Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[Hisalone]

Sounds like bet to me!

Let’s make the wager clear: if the majority of posters agree that Adam and Eve were God’s perfect creation - in body and soul before they exercised their God-given free will and chose sin - then you will either respond to the questions asked and stop being insulting or just be quiet.

If the majority respond that Adam and Eve were not God’s perfect creation - in body and soul before the fall, then you just continue as you have been and I will drop out of the thread.

The operative Biblical section is Gen 2:7-25

You’re on.

God Bless!

Do you have any idea what the glory of God means?

Neither did Adam nor Eve fell short of the glory of God before the fall.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Do you have any idea what the glory of God means?

Neither did Adam nor Eve fell short of the glory of God before the fall.

Did God create them with a fallen nature?

At the beginning of creation, when He created them in His own image… were they “short of His glory?”

 

[tassitus]

I believe God to do what He says. Im funny like that. He has said ALL and I believe all.

Two quick and easy questions:

1. Does ALL include my 5-year-old darling daughter?
2. Do you believe the same with NONE, meaning NONE without exception?

 

[Hisalone]

:hypno:

Real simple

All have sinned
Mary is not given an exception to this rule.
So Mary has sinned.
To say otherwise is contrary to the bible.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Interesting Im willing to wager that many would disagree with your statement.

Not if they understand it.

Please do share. What does Romans 3:23 mean?

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Sinning causes one to fall short of the glory of God. This verse does not say, first, all have sinned, and second, all are short of the glory of God.

It is not saying two things here, but one. HOWEVER, even if you were to argue that the verse gives both concepts, and not simply one concept, then I must conclude you believe that we are saying Mary does not fall short of God?

If by saying, “Short of the glory of God”, you mean “like God”, then you are quite confused if you believe Catholics believe Mary was “like God”.

We do not. We believe she was LIKE the first Eve in being PERFECT and she was MADE like this through REDEMPTION from original sin at conception.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Real simple

All have sinned
Mary is not given an exception to this rule.
So Mary has sinned.
To say otherwise is contrary to the bible.

Your formula only works if you buy the calvinistic theology of predestination…or Luther’s idea that we are all like dung hills and Christ merely covers us as snow.

Fortunately we know from Scripture that we are not dung hills. We do not have a “sin nature.”

To be more human is to choose God over sin

To be less human is to choose sin

Humanity was created, perfect, good, and in the image of God. Sin did not “re create” our very nature…unless you want to raise the devil to the status of Creator.

 

[tassitus]

Real simple

All have sinned
Mary is not given an exception to this rule.
So Mary has sinned.
To say otherwise is contrary to the bible.

This makes as much sense as the following:

St, Paul reminded us that “none [are] righteous, no not one; no one understands; no one seeks God. . .” (Rom. 3:10-11).

Okay.

• no one seeks God
• Hisalone is not given an exception to this “rule”
• So Hisalone does not seek God.

“To say otherwise is contrary to the bible.”

Hisalone is right. It’s very simple. Wrong, but simple.

 

[notsmart]

Hisalone, do you believe Adam and Eve were God?
No, of course not.
Hisalone, why do you keep saying catholics elevate Mary to God then? Do catholics also elevate Adam and Eve to God?
No, of course not.
Hisalone, I feel very sad for you that you must make such mental gymnastics regarding Adam and Eve to keep yourself from obsessing about the doctrines on Mary that have kept Christ’s deity/humanity from attack constantly.

 

[tassitus]

Frankly, well, no.

I seems you believe in an INSTANTANEOUS PURGATION after you die. You say this “won’t happen in purgatory” - but as the Catholic Church teaches, this very process you describe IS purgatory - read the catechism - it’s not a place but a process.

Could it be that you believe in the process but not the name?

Drives me NUTS!

Martin, if you’re listening, I’m at the office now and really need to get some work done (so hard to pull away from this thread!). But I would like your comment on this - anytime say, this weekend?

Peace to all during this beautiful Advent.

 

[Hisalone]

Did God create them with a fallen nature?

At the beginning of creation, when He created them in His own image… were they “short of His glory?”

Yes.
OK class your homework assignment is:

What did paradise mean ot a Jew at the time of Jesus.
What does the Glory of God mean in theological terms.
How did the Jews arrive at their cannon.
(hint you have to go back to the Babylonian captivity and work your way foward.If you start at the time of Christ you will miss it.)

Your assigments are due Monday 12/16 @ 21:00EST
Have a nice weekend

 

[wintersnow]

The most Christlike people I have ever met don’t believe that. And I have known a bunch of them. Imperfect, but godly! It is because they allow Christ to sanctify them daily. And for millions of Christians who read the scriptures and obey them, the notion of purgatory never occurs to them, because it simply is not apparent in the Book God left us with!

Wait a minute, hold on to your sock, underware! Houston we have a Problem… I think I just solved it!

Here it is, drum role Please…

Martin said God left them with a book, See. God didn’t leave Catholic’s with a Book. HE LEFT THEM A CHURCH. I see the big problem now!

Now my Man Martin, Gotta Ask, where in that Book does it say God left us a book. Now I know the book, I think I do at least, thatt you are talking about. Now in that BOOK, Jesus said he would leave us a Church!

Now the Church was here long before the book, at least thats what they told me. And thats what the book tells me. But now My Man don’t let me down here. Where does it say that God Left us a book. I am learning so much. At least I think I am, and then get shut down! NO BODY WILL LET ME PLAY! THEY WILL NEVER PLAY WITH ME. I EVEN BRUSHED MY TEETH, PUT ON DEDORANT AND COMBED MY HAIR!

 

[wintersnow]

Yes.
OK class your homework assignment is:

What did paradise mean ot a Jew at the time of Jesus.
What does the Glory of God mean in theological terms.
How did the Jews arrive at their cannon.
(hint you have to go back to the Babylonian captivity and work your way foward.If you start at the time of Christ you will miss it.)

Your assigments are due Monday 12/16 @ 21:00EST
Have a nice weekend

I am not doing my homework. Because the teacher won’t correct mine. So why bother. I guess I will go get out the ole Hank records,]

I’M SO LONESOME I COULD CRY!

 

[Martin777]

Hi Martin,

This is not a response to the above post.

I just want to know if you have addressed my questions on post 169, 174, 175 and 178.

I took a quick look at your posts and it did not seem like you have but I could be wrong there.

If anyone else knows if these questions have been taken up in your own dialogue with Martin, can you quickly give me the relevant post number. It would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

Not sure. I’m on my Blackberry right now. Can you take a look at my recent posts on 'Catholic Church Wrong Part Two and tell me what you think?

 

[Matariel]

Fire will test our works to see if they are precious or if they are wood, hay and stubble. Our faith is tested and refined by fire like gold, according to Peter.

And we ourselves will be saved, but only as through** fire**. You forgot that part.

But the Father will never place his children in a place of suffering for sins.

Um, this is just not so. What about David? Peter? Moses? And a whole slew of others who suffered for their sin even after they repented, suffered a temporal punishment. It’s straight out of the Bible.

Jesus paid in full for that, and to think that a believer could make up for what Jesus already did on the cross is an afront to that cross and the death of Christ. I seriously believe that.

Pft! Please.

I guess 1st Corinthians is an affront to the Cross too.

The fires of Purgatory are the fires of God’s purifying Love. If it wasn’t for Christ on the Cross, there would be no Purgatory. You can’t just toss out verses or paragraphs from the Bible you don’t like. Will you be saved, but “only as through fire?” Or did you throw that phrase out?

 

[theresa_bloom]

Do you have the faith to contain Christ?
Mary said yes can you say yes?

Yes. I do.

Do you?

 

[steve_b]

It is contrary to the bible because Mary is given an exception to sinning when the bible does not give it to her and the bible does say all have sinned.

You know that for sure?

Re: the Immaculate Conception and sinless,

in the angel’s greeting to Mary, (keep in mind Mary is a young teen at this point) The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” [Luke 1:28].

The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word *kecharitomene *χαριτόω charitoō ]. It expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

Tense: Perfect,
Mood: Passive

Perfect tense means having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Therefore, the grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present and into the future.

• So, the grace Mary enjoyed from her beginning (conception), was not a result of the angel’s visit. It extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence. And the archangel Gabriel was addressing her for who she is in the sight of God.
  Sin cannot be in her if she is perfectly and permamently graced.

Passive mood, means it was done to her without her doing anything on her own. It is truly a special gift from God.

Therefore, God made her without sin, just like He made Eve without sin, AND God preserved Mary without sin by a special grace perfectly applied

.

 

[Martin777]

Can you judge a man’s heart to know his intentions when doing the works Jesus tells us to do?

No way! I’m a terrible judge. But more importantly, Paul said not to judge before the time, but to wait til the time when God will judge the secret motives of men’s hearts.

 

[Martin777]

It is not contrary to scripture.

Feel free to point out proof. So far you have failed.

FYI:

Mary is called full of grace, the greek word used was Kecharitomene.

“The ‘perfect’ action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker. How long before is not a consideration but the Greek verbal idea is that the action has already been completed. Time is still secondary but perfected action must imply the past in relationship to the speaker. The person using the word is confessing that the one referred to has already been [graced].”

So, here’s what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us “Kecharitomene” denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:

" ‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).
see members.aol.com/johnprh/conception.html

bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm

Well thanks for the Greek grammar lesson. I studied it for over three years in seminary, but those in the know would probably say your explanation was much adieu about nothing! You quoted A T Robertson, but he would never give the time of day to the notion of Immaculate Conception. Mary had a lot of grace for the task at hand and was blessed to birth the Savior. But nothing in Scripture teaches she was sinless. If she had been, of course, she wouldn’t need a Savior and would miss out on the blessing God reserved for humans in eternity past, something even angels were excluded from

 

[wintersnow]

Do you have the faith to contain Christ?
Mary said yes can you say yes?

Oh Hisalone is this you talking! Now you are talking. But got another dumb question, remember Im the student you don’t like.

You said Mary has the faith to contain Christ. A COMPETED PASS. YEA YOU SHOULD GET A PRIZE FOR THAT.

But now if Mary has the faith to Contain Christ, and she is Full OF Grace, where is there room for sin. I alway’s thought if something was full that means no room Remember when Jesus was being born, They could not find a room all were FULL. No room in the inn. Now Mary had the faith to contain Christ and sin too. Come on now teacher, what does that Mean? Maybe someone else could ask him . He don’t like me. Gotta get back to Hank! I am not the teacher’s pet! As all can see, I am the invisible student!

 

[wintersnow]

Well thanks for the Greek grammar lesson. I studied it for over three years in seminary, but those in the know would probably say your explanation was much adieu about nothing! You quoted A T Robertson, but he would never give the time of day to the notion of Immaculate Conception. Mary had a lot of grace for the task at hand and was blessed to birth the Savior. But nothing in Scripture teaches she was sinless. If she had been, of course, she wouldn’t need a Savior and would miss out on the blessing God reserved for humans in eternity past, something even angels were excluded from

Martin you are right there. And yes Mary did need a savior. That is why we call it the Immaculate Conception. God did indeed save her and guess what from. You got it buddy from all sin. Now if you are saved from all sin, Would that mean your are indeed sinless?