Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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I think that different people find God in different ways. The metaphor I like to use is the old city of Jerusalem, which has 8 different gates to the city. Each gate has its own story and each one leads to Jerusalem.
Well that’s all good and fine, but I don’t want to head to Jerusalem. The next gate I want to hit is the Gate to the Kingdom. And that is the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thats my METAPHOR Valke. JESUS CHRIST. THOUGH HIM, WITH HIM, AND IN HIM. ONE IN BEING WITH THE FATHER NOW AND FOREVER AMEN!
 
Benedictus2 and Angels Unaware :eek:

Stop whispering at the back of the class :tsktsk:

😛

Now, Judges 1:19 - reading my DR Bible, I read the commentry:

was not able to - ie through a cowardly fear of their charriots armed with hooks and scythes and for want of confidence in God.

Rereading the verse again,

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The he in the verse is Judah, not God. God is indeed omnipotent. He created the universe and defeated death. A few iron charriots would not be a problem to Him don’t you think. But He works through his people. To reach people. And people are not infallible or omnipotent.

He was certainly with Peter, and Paul, but not all who heard them converted. In fact, some of those who heard them, put them to death. While Jesus Himself was on earth, His disciples, who had seen Him raise the dead, heal the lepor and the blind, forgive sins, walked away from Him at the last supper.

We have Free Will, and peoples faith can fluctuate or be lost.

I dont see that these examples show a lack of omnipotence on God’s part - rather a lack of understanding and faith on ours.

I also found this from a non catholic site:

Verse 19. And the Lord was with Judah, and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Strange! were the iron chariots too strong for Omnipotence? The whole of this verse is improperly rendered. The first clause, The Lord was with Judah should terminate the 18th verse, and this gives the reason for the success of this tribe: The Lord was with Judah, and therefore he slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, part of the verse either refers to a different time, or to the rebellion of Judah against the Lord, which caused him to withdraw his support. **Therefore the Lord was with Judah, and these were the effects of his protection; but afterwards, when the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim, God was no longer with them, and their enemies were left to be pricks in their eyes, and thorns in their side, as God himself had said. **This is the turn given to the verse by Jonathan ben Uzziel, the Chaldee paraphrast: “And the WORD of Jehovah was in the support of the house of Judah, and they extirpated the inhabitants of the mountains; **but afterwards, WHEN THEY SINNED, they were not able to extirpate the inhabitants of the plain country, because they had chariots of iron.” They were now left to their own strength, and their adversaries prevailed against them. **
From a work called the Dhunoor Veda, it appears that the ancient Hindoos had war chariots similar to those of the Canaanites. They are described as having many wheels, and to have contained a number of rooms.-Ward’s Customs.

I also found this commentary, which goes along the same lines as above:

1.19 ‘And Yahweh was with Judah, and he drove out inhabitants of the hill country, for he could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron.’

The hill country was permanently and solely possessed, but not the coastal plain. The idea is not that Yahweh could not, no such thought was in the writer’s mind, but that Judah failed. God would only help them so far. This may have been because they were dilatory, or because of fear and lack of faith in Yahweh (compare Joshua 17.16 and note the promise for the future in 17.18; see also Judges 4.3). We should note that Joshua was not defeated by the chariots (11.9).

If verse 18 is not read with a negative as LXX, it may be that this indicates that they succeeded at first in initially capturing three of the cities, taking them by surprise by coming from the south, but that their success was only temporary, and that then they were overcome by combined forces with their chariots, and after a time driven out of all. In this respect the non-mention of Ashdod is significant, and if the newly arrived and settled Philistines were expecting an attack from the East they may well have gathered their forces near Gath.

As I said I have not read Judges, and found this a good source for information around the book from a catholic prespective.

As for God’s omnipotence in the Old Testament,

gen. 28: 13-24
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Deut 32: 39
39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

… and about another million referrences.

Thank you for making me look up an area of Scripture I was completely unfamiliar with 👍
 
Jewish people are special and always will be. God knew what he was doing when he chose the Jews.

My husband was an atheist and was converted by a Jew (Gerald Schroeder - Genisis and the Big Bang, The Hidden Face of God). There were also miracles taking place in our lives at the time but when my husband saw the announcement in the paper that there would be a lecture by Schroeder (and then there we were among all the Jews and their little “hats” - what an evening!)

Then because of that miracle of faith I became interested in Jews and read two books on Jewish conversion to the CC. “Bread from Heaven” and more recently “Honey from the Rock”. I know that we should not be envious but when the Jews give an account of their conversion and especially at the moment of their baptism I cannot suppress a feeling of envy because there is a sense of “completion” that is wonderful and miraculous. The conversion of Rabbi Zolli comes to mind - amazing!

So! Yes, I love the Jews. I thank God for them. :love: :love: :love:
I am hanging with you. The Blessed Mother was a Jew. I love their faith, Follow it to the tee, Then Jesus came explained what we did not understand. Jesus never went against the Jewish faith, but the jewish people went against Jesus. Like I said Jesus didn’t change the Jewish scripture he fullfilled it. But not all of the Jewish People went against Jesus. Look at the apostles. Paul is the best example. Jesus said Paul why are you persecuting me. Jesus showed paul the light so to speak.
 
There are probably more examples in the Bible that highlight a God that is not omnipotent then there are that highlight a God that is.

God searches for Adam in the Garden when Adam is “hidden” from him.

God dwells in specific locations throughout the bible. (Comes down from the Mt., stays on the Mt., Leads the Jews in the wilderness, lives in the Temple…

He also needs to go down to Babel to see what is going on.

God feels the need to test Abraham., implying that He is uncertain of the outcome. …

In short, there are many examples of a personfied God with limited abilities in the Bible. And although there are many commentaries explaining why this is and that it is not really a limitation of God, the scripture says what the scripture says.
 
OK Everyone stop !!!

Ive just received a Pm from an admirer who has completely skuttled this thread -

’‘Purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9 and Luke 23:42-43. Jesus’ blood purifies us from all sin.’'

Game Over.

Case Proven.

I hang my head in shame.

How can I possible hope to counter such erudite and eloquent arguement.

Oh, well.

I tried my best.

Thanks everyone - Im outa here …

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:rolleyes:

😛 😛 😛
 
OK Everyone stop !!!

Ive just received a Pm from an admirer who has completely skuttled this thread -

’‘Purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9 and Luke 23:42-43. Jesus’ blood purifies us from all sin.’'

Game Over.

Case Proven.

I hang my head in shame.

How can I possible hope to counter such erudite and eloquent arguement.

Oh, well.

I tried my best.

Thanks everyone - Im outa here …

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:rolleyes:

😛 😛 😛
I must be really dense because all I can say is HUh?
 
youtube.com/watch?v=uezam0yABjk

Here’s a You Tube video of a Protestant figuring out 1 John 1:9 establishes a Biblical requirement for the sacrament of confession. Of course, he doesn’t call it a sacrament because he is Protestant.
 
I must be really dense because all I can say is HUh?
Strangely enough, thats exactly what I said when I read his pm too :confused:

I would go back and link the posts that have addressed these for him, but why :confused: He’s obviously not read anything of the thread so why bother 😦
 
There are probably more examples in the Bible that highlight a God that is not omnipotent then there are that highlight a God that is.

God searches for Adam in the Garden when Adam is “hidden” from him.

God dwells in specific locations throughout the bible. (Comes down from the Mt., stays on the Mt., Leads the Jews in the wilderness, lives in the Temple…

He also needs to go down to Babel to see what is going on.

God feels the need to test Abraham., implying that He is uncertain of the outcome. …

In short, there are many examples of a personfied God with limited abilities in the Bible. And although there are many commentaries explaining why this is and that it is not really a limitation of God, the scripture says what the scripture says.
Well, for one, you’re interpreting the Bible too literally. The literal sense of the Bible is not the only sense. Odviously, these anthropomorphic statements are there to make the Jews (remember, this was before the Incarnation) realize that God is a personal God, and to better lend understanding to the story. The Bible also says that God has hands and feet. Does he literally have hands and feet? (Besides Christ) No, not at all. Pure spirit.

Oh, and that other verse, if you look at it in Hebrew (and even in English if you see that a couple verses before God says He’s not going to drive anyone out, but merely be with them) you can tell it’s a reference to Joshua. not God. It was Joshua who failed to drive out the chariots of iron.

Next question please! :rolleyes:
 
Wow! That’s very powerful!

Okay, here’s my best shot at it.

Scott and Kimberley Hahn, Thomas Howard, Stephen Ray and other converts agonized at the thought of losing their protestant friends should they cross the Tiber when they are seeing more and more clearly how right the Church is and how wrong they have been.
As a matter of fact, they were not far off wrong either. They lost jobs and friends. Scott was subjected to enormous vitriol on one internet site.

But humility and courage triumphed. Unlike Egidio.

Do I get a medal for that or am I way off the mark?:bounce:

Love this : But now he would be imprisoned for the rest of his life – he would be a prisoner of the mind.

Or we can be a prisoner of our prejudices, thereby stopping us from seeing the light that others are throwing on our path.

But, God’s ways are mysterious. He is a God of love and a God of surprises. Hearts melt, minds get opened.

Just you wait.
Yes, Benedictus - you have hit the nail on the head!

It takes courage to say “And to think I was wrong all these years”. One sees this on The Journey Home" series on EWTN. I remember a Baptist Minister who converted and at first he drove a lorry.

There is a book “No Price too High” by Alex Jones of his conversion. In a programme he was asked “And what are you going to do now” (at the time of his conversion he had saved enough money to get by for 4 years) and his response was “I don’t know but if it means just greeting the faithful at the Church door, I’ll do it”. He converted bringing with him over 50 of his congregation. There are many extraordinarily courageous Protestants who have wonderful stories to tell - that is why I say they are our treasures.

Those who stubbornly resist will not find fulfillment.

Blessings:)
 
There are probably more examples in the Bible that highlight a God that is not omnipotent then there are that highlight a God that is.

God searches for Adam in the Garden when Adam is “hidden” from him.

God dwells in specific locations throughout the bible. (Comes down from the Mt., stays on the Mt., Leads the Jews in the wilderness, lives in the Temple…

He also needs to go down to Babel to see what is going on.

God feels the need to test Abraham., implying that He is uncertain of the outcome. …

In short, there are many examples of a personfied God with limited abilities in the Bible. And although there are many commentaries explaining why this is and that it is not really a limitation of God, the scripture says what the scripture says.
Valke,

The scriptue does not interpret itself.😉
You know that better than anyone here likely.
 
In that case, then Scott Hahn was not just attacked after he converted, he is still being attacked today, about 20 years later. He is also not just attacked by Protestants, but he is not liked by some Catholics who think he is too “evangelical.”

I have two of Scott’s books, Rome Sweet Home, and Hail, Holy Queen, the Mother of God in the Word of God. Neither one is a scholary work, which I was expecting. They are both very light reading.

In Rome Sweet Home, Scott describes his conversion process. He was a brilliant Protestant scholar who had a bright career as a Presbyterian minister and his wife was very eager to go into ministry with him. He was very anti-Catholic. Not tolerant of it at all. The journey to Catholicism began for him when his wife did a study of birth control and came to the conclusion it was immoral. The second piece that led him on that journey was understanding the “faith alone” doctrine is explicity denied by Scripture. And then finally, he had a student who asked him to show where in the Bible Sola Scriptura is taught. He thought the question was ridiculous, but as he dug into the question, his whole mindset changed, and after a few years of intensive study he converted.

His wife came very close to divorcing him and he lost all means of supporting himself. It was an extreme challenge for him; far from any sell out.
Nobody can satisfy everybody. Look at the people who scoff at Jesus!

There are things in life which NOBODY can avoid:
  • Taxes
  • Death
  • Ageing
  • consequences
  • responsibility
  • Go into the rain without an umbrella and you get WET
  • THE FINAL JUDGEMENT…
Like it or not! That day WILL come and as the old adage goes…“Hindsight…”

So the wise thing to do is to reflect, meditate, contemplate and pray, pray, pray!!!
 
I think that different people find God in different ways. The metaphor I like to use is the old city of Jerusalem, which has 8 different gates to the city. Each gate has its own story and each one leads to Jerusalem.
You must read Gerald Schroeder’s book “The Hidden Face of God”. There you will SEE God’s imnipotence. The precision with which he created the universe, how everything is held together in proper sequence, minutely constructed and chisled - masterfully crafted…

🙂
 
OK Everyone stop !!!

Ive just received a Pm from an admirer who has completely skuttled this thread -

’‘Purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9 and Luke 23:42-43. Jesus’ blood purifies us from all sin.’'

Game Over. Case Proven. I hang my head in shame. How can I possible hope to counter such erudite and eloquent arguement.

Oh, well. I tried my best. Thanks everyone - Im outa here …

**Hi Ag, 👋

Some people don’t understand irony and sarcasm!

Maybe this will convince you to stay?:confused:

Click on: New King James Bible** I agree with everything but don’t limit it to just the NKJV 😃
 
There are probably more examples in the Bible that highlight a God that is not omnipotent then there are that highlight a God that is.

God searches for Adam in the Garden when Adam is “hidden” from him.

God dwells in specific locations throughout the bible. (Comes down from the Mt., stays on the Mt., Leads the Jews in the wilderness, lives in the Temple…

He also needs to go down to Babel to see what is going on.

God feels the need to test Abraham., implying that He is uncertain of the outcome. …

In short, there are many examples of a personfied God with limited abilities in the Bible. And although there are many commentaries explaining why this is and that it is not really a limitation of God, the scripture says what the scripture says.
**
Hi Valke, 👋

So the scriptures aren’t infalliable. :eek: They need to be interpreted. Didn’t you know that? Catholics know this. The scriptures are inspired by God, every word is not true as written. I am glad no one wrote that during the flood it was “raining cats and dogs” .Protestants would swear that animals were falling from the skys! Sola Scriptura is a herecy! No one but a fool could ever believe in it, don’t you think? 👍 **
I think that different people find God in different ways. The metaphor I like to use is the old city of Jerusalem, which has 8 different gates to the city. Each gate has its own story and each one leads to Jerusalem.
**
I can agree with that analogue if you agree in it that Jerusalem is the Catholic church. You can get to it by many ways! Then through the real church peole find the real God! The Catholic church is 2,000 years old. Protestant denominations started imitating the real church and teaching their counterfeit beliefs less than 500 years ago! **

[SIGN]**coun ter feit 'kaunt-er-fit**: to imitate or copy closely, especially with intent to deceive.[/SIGN]
**
The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan. The scriptures in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .”
Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.” **
👍
 
Strangely enough, thats exactly what I said when I read his pm too :confused:

I would go back and link the posts that have addressed these for him, but why :confused: He’s obviously not read anything of the thread so why bother 😦
That he did not post on the thread means he is afraid of a challenge. We have a chicken in our midst:D
 
Yes, Benedictus - you have hit the nail on the head!

It takes courage to say “And to think I was wrong all these years”. One sees this on The Journey Home" series on EWTN. I remember a Baptist Minister who converted and at first he drove a lorry.

There is a book “No Price too High” by Alex Jones of his conversion. In a programme he was asked “And what are you going to do now” (at the time of his conversion he had saved enough money to get by for 4 years) and his response was “I don’t know but if it means just greeting the faithful at the Church door, I’ll do it”. He converted bringing with him over 50 of his congregation. There are many extraordinarily courageous Protestants who have wonderful stories to tell - that is why I say they are our treasures.

Those who stubbornly resist will not find fulfillment.

Blessings:)
I thought I’d post here a quote from Steve Wood’s conversion story in Surprised by Truth.

“Then it hit me. Protestants are blind to the fact that divorce and remarriage is unlawful because Protestantism itself is an unlawful divorce from the Church.”
 
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