood, hay and stubble.

Our works are the result of our faith, no? Remember faith, without works is dead.

Our faith is tested and refined by fire like gold, according to Peter.

Where and when?

But the Father will never place his children in a place of suffering for sins.

We are all God’s children. But Hell is standing room only. How did that happen then?

Jesus paid in full for that,

He did, but we have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, we have a role to play, and we can make a mess of it.

 

[Ag_not]

not really a non Catholic but…

WAIT…if you could…till Benedictus2 (or anyone) answers my post, that’d be #275…someone has to rebut me successfully…actually its not that pressing …

Sure. Im still waiting on Hisalone

Henning

Ag_not

 

[Matariel]

I see noöne responded to my posts…

 

[Martin777]

That’s not what the bible teaches.

If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Slightly off topic, but what does this mean to you:

Col 1
24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

When I stand at the Bema (not the Great White Throne) judgement, my works will be thrown in the fire, so to speak. Only the gold and gems will survive the fire. If there are some, I will get rewards! If there aren’t, that will be sad, but I will be saved. Friend, there simply is no more wrath for the child of God. If you dont see it you don’t truly know what happened on the cross. God emptied his wrath on his Son. But only those who turn to Him take advantage of that. Have you??

 

[Martin777]

Realcatholicgk:
The most Christlike people I have ever met don’t believe that. And I have known a bunch of them. Imperfect, but godly! It is because they allow Christ to sanctify them daily. And for millions of Christians who read the scriptures and obey them, the notion of purgatory never occurs to them, because it simply is not apparent in the Book God left us with!