Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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Martin777 said:
The most Christlike people I have ever met don’t believe that. And I have known a bunch of them. Imperfect, but godly! It is because they allow Christ to sanctify them daily. And for millions of Christians who read the scriptures and obey them, the notion of purgatory never occurs to them, because it simply is** not apparent in the Book God left us with!**/QUOTE]

I’m curious about this statement…

What do you mean by “the book God left us with?”

How did He give us this book, in your opinion? Did Jesus hand the apostles a book before He ascended into heaven?
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Ag_not said:
Sure. Im still waiting on Hisalone 😃

Henning

Ag_not
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All right, so have we addressed those verses I proposed yesterday?–Eph 2:8,9; Romans 3-4 on “faith apart from any works of the law” And the one where Jesus is asked, “WHAT MUST WE DO TO WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?” (Something every earnest Catholic want to know.) His response? Can you take it?.."Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in Him whom He has sent.” Because out of true believing flows everything else–forgiveness, salvation, and genuine good works from a liberated, greatful heart.
 
AshleyBelle said:
Totally off topic…

But those smilies …the crazy super charged bouncing off the walls make you feel a little nutty smilies…

Totally just made me think of my kiddos! 😛

Says a quick THANK YOU prayer that the three of them are SOUND asleep right now

heeeehehehee
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I’m getting seasick!
 
AshleyBelle said:
Martin777;4537751:
The most Christlike people I have ever met don’t believe that. And I have known a bunch of them. Imperfect, but godly! It is because they allow Christ to sanctify them daily. And for millions of Christians who read the scriptures and obey them, the notion of purgatory never occurs to them, because it simply is** not apparent in the Book God left us with!**
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/QUOTE]

I’m curious about this statement…

What do you mean by “the book God left us with?”

How did He give us this book, in your opinion? Did Jesus hand the apostles a book before He ascended into heaven?

I think you know how the Canon was formed.
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I woke up this morning to see that there have been several pages of postings which I will only be able to view tonight as I have a busy day ahead.

I pray that we will have advanced in the discussion; that we will all be more enlightened by the debate; that we will read all the posts studiously and prayerfully. I hope we will be honest and admit if we are wrong.

Otherwise, if we are going to chase our tails around then the whole exercise is pointless and we are fools.

Ciao
Cinette
🙂 Don’t forget we are brothers and sisters in Christ:love: :love:
 
Ag_not said:
Our works are the result of our faith, no? Remember faith, without works is dead.

Where and when?

We are all God’s children. But Hell is standing room only. How did that happen then?

He did, but we have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, we have a role to play, and we can make a mess of it.
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That is where you err my friend. We are not all God’s children. We are all his creations. Jesus told some very religious leaders, “You are of your father, the devil.” Paul in Ephesians calls the world “children of wrath”. (Eph 2:3) You were born by nature a child of the evil one. That is why Jesus said you MUST be born again. That is why He suffered the wrath of God in our place. Until a person sees the truth of this paragraph, they are without hope, no matter how religious they are or how many verses they can talk about.
 
Cinette said:
I woke up this morning to see that there have been several pages of postings which I will only be able to view tonight as I have a busy day ahead.

I pray that we will have advanced in the discussion; that we will all be more enlightened by the debate; that we will read all the posts studiously and prayerfully. I hope we will be honest and admit if we are wrong.

Otherwise, if we are going to chase our tails around then the whole exercise is pointless and we are fools.

Ciao
Cinette
🙂 Don’t forget we are brothers and sisters in Christ:love: :love:
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Some people are as Paul describes in II Tim 3:7–“always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” An amazing statement.
 
Martin777 said:
All right, so have we addressed those verses I proposed yesterday?–Eph 2:8,9; Romans 3-4 on “faith apart from any works of the law” And the one where Jesus is asked, “WHAT MUST WE DO TO WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?” (Something every earnest Catholic want to know.) His response? Can you take it?.."Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in Him whom He has sent.” Because out of true believing flows everything else–forgiveness, salvation, and genuine good works from a liberated, greatful heart.
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Did he say the ONLY thing you had to do was to believe? I seem to remember Him saying something like “I tell you the truth. Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

So it seems like you have to more than just BELIEVE.
 
Ag_not said:
:bigyikes: CINETTE!!!

:hmmm: though I love you as a sister, I will not spare the :nunchuk:

😛

I’m breathless reading this thread. 👍 I intended to get stuck in but to be honest everyone just ran rings around me - by the time I had a little think and tried to compose a reply, there were like 20 most posts :eek: 😃

Is it safe yet to conclude, with a concensus, that the Catholic Church does **NOT **in fact teach ANYTHING that is CONTRARY to Scripture 🤷 Can non catholic christians answer please.
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Check my posts.
 
Indyann said:
Did he say the ONLY thing you had to do was to believe? I seem to remember Him saying something like “I tell you the truth. Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

So it seems like you have to more than just BELIEVE.
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You must believe in the Real Presence, in order to even obey Jesus here.
You must take him at face value.
 
AshleyBelle said:
I was serious. You’re taking that scripture to mean ALL have sinned and fallen short.

If you want to use that logic, then you must apply it to ALL and that includes Jesus.

The passage you quoted is not meant to say ALL including Jesus…it is referring to our state because of original sin. Mary was saved and preserved from that stain of sin from the moment of her conception. We can read this to say ALL in the sense that all except Jesus and Mary fall short of the Glory of God. Or…we could say that All INCLUDING Mary would fall short of the glory of God, without Jesus, our savior:)
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Which is the same point I raised with Hisalone. Chopping the Word of God is not a good way to prove a point. The intent of the author has to be taken into consideration.
 
Hisalone said:
He said Paradise. Why dont you believe Him?
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Jesus ALSO said, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; [Jn 20:17]

Jesus said this 3 days after HIS crucifixion, which means He wasn’t in paradise with the good thief as He promised? Did Jesus contradict Himself? No. But where was He?

Peter tells us Jesus

18 being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, , [1 Pet 3:…]

Okay, Jesus went immediately to preach to the souls in prison after His death. He said He was going to paradise with the good thief. So you ask, what gives?

Punctuation, wasn’t introduced to scripture till AFTER the printing press was invented in the 15th century. Before THAT, scripture looked like one giant run-on sentence with no punctuation marks.

You’re getting stuck on where a comma is placed on a word. Before the 15th century there WAS no punctuation in scripture. There were no commas to trip over.

Read the statement without ANY punctuation like it would have been prior to the 15th century.

OR

move the comma

from

Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise

To

Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

🙂
 
Hisalone said:
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the “greatest” of church fathers; known as “The Golden Mouthed.” A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From “The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism” by Malcolm Hay
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Okay, I will take this quote at face value for now and concede that you may be right about these two being anti-semitic even though you have posted misquote and mistatements on the Popes before. I really do not have time to research it but if anyone else knows anything about this feel free to set Hisalone right.

Having said that though, it does not make a difference to the point being discussed because your rebuttal is what is known as the fallacy of ad hominem.

Ad Hominen: consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking a person’s character or belief rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The only time their anti-semitism would matter is if the issue in question is about the persecution of jews or something like that.

Whether they are anti-semite or not does not invalidate the veracity of their teachings. The Church Fathers going way back to the early Christians believed in purgatory (and you have to bear in mind that not all church fathers are anti-semite even if some of them are if they are at all). Orthodox Jews as I mentioned before believed in it,
 
Hisalone said:
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benedictus2:
Okay, in case you missed it, here is my point regarding that passage:
  1. Paul was praying for mercy for a dead Onesiphorus.
NO IT IS NOT. IT IS ASKING FOR MERCY TO THE HOUSEHOLD KINDA LIKE DAVID FOR JOHNATHNS HOUSEOLD.
where is my prize?:confused:
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Okay Petal, Verse 16 you are right. He is asking for mercy for the household

Verse 18 goes:
"May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus. "
Clear?
 
Henning said:
Anyone seen Benedictus (I can wait)?

Oh my.…Benedictus, if you read 1 Cor 5:14 that way I can see how you came up with that set of negative conclusions…but may I humbly submit fine sir that you’re reading the verse…BACKWARDS. Let’s see, I need an analogy…ok,

Analogy to the way I read “one died for all; therefore, all have died”:‘I wrote this post therefore I turned on my computer’. Which would mean in time that I turned on the computer to begin with and then wrote the post, or “all had died/were dead in sin to begin with then Christ died for all”. Which makes sense…

Do you see it? If you don’t then all you’ll come up with is crummy conclusions.

Again the all who Christ died for has to be the same set of all that were dead in sins before Christ died for them since they’re in the same verse as I pointed out in my first post on page #4. So that if Mary was part of the all that Christ died for therefore Mary and everyone else was dead in sin to begin with. Only thing is, this is not what the CC teaches…
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It doesn’t matter. What makes your conclusion wrong is the IN SIN bit.

Let’s reverse the quote. All died in sin, therefore Christ died for all.

The contentious point “WE ALL DIED IN SIN” still remains. If we died in sin then the only destination is hell no two ways about it. And that is why I can come up with all sort of ridiculous possibilities. Does that make sense?

The whole point of the cross is that we will not have to die in sin because Christ died for us while we were still sinners. Now, to die in sin may be true for say those who died prior to the advent of Christ. But that will not be true for for those who have been baptized in Christ and have lived a life of holiness until death. These people will not die in sin. Come to think of it, we need not die in sin because at the cross He has conquered sin.

You put forth two choices: “to sin” or “in sin”. You picked in sin.

It is this choice that makes the whole conclusion wrong.

Perhaps that is why Paul left it at “all died”. You added your own little conclusion to it which made a whole world of difference in an attempt to prove the error of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

It is very much like Luther adding the word alone when it is not there just so he can prove a point. We must not put words into the Bible because we will end up mangling Sacred Scripture.
 
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